| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 465 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi WalkOnWater, The original thread seemed to be getting pretty crowded, so I thought I'd open up a thread here for the five questions I asked you about in response to the idea of "Christ's last will" which you'd brought up. Blessings in Jesus Christ! Ramone
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| Cforrester Registered user Username: Cforrester Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Goodness! I get busy for a few days and come back to some serious catchup. I'm printing this thread and so far it's looking like about 50 pages. Great questions, btw. 2 Cor. 3:3-12 is very powerful and is very difficult for an Adventist or any other who believes we must still "keep" the 10 commandments. "Ministry of death" pretty much sums it up. Also see Ex. 24:7-8 and Ex. 34:28 on the old covenant and Ten Commandments. Deut. 4:13 also. Deut 5:2-5 says the covenant was made with Israel, not with their fathers (Abraham, father of faith, for example). Hehe - but maybe all of this was already said 10 times. Let me do some reading... | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 271 Registered: 6-2006  |
Ramone, thank you for posting your questions again! I really hope that Walkonwater will try and truthfully answer them. For me, I'll be studying them for my own need to understand, and to equip myself biblically as well as our kids. I've said this before, but this old covenant/new covenant is something I've been taught, but embarrasingly taken for granted. The 10 commandments are NOT what sets us apart and makes us Christians. (As Mwh likes to say), Jesus is truth! Leigh Anne | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2002 |
By the way, if you're reading this like I am and hoping that a good study gets going, please, please drop what you're doing right now and pray for us. We're embarking down a Scriptural road that has many blocks--or veils--in the way, and more than ever we need to lovingly lift up in prayer our brothers & sisters who begin to study these Scriptures. If things progress and do take off, please continue to bathe us in prayer. Thanks. In His love, Ramone | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 274 Registered: 6-2006 |
Ramone, done! How fortunate for anyone to take a Bible study from you. What a blessing. I can see that God is using you already.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, I sincerely appreciate your spirit and your desire to approach this study with a great deal of prayer Thank you for the challenge and God bless us all as we study this important subject. YOUR FIVE QUESTIONS As I have time, I will attempt to answer your five questions. Remember, I am not a theologian. I have no formal training in theology. I have no positions in the church except I lead a prayer fellowship. I am simply a lay person who loves Jesus. In my research and answers, I have no plan to consult anything SDA whatsoever. Frankly I do not really know how Ellen White or the Church would respond to your questions. It may take some time to get through this because I have to study and pray and think about it. I will assume comments on this thread will be constructive and uplifting rather than critical or judgmental. Before I begin, I need to lay a foundation. To lay that foundation, it may seem I start in a strange place. SEX AND SALVATION Imagine, if you can, a society in which people write a lot about sex. They accurately describe it, enthuse about how wonderful it is, but have never experienced it. Thatís an allegorical picture of the Christian church today. Instead of sex however, we find people in the church who can describe salvation but have not experienced it. They can define the words, describe the experience, and speak of the love and peace that comes in Jesus. But they have not actually experienced what they are talking about. Now you are probably thinking, ìThere he goes again, being totally judgmental!î Actually what I say is based on good authority. The Bible speaks of people who draw near to God with their words but their heart is far from Him. The Children of Israel, for example, knew ABOUT God. But Moses KNEW God. Whether it be sex or salvation, words in a book are, at best, a poor substitute for the actual experience. SEX, SATAN, AND SALVATION It is such a shame that sex has been so perverted by Satan. I believe one reason God gave sex was to help us see how intimate our relationship with Him is to be. God wants to literally enter us and in an explosion of love he wants to plant a seed deep in our soul that will eventually give birth to a brand new baby Christian. PAUL AND SALVATION The Apostle Paul was a very brave man. He is the only one in the Bible who sets out to analyze this process of spiritual conception, pregnancy, birth, and life in Christ. In other words, Paul tries to use human words to describe an experience so incredible it makes sex look like tidily winks by comparison. Such an attempt faces at least two dangers. 1. As we have seen, words can NEVER adequately describe an experience. 2. People can think they have had the experience because they know the words. HE's DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND? Some of Paulís peers commented on how hard Paul is to understand. No duh!! He is trying to use words to describe an experience that is miraculous to its very core. No wonder there has been so much controversy down through the ages over what salvation is, how it works, and what part I and God play in it. Paul is not to blame for the confusion. If anyone is qualified to describe what salvation is, itís Paul. He lived and breathed it. The problem is that he is using words to describe an experience thatís ultimately indescribable, it can only be experienced. THATíS WHAT GOD WANTS And thatís the way God made salvation. He wanted no one to simply draw near with their words but to draw near with their heart and experience the Experience. Just as a book on sex can never produce a baby, knowing the words for salvation can never produce the new birth. So why do I think this is important in our study? Itís important because: 1. Words imperfectly convey a larger truth or experience 2. Words can be interpreted differently by different people 3. A personís life and actions can often teach us more than words alone. 4. Jesus Christ must always be our touchstone, our benchmark. John 1:1 tells us, ìIn the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.î This text elegantly tells us that in the life of Christ we see WORDS and EXPERIENCE perfectly combined. In fact, in Christ, the WORD and the EXPERIENCE are one and the same thing! No where else in the history of mankind do we find a place where WORDS equal EXPERIENCE. ONLY IN JESUS is that found!! Paul was an incredible Christian. He was guided by the Holy Spirit to live and write the magna carta of the Christian faith. But Paul was not THE WORD. That was Jesus Christ. And thus the life and words of Jesus Christ are the gold standard by which all else is judged. WalkOnWater Next part of the Foundation will be: ìThe Two Contradictory Polls of Truthî, coming soon to a computer near you. (I gotta write it first so it wonít be too soon) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2990 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ramone, For my worship this morning I printed your questions to WoW and studied them. Thank you for showing me the covenants and giving me the texts. I will remember you in my prayers. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 476 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi WalkOnWater, The subject of the man Paul is a very interesting one, but it is one that I hope we can save for later. What I'm writing and asking you questions about is not the notion of Paul's will, but rather God's "last will and testament." The subject is much larger, and we will find clear understanding of it in the books of Hebrews, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Ezekiel, Luke, as well as those of Paul. I'm coming from the position that God has woven a very clear picture of "His will" into Scripture, and that Scripture as a whole testifies in unision to His "will". So I'd respectfully request that we not get into dissecting respective authors at the moment, but rather would like to approach the Scripture as if the Spirit will give us a clear message from any of these books. Is it okay to go back to the five questions? Blessings, Ramone | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, please bear with me. In order to make sense of what I will be saying about the "Five Questions", I need to lay a foundation. I have posted Part One of the Foundation. Part Two will come as soon as I can get it written out. Then I will be ready to cover the questions you have asked. What I am saying is that it is important to understand my basic assumptions before we start the actual answers. This is where many people get into arguments over theology. They fail to undersand the basic assumptions and thus they can never agree on the answers. I want to avoid that kind of misunderstanding. In the mean time, you might study through what I have said and try to understand my basic assumptions. If I am not clear on them, please let me know. Thanks for understanding, WalkOnWater | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4906 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, I don't mean to deflect from your appeal to Walk to answer your questions. I, too, would like to read his answers. But after reading what you wrote above, Walkóit's clear that your view of Scripture is not the same as mine nor, I suspect, that of most of us here. To assign more validity to one Bible author than another is to destroy the foundation of Scripture as the basis for discussion. The entire Bible is the Word of Godónot just Jesus' words. Jesus' words didn't describe the administration of the New Covenant in the same detail as Paul's because Jesus hadn't yet completed His mission of substitution when he spoke His words. Jesus was born and lived under the lawóeverything he said before His death was veiled because He hadn't offered the sacrifice that inaugurated the New Covenant and revealed His fulfillment of the law. Jesus Himself taught Paul, and you cannot tease apart Paul's writings from Jesus' words without doing violence to the word of God. Either the entire Bible is equally God's word, or the Bible is unreliable and we might as well discard it as a foundation for our doctrines. Paul is not confusing or enigmatic. Peter is the only person who mentioned Paul's being hard to understand, and that one comment was in the context of Paul's letters containing "some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) IOW, Peter's comment was NOT primarily that Paul is hard to understand, but that unstable and ignorant people distort his meaty passagesóand this distorting is their destruction. No one gives us a pass on misusing or misunderstanding Paul. If your foundation is not the Bible alone as the inerrant word of God, you will not emerge with Biblical truth. And in your post above, your description of salvation and how to understand it left me feeling confused and restless. Salvation is NOT complicatedóand yes, we need Paul in order to explain it. He is not in opposition to Jesusóand what he wrote was inspired by God. Not just his thoughts, but the actual concepts he wrote. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 489 Registered: 7-2000 |
1. Words imperfectly convey a larger truth or experience ------------------------------- WOW, if you want to lay a foundation, you need to start (I would think) by showing why you believe certain things. This is a statement, without an backing from the Bible and is one that most on this forum would not agree with---at least as it applies to the Bible. Further, WOW wrote: 2. Words can be interpreted differently by different people ---------------------------------------- The Bible says that 'no scripture is of a private interpretation', the interpretation comes from God. So, although the statement you wrote may be true of mans' writings, I can't see it applying to the Bible. Finally,WOW wrote: 3. A personís life and actions can often teach us more than words alone. ---------------------------------------- That's a very Catholic concept which I find odd for an Adventist to be espousing. I also find it odd to divorce 'words'--from 'action'. To speak is to produce words which in turn is an action. The only connection I see is to examine and see if what is spoken and what is done are similar or the same. Taking your statement at face value seems to allow for evaluating a message or spiritual claim by something other than Bible. Bill | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 117 Registered: 8-2006  |
Colleen, Just in the last few months I have heard several SDAs, friends and family, put a lot of emphisis on how hard Paul is to understand. Or they will say his writings are confusing. It makes me wonder if it was a big issue in their quarterly lessons. Having visited several other churches now I can say that I have not heard any other denomination put so much emphisis on the words of Peter "...some things that are hard to understand..." Have you? Do you find this amusing? I do. Why is it that other churches do not seem to have a problem understanding Paul? Just a thought. | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2006  |
Timmy, Colleen and all, I am finding that some of my still SDA friends are saying the same thing. They repeat what you said Timmy about Paul and how difficult he is to understand. I always request that when they read the Bible they first ask for the Holy Spirit to help their understanding. I therefore also question if there is a push to lessen Pauls words with in SDA churches. Alan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2002 |
Walk, I want to respect what you've written and "bear with you", however I think the direction that your "foundation" will head will make things a lot less focused and more complicated. It is a very good discussion to have, but it is kind of missing the simple beauty of the thing I'm pointing to... The thing I'm pointing to is a topic that you brought up: Christ's "Last will and testament" It is this that I have questioned you about and that I would like you to study with me, because the concept of a "last will and testament" is spoken of throughout Scripture. Further, it is so clearly spoken of by a multitude of witnesses and different authors (the Holy Spirit being the Chief Writer) that we need only submit to God's Word and ask Him to teach us. (One needn't be a theologian to probe into this topic, either.) Again, I brought up the topic because you introduced the concept of Christ's "last will & testament", but gave a description of it which I thought could be greatly aided by knowing that and I wanted to point out to you that such a thing is actually clearly and beautifully defined in Scripture. ***** On the note of "Foundation", Jesus Christ Himself is the foundation. Not only the divinely inspired historical record of His life, but even more so the living Son of God who is in heaven seated at the right hand of Father. Paul wrote that Christ is the one foundation, and no one can lay any other foundation (1 Cor. 3). Paul also wrote that the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles & prophets. In other words, the foundation is also the prophetic writings which point to Christ, and the testimony of the apostles who witnessed Christ -- in Jesus' prayer recorded in John 17, He prayed "for all those who will believe in Me through their message". All of these things are testified to us by the one Holy Spirit, the one who (as Peter said) carried the holy men of old and spoke through them -- they spoke not their own words, but the words of God. When Christ was about to leave for the Cross, He told His disciples, For a time, according to His own word, He could not speak to them plainly because they were not able to bear it. Yet through His Holy Spirit, He said He would speak plainly. Certain things had to wait until after the Cross. We see this in the way He spoke to His disciples after the resurrection at the end of Luke: Now, I have said all of this because I believe the consistent testimony of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the foundation, and that the Holy Spirit testifies a loud trumpet blast that Jesus Christ is our salvation. The Spirit's testimony is One throughout Scripture. Christ lived and walked among men, and though He spoke to them many things that were plain, according to His own word they were not able to understand fully until after the Cross. Out of necessity He held back from telling them everything because they could not bear it. Then after He was raised, He explained the fulfillment of everything in Himself to His disciples. He entrusted this testimony to the disciples, and He prayed to the Father that we would all believe in Him (and be one in Him) through the testimony of His apostles. I don't want to put the writings of the New Testament in a kind of hierarchy of inspiration because Christ Himself said that we would all believe (and become one in Him) through the testimony of the apostles, and that He would speak non-figuratively about Himself & Father to them (and us) through His Holy Spirit (which was poured out after He ascended to heaven). And all along, God has testified through the Spirit in Scripture, and this testimony is one beautiful whole. ***** Now, bear with me. May we try a little experiment? I know that you said people interpret words differently, but let's not quibble about different ways to read from the outset. I would consider it a tremendous honor if you did not reply to the "foundation" thing I just wrote, but rather answered the five questions I asked. I believe that should we run into any interpretation problems, that we are mature enough to handle them when they come along instead of having to spend so much time "revving up", so to speak. I believe we can address interpretive problems as they come along. WalkOnWater, my wife is missing me as I spend time on the computer now. I typed out the five questions and re-posted them in this thread so that we could talk about them. Please honor me by sharing your answers to the five questions as soon as you can. Blessings in Christ, Ramone | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Colleen You wrote, "He (Paul) is not in opposition to Jesusóand what he wrote was inspired by God. Not just his thoughts, but the actual concepts he wrote." Colleen, I completely agree with your statement. YES! Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. YES! he was given revelation from God. YES! the entire Bible is God breathed and inspired by the Holy Spirit. But what I find curious is that you appear to be afraid I am putting Jesus above Paul. Well let's look at that. Was Paul THE WORD INCARNATE or was it Jesus? Did Paul write the New Covenant with his Blood or did Jesus? Was Paul ìGOD IN THE FLESHî or was it Jesus? Did Paul lay down his heavenly glory to be born and live and die on this dark planet or was it Jesus? Did Paul's life and death bring victory over Satan and usher in the Kingdom of God or was it Jesus? Did Paul go back to heaven to prepare a place for us or was that Jesus? Was Paul the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world or was it Jesus? The entire book of Hebrews is dedicated to the fact of Jesusí greatness. Hebrews 1:1-4 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Was Paul ìheir of all thingsî? Was Paul the ìradiance of Godís gloryî? Was Paul the ìexact representationî of God? Does Paul ìsustain all things by his powerful wordî? Did Paul ìprovide purification for sinî? Did Paul ìsit down at the right hand of the Majesty of heavenî? Was Paul ìsuperior to angelsî? NO!! But praise God!! Jesus was and does and did!! Colleen, I am NOT knocking Paul down. I am not degrading Scripture or the prophets. Like Hebrews, I am attempting to lift Jesus up to His rightful place. If we cannot even agree that Jesusí life and words are the Gold Standard against which all else is tested, then I fear we do not have enough common ground upon which to discuss these issues. Remember, the great difference between Jesus and the other Bible writers is this. The prophets and apostles all tell me what my relationship with God SHOULD BE. Jesus didnít simply tell me what I SHOULD BE, He WAS what I SHOULD BE. I choose Jesus as my Savior and as my Gold Standard. All clear thinking about God and salvation begins there. WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 82 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Loneviking: Lone quotes WOW, "Words imperfectly convey a larger truth or experience" Lone responds to WOW, "This is a statement, without an backing from the Bible and is one that most on this forum would not agree with---at least as it applies to the Bible." WOW response to Lone: My statement does not need Bible backing to prove its truth. Words do not equal experience. If words equal experience then babies could be produced by words alone. If words could perfectly explain truth then there should be no disagreement on what those words mean. There are hundreds of denominations which arose because people could not agree what Bible words mean. Words imperfectly portray truth. Only under the guidance of the Holy Spirit can words be illuminated so we see the truth they are attempting to reveal. Words themselves are imperfect. ONLY in God do we see WORDS and TRUTH and EXPERIENCE equal. When God spoke, IT WAS DONE!!! God is the only One who can speak a baby into existence. But for you and me, words imperfectly represent truth and experience. ________________________________________ Lone quotes WOW, "Words can be interpreted differently by different people" Lone responds to WOW: "The Bible says that 'no scripture is of a private interpretation', the interpretation comes from God. So, although the statement you wrote may be true of mans' writings, I can't see it applying to the Bible." WOW responds to Lone: To say that words can be interpreted differently by different people is self evident. This is true of the Bible too. Adventists claim to believe the whole Bible. Formers claim to believe the whole Bible. Christians in general claim to believe the whole Bible. Yet different groups come to totally different conclusions as to what the words of the Bible mean. _____________________________________________ Lone quotes WOW, "Actions can often teach us more than words alone." Lone's response to WOW: That's a very Catholic concept which I find odd for an Adventist to be espousing. I also find it odd to divorce 'words'--from 'action'. To speak is to produce words which in turn is an action. The only connection I see is to examine and see if what is spoken and what is done are similar or the same. WOW's response to Lone: To say that actions can often teach us more than words alone is not Catholic it is common sense. If I say I love my wife and then turn around and cheat on her, what did my actions reveal about my words? ___________________________________ Lone says to WOW: Taking your statement at face value seems to allow for evaluating a message or spiritual claim by something other than Bible. WOW responds to Lone: Not at all. What I am saying is that when we disagree on what the Bible says, we must always take that disagreement to the Gold Standard, Jesus Christ. Only in Jesus do we find that words are perfectly equal to actions. That applies to anything we read. For example, we MUST NEVER interpret Jesus' words and life by Ellen White, or any Biblical or non biblical source. Instead Ellen and everyone else, must be tested by the Gold Standard, Jesus Christ. WalkOnWater | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1602 Registered: 10-2004  |
Walk, yes you certainly are degrading Scripture. You wouldn't have to be asking those questions about Paul if you realized that Paul is not the author of the epistles. Jesus Christ is the Word, and if you really believe that the epistles of Paul are the WORD of God, then you would see that they have no less authority than the words of Jesus. Why? Because they ARE the words of Jesus.
Again, that shows that you don't believe that the words of Scripture ARE God's words. That is the difference between Adventism and Christianity. But, if you're so afraid to believe Paul's inspired words, then you should be equally afraid to believe Jesus' words. Paul got all of his teachings from Jesus' teachings. And Jesus is the one who said that the Law was only until John (Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16), and that once He fulfilled it, it would pass away (Matthew 5:17-18). Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2991 Registered: 3-2004 |
Walk, I am confused by you. You take time to address Colleen and Loneviking and you take time to address Ramone. BUT you have not answered the 5 questions Ramone asked you not long after you started posting here? Just my confusion! Diana | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Jeremy: I apologize if I have not made myself clear. I believe Paul and ALL Scripture writers are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe everything in the Bible is in compete and total harmony with THE WORD, Jesus Christ. I fully believe Paul received the gospel by direct revelation from Jesus. I believe all Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable, etc. I believe that the words of Scripture are God's Words. I believe that in the Old Testament we see the gospel ENFOLDED. I believe that in the New Testament we see the gospel UNFOLDED. I believe there is PERFECT HARMONY between what Paul and Jesus say and that perfect harmony also extends to the whole of Scripture. All of Scripture is God breathed so it is ALL in perfect harmony. I would hope no one on this tread would disagree with any of this. But here is the problem? The Scripture is in perfect harmony but you and I are not. You read the Bible and come to one conclusion. I read the very same words, in the very same Bible, and I come to another conclusion. So the question is this. How do we resolve the disagreement? There is nothing wrong with the Bible we read. The problem is with our understanding of what we read. Now the most popular way of handling a disagreement is to assume "I am right and you are wrong". But since I am a sinful human being, that is not a good assumption on my part. There is a better way to handle disagreements. That is what I am trying to present on this thread. God bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Diana, I am not ignoring the questions asked by Ramone. But when building a house one starts with the foundation. If the builders cannot agree on the foundation, it becomes difficult to work on other parts of the house. That is where we are right now. We are trying to lay a foundation so we can get to the important questions asked by Ramone. God bless, WalkOnWater |
