| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2006 |
I was reading through the post ìWhat books(s) got you questioning, the tread started by Javagirl and it reminded me of the reason why am here on this forum. Thanks to all who responded to Javagirls post, it helped quite a bit. The reason I am here is to try to understand the Adventist, I wonít go into further details but to say I arrived here through a conversation I had with Dale Ratzlaff, he mentioned colleen and ìProclamationî so here I am. I have never been Adventist but somehow I have been thrown into their company, I wonít bore you with the details of that. As I conversed with Dale or it could have been another former Adventist Pastor, I made this remark ìI just do not see how a people could read their Bible to the extent these folk read it years on end and still be deceived, it just blows my mind completelyî. And I had to come to the point and ask this question ìWhat am I looking at here?î ìHow do I deal with it?î And so I need to get back to why I came here in the first place. I enjoy batting the old theological ball back and forth with you good folk, but I really need to quit doing that and get on with what lead me here in the first place. I really do not wish to impose on you; however I need to determine exactly what it is I am dealing with. So here are some points that I have arrived at in my association with the people. 1. They are in no way an illiterate people; many of them have college degrees, in medicine and the sciences, so they are not stupid. 2. They do not seem dishonest in any way. 3. They seem to have a loving spirit about them with the exception of one I know. 4. Salvation as I know it seems to sail right over their head. Now I feel from reading your post, that Salvation came to most of you when your eyes were finally opened to the word of God and the truth of the Gospel and I so coming to this conclusion, I need to be concerned for them for they have not received Salvation. Now this is as a general rule you understand. Now even though I am a Pentecostal, born again into the Pentecostal movement simply because God did it that way thatís all, I do not get too deep into spirit-ism and I want to make that clear here. I do believe there are demonic spirits at work and hereís why Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I always use the King James version in discussion simply because there are King James onlyerís out there although not many here. So on to the questions. 1. Is it some kind of demonic spirit deceiving the people, keeping them blinded so that they are unable to see? 2. Or are they being deliberate in their own deceit? And therefore want to deceive those around? 3. If a spirit of deceit is at work here, what am I up against? I have studied the ìtheologyî if you can even call it that, of these folk for over three years so I already know what they believe and again I must state, as a general rule, not trying to pin any one person down you understand. I donít have the ammunition you folk do, but I need to have something. I associate with these people on a daily basis so itís not like itís a casual thing, so do you see my need here? I do appreciate everyone here, letting me air out on your forum and spout off a little, and thank you kindly for putting up with me. River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 618 Registered: 7-2004  |
Interesting topic, River. I think you're hitting on an important point of why for so many SDA's the veil remains unlifted, to put it in the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians 3. My personal opinion is that it has something to do with the fruits of a false prophet whose visions came from the wrong source. And so I would agree that it is indeed spiritual deception. However, I would want to clarify your statement where you said, "I need to be concerned for them for they have not received Salvation." I don't believe that would be true of every SDA. For example, in my case, I know for a fact that I came to understand much of grace and had a huge awakening experience about 8 years before leaving. And the more I look back on how God has worked in my life, I think it's fairly safe to say that I was born again when I was baptized at age 12. Just because someone is born again doesn't mean they are instantly no longer deceived in any area, or that they instantly understand all truth. God works with each one of us over a lifetime, and it often seems He works very slowly. The way I would probably summarize it is that people can become born again believers in whatever deception or error they find themselves in. Then the journey begins, and just as the timing of the new birth is different for every believer, so the timing of when one ends up at various places in their journey is also different for every believer. But for whatever His reasons are, I do believe God is in control of all of it. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 123 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen, Raven. I agree. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2006 |
thank you Raven, I did try to make it clear that I was not trying to pin any one person down, I was speaking of the general population, I do fully realize that some are saved. Pardon me for pulling away from the point I needed to get at with that statement. I did not mean the statement to hurt anyone and I should not have made it. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2006 |
River, I appreciate your being here! As far as what to do, pray that the Lord will show them His truth, be their friend, tell and show what Jesus has done for you, how you rest secure in His love and gift of eternal life in Him alone. Pray the veil will be lifted and they will be freed from the spiritual stronghold that is connected with a false prophet. Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3009 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, As long as the the SDA cling to EGW and her writings, they will be blinded to much of salvation. Jesus can reach down and teach them about salvation, but as long as they cling to EGW, they will have a problem. As Raven has written, it is spiritual deception. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2006 |
Oh, and remember to separate THEM from THEIR BELIEFS. I say that because it is my own struggle. Blessings, Susan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 619 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, River, I also appreciate your being here! In addition to your valuable insights, I love the comic relief you often bring! Kind of like what Susans said "separate THEM from THEIR BELIEFS", salvation per se isn't the focus. We can't easily know who is and isn't born again - I can't even say with certainty the moment I was born again! But there are many hurting born-again believers in the SDA church who either don't know they're born again or are afraid their actions will jeopardize whether they remain born again or not. And most are hurting in some way from the powerful delusions of EGW. We need to be prepared to point out the truth about Jesus, for the times when someone is ready to receive and understand it. And we also can't know when that point is, so we just try to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit on when to speak up and when to be quiet, and leave the results with God. I know, easier said than done... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you, Yes I do separate the person from their BELIEFS. I will give you an example here that might convey to you where I am coming from, one day one of my Adventist friends (Actually the one closest to me) said"Oh I do hope that the Lord will see fit to save me!" and I said "(name)don't you know you are already saved?" he did not answer and my heart goes out to these people. As for pinpointing the minute or hour I was saved, I can,t do that either Raven, if you read my story I suppose the Calvinist would love that one. Ha. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 279 Registered: 4-2006  |
I'm not a former SDA, just a concerned Christian. I attended church for about 5 years before I believed and was born again. That prompted me to leave the Church I attended (Apostolic Church/Denmark), Gods hand was moving, now I'm in a Lutheran Church which I believe has a better foundation, but I believe in the Church as the body of Jesus Christ of all who believe he caries their sin. From my own experience I did not know Christ for 5 years of regular church going, but fortunately Jesus knows who are his and saved me. When I believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ I was set free and transformed, I talk with many SDAs and they are not living out the Gospel, many are putting up stumbling blocks instead, the sabbath, tithing, food etc. It is of utmost importance that they too hear the Gospel of Christ Jesus. I agree it is a spiritual battle, praying is important but we should also learn to battle with the Sword of God, His Word, the Bible. Jesus was the Word and people felt the Sword, Poul was a great warrior as well. Also I feel so good that I can rest in the fact that the battle is already won, God will reach whoever is his. Christ you are the truth, men are liars! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3010 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I also like the "separate them from their beliefs". I have very dear SDA friends in VA and I do separate them from their beliefs. As I look back on my life, I think God brought me to an awareness of His saving grace in my 12 step program. That is where I learned how much God loves me and cares about me in every facet of my life. Thank you God for that teaching. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 205 Registered: 4-2002  |
River, I spent the first half of my life in the deception of Adventism, and the rest in discovering just how deceived I had been. In dealing with SDA's and any other unbelievers, I ALWAYS point to Jesus and the cross. Never let the discussion get "side tracked" to one of their favorite "truths". Jesus is the only way. Jesus is the only truth. Jesus is the only life. He made the claim and HE is either a liar or it is completely true. When you speak of the special nature of the cross, the entire Easter event, you are speaking of things they are not well grounded in. They will try to pull back to their comfort zone. Bring them back to the cross. Remember the story of the dediples who were sent out to preach and heal? Right after they returned the gospels tell of of the feeding of te five thousand. Jesus then get's their eyes back to the main point. "Who do the crowds say that I am?". After several quite silly answers, he asked the most important question anyone will ever be asked, "Who do YOU say that I am?" It is the beginning and ending of all witnessing. Who do you think Jesus is? What is He to you? They have to really unederstant HIM before they can understand salvation. Look only to Him and never, NEVER, N E V E R, let anyone take your eyes from the cross. Did I say NEVER? I am old and sometimes I fail to emphasize things enough. In HIS service <>< Thomas | ||
| Ardyj Registered user Username: Ardyj Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2006  |
Spirit of Deceit. What an appropriate title for this thread. I truly believe that most of the SDA's I have contact with are truly deceived. The passage in 2Cor.3 literally leaped off the page for me a couple years ago when I left the SDA church. The veil is a very real thing with the people in the SDA church, but if one said that to them, they would immediately almost yell at you that you were wrong. They firmly believe they have "The Truth". But the great majority of them cannot tell you where these beliefs originate. There is such an indoctrination of these folks that they have no true idea where this "truth" comes from. They say it comes from the Bible, but most do not know their so-called "proof texts" or where to find them. (Guess what! They aren't there anyway!) They simply do not realize these beliefs are from EGW. Most of them in my little former church have no idea whatsoever of the pervasiveness of EGW. There seemed to be a time when EGW was "put on the back burner" so to speak. At least, that's what it seemed like to me. When I left the SDA's, the few that asked me why said EGW meant very little to them, one even went so far as to say she didn't not believe in her at all, but still believed the SDA church has "the Truth. I think EGW is being brought forward again, but I'm really not sure of this, as I haven't been back to that little church except to play the piano for them once in a while and I leave before any sermon starts. SDA's say they read their Bible. Those that do, read their Bible in accordance with the outline presented to them in their quarterly and/or SDA Bible studies. In other words, just what they're told to read. And if they do read the Bible apart from these guidelines, they say they don't understand it. Hence, my previous mention of the veil. My heart is very sad for these folk; the deception is so deep. | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2005 |
Here is another problem with reaching some SDAs They are taught the doctrines with a verse here or there and some extra stuff brought in, and they don't really study the Bible book by book and verse by verse with the contexts. They are careully taught (and believe) they have the "truth)so may not take you seriously, and don't really seek other opinion, or trust them, since they "know".And never read a book that is critical of SDA"s or has another point of view-- won't waste their time like that. The SDA church has a strong hold on many of them. and yes, it is deceptive. I feel discouraged just writing this but prayer that God will give you the right words to say and the wisdom when to say them and pray the the veil be lifted from their minds. And then there is my sister in law who would probably say she believes in EGW but I don't think she has ever read a word she has written and doesn't care and reads her Bible and believes she is saved and goes faithfully to the SDA church and doesn't even realize what a rebel she is--if you asked her she'd deny it! There are people like that. | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2006 |
Absolutely this is a spiritual issue. I have had to ask myself why I was so blind for so many years since I'm reasonably intelligent and well educated. The veil describes it perfectly. You asked, "Or are they being deliberate in their own deceit?" The members who believe in Adventism are not being deceitful but really believe what they've been taught. There are a lot of "cultural" SDAs out there who appear to go to church mainly to visit friends or because they've always done it or perhaps it's "fire insurance" because the Sabbath is a salvation issue. A few years before I consciously started studying my way out I had the opportunity to attend the Southern Union Evangelism Conference for about 3 years. This is a major conference that draws evangelists from all over the US. I was a lay person, one of the few there. Over this course of time I did hear these admissions to the front line pastor/evangelist complaints: 1) Yes, we know we can't support the SDA church as the remnant church and 2) Yes, we know that our mode of baptizing after all the Bible studies and into a denomination doesn't follow the Bible. Obviously, there is some definite deceit going on at the professional levels. Perhaps one of the former pastors could help out on this here. As to reaching your SDA friends, first understand that on some level they look at you as being less a mature Christian than they are since they have "the truth" and you don't. The gospel is very convuluted and complicated within Adventism so I would suggest that even asking your friends about what the Gospel is may open up a conversation. And continually bringing Jesus before them as Thomas said. Adventists don't realize it, but Jesus is hugely minimized within Adventism. Aliza | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2006 |
Thomas, What you said about being uncomfortable with Jesus was so true for me!!! As an SDA, when someone would talk about Jesus and how the ONLY way to heaven was through His blood ALONE, I remember thinking, no, that's not the only way, you have to understand and accept all the "truth" including Sabbath, eating, the IJ and the close of probation, etc etc etc. and I wanted to bring the conversation to those things. I believe Jesus truly is minimized in Adventism, and we must raise Him to His proper place. "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto ME' Susan (Message edited by SusanS on November 11, 2006) | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2006  |
River, For me it was seeing how people not of Adventist background lived their lives. I have been sheltered in various Adventist communities most of my life. I think this is a fairly common trend to "live with our own" so to speak. A few years ago I met Randy. He is of Hispanic origin, raised Catholic and later converted to Southern Baptist. He now attends a non-denom church. He showed me Christ character living through him. Up until this point in my life I did not believe that those from other denominations truly had this ability (I was very sheltered). Once I realized that Randy and all those he introduced me to were living in Christ, I began to change. I think by showing Adventist aquaintences love you may break down the walls of separation. That is how it worked for me. Alan | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2006 |
if jesus isn't the center of adventism, then what is the most important thing, keeping the sabbath? food laws? the two things combined? to me, that is why it is so difficult to talk to my in-laws (or even my own husband) about their faith in or relationship with Christ. i really can't get a grip on where they are coming from and find some common ground. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 383 Registered: 7-2005  |
River, There is a basic heresy which constitutes the root of deception in adventism: soul sleep and annihilationism. I will recommend you three articles signed by Colleen. 1. Radio interview available at http://www.exadventist.com/audio/stlouisradio/Colleen%20Tinker.mp3 2."The human spirit: breath or core Identity" available at http://rtinker.powweb.com/Proclamation2004_SepOct.pdf. 3. "If what you believe is NOT BIBLICAL Would you want to know?" from the current issue of Proclamation My friend Dennis wrote his story of leaving adventist at http://www.truthorfables.com/Beyond%20Adventism.htm, and I will quote from his testimony what I think is one of the best evaluations of the self-deception in adventism. Regarding annihilationism, he said
The materials I recommended you shows how every christian doctrine is twisted in adventism: God's love, God's justice, His sovereignity,man's nature, sin, salvation, regeneration, principles of interpreting the Bible, spiritual battle, spiritual discernment, etc. The deception comes from the fact that you are not aware that this doctrine, like a fog permeats everything you see in the Bible. You can hear all the day the message of salvation without realizing that salvation implies that you have a soul to save, a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. This is the doctrine which usually is the last doctrine which is renounced by adventists. This is a proof of how deceptive is, because it takes a long road for adventists to renounce it. It's like a glue which is in the way to a full submission to the authority of the Bible, and to a sovereign God. This is why it's so hard to communicate the gospel to adventists. Because of the spiritual hold this doctrine has on them, they are blinded to the true meaning of the words of the Bible. Because every christian doctrine is perverted, what they hear when you talk with them is filtered through these lens, which take away the ability to understand the christian truths as they really are. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you Diana, Thomas, Ardyj, Benevento, Aliza, Susan. Makes one wonder how this Spirit of deception got in, in the first place, as I said I do believe there are deceiving spirits in the world. (Eph 6:12 KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Here is what you all said to me in a nutshell (Eph 6:17 KJV) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Notice what it says up there Principalitie(s) Power(s) ruler(s) high place(s). Now unlike Adventist I have no problem with Paul ìHe da manî. Now if Paul had of meant one power he would have said so. So this indicates to me there are many, in fact I canít remember where it was where it talks about spirits gone out to deceive. Oh, hereís one (1 Tim 4:1 KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Anyhoo thatís what this situation reminds of. Now take note: as I said I do not get into spirit-ism but however distasteful this subject is, that does appear what I am up against. Now if a blind man stumbles we donít say ìHey, watch where your goingî, but instead help him if we can. Somehow these ìSpiritsî had to get a toehold and I keeping wondering how. I do think that some of the people in places of authority have ìgiven inî to these spirits, possibly to hold onto positions of power (follow the money/prestiege) and will pay for that with their soul. Kind of high priced, would you say? I am not concerned with them but with the ones who toil night and day making bricks. Some may manage to get a little straw now and again to ease the process, and if all I can do is sneak in a little straw then maybe I will have done something. |
