Post Number: 568
|Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2011 - 7:30 am: || |
What do you think?
Are there 3 types of Formers?
Converted/Processed through Bible: Processed or processing out to Christianity (through the Word)
Unconverted/Unprocessed: Still Adventist-thinking, not Adventist practicing. Doing their own thing.
Uncoverted/Processed without Bible: Convinced that Adventism is wrong and so is Christianity in general.
Post Number: 1278
|Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2011 - 9:59 am: || |
I think it would be pretty hard to group types into any one category and I suspect there are more than 3 categorys.
Former Catholics converted to SDA, then processing out to go into: Protestant, Catholic or Agnostic.
Generational Adventist who are rebelling or processing out.
Former unchurched Christians who were recruited into SDA and now burned out, processing out. Unconverted ??
Slogan Christians, brought into SDA with neat colorful presentations, but slowly withered from exposure to legalsim , drudgery and life problems.
The fact that people are processing out of a paticular church is probably common to all faiths. The reasons are varied.
False teachers, bad theology, detection of error.
Stagnation, backsliding, falling into sin.
Distractions, wealth, idols.
Problems, health, loss, suffereing, bitterness.
Confusion, conflicts, emptyness.
Former Adventists do not have an exclusive.
Do you think these formers are saved in any event? What about formers of other Christian faiths. Are they still saved?
If in fact all Christian faiths call upon Christ as their Saviour, regardless of how mixed up their theology gets. Are they still saved.
Paul said if he or angels were to preach any other gospel, let them be accursed. Is that literal? Does that mean, those saved to the uttermost, those who trust that nothing (including error of theology or their sins) can pluck them out of Christ's saving grace.
Are they still saved?
If one fails to pass a theology IQ test? Does Christ still save.
Post Number: 12918
|Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2011 - 11:03 pm: || |
Jim, there is a difference between an Adventist and a Christian. In a nutshell, Adventism is a cult. That means that people who leave it are in a different category than are people who leave other "denominations".
Within Christianity, people don't talk about former Baptists, former Methodists, former Anglicans, etc. A person is either a born again Christian, or he isn't. Adventism teaches a whole different worldview, and people who leave have to re-learn reality.
Cloudwatcher, I think that's a very good analysis. Those are the general categories I see...
Post Number: 381
|Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2011 - 8:06 am: || |
I prefer to reduce complexity into simpler forms, but my intuition says that Cloudwatcher's use of her variables is over-simplifying things. While useful, it probably only captures some of the cases. To capture the other outer cases would introduce too much complexity. It is more likely that a simple, but different, table exists.
The given table attempts to unite one way to look at things on the left side of the colon with another way on the right side. Although it is mostly sound, there are a few cases where things can be crossed up. For instance, if we are relying on thinking and Bible reading alone (no Spirit component in the understanding of scripture), then the upper left cell can correlate to the lower right cell Even worse, it can correlate to an inverse of the lower right cell such that "Christianity is wrong so therefore Adventism is" (arguing that the Bible is untrustworthy after reading something in it).
Speaking of which, the lower right cell could have its content flipped and express the same with its given correlation as well (Unconverted/Processed: Left Adventism because of leaving Christianity). Or, is that considered Unconverted/Unprocessed because they never acknowledged Adventism deviates from Christianity?
Another problem: The upper left (and right) cell doesn't necessarily have to include the Bible... someone could be Spirit led instead of Bible led.
In general, all of the detectable problems seem to come from the introduction of thought and a specific narrowing to the Bible, when in reality a spiritual component is at work (e.g. 2 Cor 3:14-15).
(Message edited by Michaelmiller on September 04, 2011)
Post Number: 7490
|Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2011 - 9:35 am: || |
I think your analysis is VERY good. By typing it into these groups it helps anyone who is called upon to minister to the needs of a particular person.
What it doesn't mean is that it is called upon to cover every detail of the perspective former Adventist.
What it does mean (I think) is that we are very human and must have a means of processing information.
As I have interacted with different former Adventist, this is exactly what I see.
Post Number: 1287
|Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2011 - 10:14 am: || |
So what is being said here is:
A)Christian (Faith in the Gospel alone.)
B)Cult (faith plus works SDA)
C)Agnostic (confused, and gave up)
Post Number: 7492
|Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2011 - 10:54 pm: || |
(A) Clinging to Jesus as your savior.
(B) Clinging to the Adventist church in hope against hope you will be saved.
(C) Clinging to your own stubborn pride of self knowledge to the point you refuse to believe in anything.
Post Number: 12922
|Posted on Monday, September 05, 2011 - 12:13 am: || |
Michael, I understand what you're saying...but in general I believe that if a person is Spirit led, he is (or will be) Bible led. While I do believe that the Spirit leads people who have not found the Bible yet, as in countries where the official religion would not allow Bibles, nevertheless I believe the Spirit leads those who want truth to the place of finding the Bible.
The Bible is the objective revelation of God's will, and the Spirit brings people to Scripture to learn what God has specially revealed.
All that to say, I don't believe that the Spirit leads people in ways that contradict the Bible. His ways may not always make sense to someone looking on from the outside, but God doesn't lead people differently from His revealed will.
Post Number: 570
|Posted on Monday, September 05, 2011 - 6:10 am: || |
I completely acknowledge that my categories are absolutely oversimplified. No doubt. But can you describe a case that doesn't fit in to the categories?
I want to respond to the rest of your post, but you lost me.
Post Number: 571
|Posted on Monday, September 05, 2011 - 6:12 am: || |
Michael, the above post was for you.
Can you *draw out* the chart you're describing for me? I don't *see* it.
Post Number: 382
|Posted on Monday, September 05, 2011 - 8:40 am: || |
It is your original post with lines around it:
|Converted/Processed through Bible||Processed or processing out to Christianity (through the Word) |
|Unconverted/Unprocessed||Still Adventist-thinking- not Adventist practicing. Doing their own thing |
|Uncoverted/Processed without Bible||Convinced that Adventism is wrong and so is Christianity in general|
I've spotted some errors in my analysis, so I need to reevaluate it. Discard what I originally wrote in paragraph 2 entirely.
At the moment, I'm inclined to say your left side is accurate for describing formers. I might add that, technically speaking, a fourth Converted/Unprocessed (filling out the binary options) exists and is a gray area. These are people who are saved in spite of Adventism but have not been pushed to process their Adventism yet. Spiritually speaking, they are already "former" in that they 2 Cor 3:14-15 applies, but logistically speaking they are still Adventist. When I look more carefully, I see you tried to capture this on the table by including "processing" on the right while the left is defined as "processed" (this is a conflict).
The right side descriptions need work IMO. The one example I already cited is where do you put those who "leave Christianity and therefore leave Adventism?" At first glance your table suggests they belong along with the Unconverted/Processed (since the words match but in a different order). In a way this is true because they are through with Adventism (they have "processed" it in that sense), but technically speaking these people are unprocessed (in a different sense of the word) because they have not actually rejected their Adventism (it was unnecessary due to rejecting Christianity as a whole). However, grouping them with those "still Adventist thinking" shows where the table starts to break down. BTW - yes, I suspect this group does exist; it will never choose to be forum represented due to its nature.
So, the word "processed" contains ambiguity. This is partly because Adventism claims to be Christianity, so from our point of view we see something different than from the point of view of the person we are describing (who thinks of them as one in the same). By saying "processed", do you mean "done with, out of mind, put away, etc.", or do you mean "studied, refuted, etc."?
I propose another table that would clear up the ambiguity by pointing to whether the study/processing was Spirit led or not. This acknowledges the Spiritual component instead of human thought in the processing stage:
|Unstudied||Spiritually "former"; may soon be theologically "former" |
|Studied (Spirit led)||Christian |
|Unstudied||Non-practicing Adventist |
|Studied (not Spirit led)||Convinced Adventism and/or Christianity are wrong -- Atheist or Agnostic |
|Studied (Spirit led)|| One possible pre-conversion path|
(Message edited by Michaelmiller on September 05, 2011)
(Message edited by Michaelmiller on September 05, 2011)
Post Number: 383
|Posted on Monday, September 05, 2011 - 8:53 am: || |
I ran out of editing time for my message... I'm not certain on the inclusion of the necessity of the Unconverted/Studied (Spirit led) row. It is really outside the scope of "former SDAs) for this chart. Likewise a Converted/Studied (not Spirit led) category row could exist that describes abother situation that is not within the scope.
Post Number: 66
|Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - 3:43 am: || |
It seems like most people who leave Adventism don't have anything to do with religion, or they end up New Age or something similar.