Post Number: 42
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 6:57 am: || |
One of the new churches I attended was having a series on marriage when I first attended it. I found their idea of marriage, which they developed by using Scripture, to be pretty harsh.
What would you guys say is the biblical idea of marriage? Am I a bra-burning feminist because I find the idea of submission of the woman to be completely archaic, not to mention it turns my stomach just a little?
I just wanted your opinions because I trust you. Going to a church and seeing them use Scripture to support an idea, such as "husband, be like Jesus, and wife, submit to the husband like you would Jesus" doesn't impress me if since I once used the Bible to convince people of some pretty terrible and wrong things. Now, if they're actually teaching the right thing and I'm being way too skeptical, maybe I need to chill out. Thoughts?
Post Number: 2679
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 7:24 am: || |
Well, my quick response is that, as a husband, I find there is far more scripture detailing what my role is. And, it is far more scriptural to apply what pertains to me than to be hitting people over the head on what they should be doing. When I get to be a 'perfect person' I might then change my focus.
Sounds like that church is teaching something out of Basic Youth Conflicts which my dear wife and I attended and just could not apply to our own lives.
Post Number: 2045
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 10:51 am: || |
I'm a never-been, so this is a completely different perspective. I have no problem admitting that I've submitted my heart to my husband and he has submitted his heart to me. I trust him to be the head of our household although I am probably the spiritual head of our household. (Believe me, I'd love it if he initiated prayer in our relationship, but he doesn't). At any rate, you work with what you have. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have a mind of my own. That being said, the Biblical view of marriage works for my husband and me. We've been through a lot together and feel that looking to scripture has helped us build a stronger marriage.
If I were you I'd research more into what this church teaches on a whole. Perhaps they are too overbearing/intense which exagerrates the scriptural view and makes it more of a hinderence than a help...
Post Number: 991
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 4:05 pm: || |
they say that the #1 cause for divorce is marriage....hmmmm.
Post Number: 2443
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 5:58 pm: || |
One thing for sure is that the Bible says to obey God rather than man, so if a husband commands his wife to do something that God wouldn't approve of, the wife is duty bound to obey God instead.
The duties of a man seem awfully harsh too though, because the Bible commands him to love his wife as Jesus loves the church and gave Himself for her. I wonder how many men would be willing to actually give up their lives for their wives?!
Or live for their wives like the example of Hosea in the Old Testament who was commanded by God to marry a prostitute? She would run away and he would have to buy her back from the auction. Israel was continually running away from God and Hosea and his wife were an example. Israel kept turning away, then repenting, then turning away and God took them back again and again!
How many men would take their wives back if their wives were unfaithful? And over and over again? Yet, Jesus commanded men to love their wives like that! It seems being the husband is the harder assignment! Actually though, in this life, both assignments are hard!
Post Number: 13456
|Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 9:49 pm: || |
Rain, we were raised feminist as Adventist women. Oh, it wasn't overtly stated, but it was powerfully taught and modeled. I knew I had to prove myself to be as good as a man in a man's world. Moreover, Adventist men tend to have a sort-of condescending yet flirtatious attitude toward women, while simultaneously being a bit "weak". The professional men I rubbed shoulders with championed things like women's ordination and women in leadership, yet they didn't truly respect women.
It has been a HUGE shift for me to begin to try to be a biblical wife. Ephesians 5 is really clear that we have to submit to our husbands as to the Lord...yet this doesn't mean being voiceless.
I have found that submitting means that I must stay "engaged"; I can't just glaze over and be passive, but I also have to respect what Richard says without automatically challenging him or arguing. I have to tell him what I think, but I have to be respectful. That's been the BIG word for me. Respectful.
I've also learned that submitting to him as to the Lord doesn't mean he is the Lord—it means that I sorta "look over Richard's shoulder" and look at Jesus. I have to submit to Jesus when I relate to Richard, and that is how I understand that "to the Lord" part of it.
Submitting as to the Lord sometimes means that I trust Jesus when I want to justify myself. I can keep quiet without arguing sometimes when I feel like defending myself. I'm learning that I have a really fast "defensive button" from early conditioning. I'm learning to ask God to show me what is real and true and to help me trust Him when I don't understand Richard.
So the big idea for me is to submit to Jesus and to ask Him to show me how to love Richard for Him. I so trip over myself all the time, but God is faithful; He's teaching me to trust Him instead of trying to make Richard understand me. Oh, sometimes I definitely do talk to Richard about what I really mean, but I'm learning that God wants me to know that He is caring for me and for us both.
Gary Thomas, author of "Sacred Marriage", says God's purpose for us is to be holy, not necessarily happy. Marriage is the venue in which He works out holiness in us. Happiness tends to result from our trust in God and our allowing Him to make us holy. And I find that my respect for Richard grows in a deep way as I trust God with my own feelings. It's counter-intuitive, but it's real.
Post Number: 7764
|Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 6:51 am: || |
My wife have been married 50 years in April and we neither one of us have ever had a problem with understanding what the word commitment means.
I mean, is it all that complicated?
Post Number: 1841
|Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 7:11 pm: || |
Post Number: 408
|Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 5:18 pm: || |
Conservative/Historic SDA wives are taught to be submissive and obedient. The husband is taught to be the priest and leader of the home. The idea of the husband modelling Christ and the wife modelling the Church is popular because it supports conservative SDA theology by highlighting the intimate relationship between ‘love’ and ‘obedience’.
Independent SDA Ministries like “Restoration International” (Tom and Elaine Waters) and “Empowered Living Ministries” (Jim and Sally Hohnberger) are/were thought leaders in this area. My husband and I followed this lifestyle for a decade and associated with likeminded people. For ten years I tried to be something that I was not - a hybrid of a middle eastern woman living in a bygone era (based on biblical teaching) and the Victorian era ideal of womanhood (based on the writings of Ellen White). Probably a bit extreme. Not saying this is what the majority of Christians believe about marriage
I also naively thought that only sda’s understood ‘biblical submission’. I’ve since learned that women’s submission is a movement in evangelical Christianity too. It’s not a new teaching. Calvin, echoing Paul, articulates the principle behind the teaching: "Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame."
Paul - “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing”.
The idea of women being inferior to men runs throughout Scripture. It begins in Genesis, follows through the books of the law and prophets and into the NT. I found this unsettling during a recent Bible survey, especially the volume of Scripture that is degrading women. It’s certainly not the stuff of Sabbath School memory verses!
So what does the Bible teach about marriage? Quite a bit. From lawful polygamy, to divorce when a woman is not pleasing to hubby, to silence and submission, to no marriage or sex being the ideal. Jesus however seemed to have the most positive things to say in favour of women and marriage.
Choose whatever you think is uplifting and helpful. That’s my approach these days.
(Message edited by Kelleigh on March 01, 2012)
Post Number: 7769
|Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 8:15 pm: || |
Our church has taught marriage before, my wife and I just kind of raise our eyebrows and go on.
The truth is that if there is not a deep bedrock solid commitment on both parts, then in all likelihood the classes won't help much.
For instance, lets say you are married at 21, your wife is 18 and you both live to be 70.
There can be many troubles come at you in that amount of time. If there is not a deep commitment, you just can't stand against the test of time, times when your back will be against the wall. In those times you either learn or don't learn to depend and to take advantage of each others strong points and when the other is at their weakest you do not place blame, because if you go to blame placing, game over. If you recount each others faults, game over.
Thank God my outlook on what the Bible teaches is not like Kelleigh's because if it had been there is no way my marriage could have lasted through the storms it has been through.
Gods love to me has taught me to hold my wife in the highest esteem and also women of God who are called to minister.
I cannot do the things my wife does for me, nor can she do the things I do for her and that makes us both equally valuable to one another.
In the past people have made the very wrong assumption that there was no closeness or commitment between my wife and I, because it is not a showy kind of closeness, but when the lights are turned out and people don't see, our hands still reaches for the other in the still of the night, the closeness and the commitment to each other is there and goes down and is planted on the bedrock of our love, commitment, and trust in God.
If a marriage is not based on a commitment to each other and to God that goes down to bedrock, then I just don't see how it can last down through the years of hardship, disappointment and trials of this life.
A couple days ago my wife related to me a dream she had that night, she dreamed my Mom held both her cheeks in her hands and said this, "You kids made it."
I believe it was Gods way of acknowledging that the commitment that was started so many years ago was still intact.
We did not excel in it, we just made it. It takes a lot of commitment to stand the test of 50 years.
Post Number: 85
|Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 9:23 pm: || |
Well Kelleigh... I can tell you are frustrated, and I can understand some of it.
Here is where my view differs from many on this site: I believe we have to allow for the fact that bible writers were heavily influenced by their cultures. Not everything they wrote is applicable to us, 2,000 years later. Also, we have to consider the context. Did Paul really want women to be silent? Obviously not, if you read all of his writings. He apparently wanted men to be the spiritual leaders. And he also wanted men to treat women with respect and love. He believed that the return of Jesus was imminent, so thought that evangelists should, if possible, focus on getting the gospel to the world rather than focus on getting married and having families. If taken as a command, it sounds goofy; but I believe he intended it as advice - and if you consider what was being done to early Christians (prison, torture, beheading, stoning, crucifixion), the advice made a lot of sense.
Anyway, glad to see you are still posting. Don't get too discouraged by any dismissive comments you may sometimes encounter here. I'm pretty sure everyone is well intentioned, despite the periodic "beatdowns."
Post Number: 13460
|Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 11:09 pm: || |
River, I agree. I get what you are saying. And only God can cement a commitment between two human beings for decades. Only He can keep love deepening and hanging in.
The NT presents a completely different picture of marriage than the OT because in Christ, the curse of Genesis 3 is undone. The curse of sin permanently changed the natural relationship between men and women. Jesus redeemed both, and in Him, the care and respect and commitment described in Ephesians 5 is possible. It is NOT possible for people who are not born again. That's why the whole idea of submission doesn't even work if people are not born again. It can't work because the curse of sin means women will desire their husbands but men will rule over them.
In Christ, respect and and love are possible. In fact, it's interesting that in Ephesians 5 the command to wives is to respect their husbands, and the command to husbands is to love their wives. Think about it: that's the opposite of what we by nature tend to do. Men function and react with respect if they admire someone, and women automatically "love" and nurture.
Yet in Christ, it becomes possible for women to RESPECT their husbands and for men to LOVE their wives. Naturally, we tend to offer the other what we most need...but in Christ it becomes possible to give the other what the OTHER most needs.
In spite of the fact that Eve committed the first sin and was deceived, from Genesis Eve was promised that her seed (women don't have seed) would crush the serpent's head. And in Genesis 4, Adam named his wife Eve (after the fall, mind you) because she "was the mother of all the living."
The "living" are those who are truly alive: the spiritually alive.
Moreover, Romans and 1 Corinthians are very clear that all humanity died in Adam—not in Eve. Jesus was born of a woman—but not of a man. He was born of a woman and of God. His humanity came from a woman; his divinity came from His Father.
So from the first book of the Bible, although Eve sinned first, it is Eve through whom the Promised Seed would come. It was not Adam. The Promised Seed replaced Adam as the head of the human race.
Jesus redeemed women; He was born of a woman and restored her to dignity: the Messiah came into the world as the son of a woman.
The reports of how the ancient culture "worked" regarding polygamy and the role of women are not necessarily prescriptive but are descriptive. If you examine the Old Covenant rules in the Pentateuch, however, we begin to see that God provided certain safeguards for women that were not present in the pagan cultures. In fact, the story from Numbers 26:33 to 27:8 tells of the event that catalyzed the Israelite law that if a man had no sons, his daughters would be given an inheritance instead of its going to other family members. That was unheard-of in the ancient world.
God promised that He would be a father to the fatherless and a husband/protector to the widows (Ps. 68:5). God made women, and he has given them a unique role to play in the human race. Men cannot replace women, and women cannot be "as good as any man" because when they try, they lose the God-given authority unique to their femininity.
When we are born again, God gives us back our masculinity and femininity. I believe these deep identities are perverted beyond our ability to correct them when we are in our natural state of spiritual death. In Christ we receive back the authority and unique power that God has given men and women.
The reason, I think, that we struggle with "submission" is that we retain the "natural man" definition of it: "woman is one-down". In Scripture, however, that is not the case. Women are loved and honored. In fact, in his farewells in Romans, Philippians, etc., Paul names women he wishes to greet and honor along with men.
God calls us to new life. He gives us His Spirit, brings our spirits to life, and asks us to trust Him and to submit to Him our knee-jerk reactions to be treated the way we think we deserve. He asks us to honor the other and trust Him to care for us and to teach our spouses to honor us in Him.
It's hard to learn, but when we are in Christ, God is both our Father and our Father-in-law. He's teaching both me and my husband how to trust Him and treat each other in a way only possible for the born-again.
Post Number: 409
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 5:03 am: || |
I sounded pretty negative above. Biblical submission isn’t all bad. As a young bride I was head strong and bossy, as young women can be sometimes. About 2 years into our marriage we learned about submission through the Hohnberger ministry. Through their teaching I saw my behaviour was disrespectful and I changed, which was a good thing.
It wasn’t all bad. Well… the out-of-date, ‘modest’ dresses from the welfare shop I’d rather forget. And NO WAY was I going to put slippers on my husbands feet and a crown on his head like Sally did for Jim Hohnberger.
Truman, I see the Bible as more of a spiritual guide now than a textbook about the will of God. I do not believe the Bible is anymore or any less inspired than most other religious writings. I’ve tried to make the Bible work since leaving the structured biblical worldview of Adventism. But I can’t. I could give my reasons but I don’t want to discourage anyone here. Having a system of belief is so important. Hang onto it.
Post Number: 410
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 5:47 am: || |
Truman, I liked what you said about Paul's no marriage stance considering the circumstances of the time. I didn't think about that. The thing that's remarkable is the way Christianity got off the ground amid so much persecution? Why would people subject themselves to prison and torture if they didn't believe Jesus was raised from the dead? That's the central message of the Gospel they died for. I'm going to leave my comment here on a positive note. goodnight everyone.
Post Number: 411
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 5:54 am: || |
oh my..it's after midnight here! I forgot to say thank you Colleen. I read your reply and I understand where you're coming from. You made a good argument for biblical submission. Okay, got to get some shut eye. The sun is rising up there..so I bid you a good day! For me it's good night!
Post Number: 93
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 9:32 am: || |
I use to think that Paul preaching about women being silent in church (eg. no women pastors) was a cultural thing, but now I've heard to the contrary.
Does anyone have any biblical knowledge with biblical texts to support whether it was a cultural thing or if it's applicable to today as well? I'm not talking about women not being able to teach, give a talk, or lead out in activities, but about women as being in the capacity of a pastor position.
Any help would be appreciated.
Post Number: 7770
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 12:00 pm: || |
Lets look at Corinthians I 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Corinthians I 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church
Then notice what Paul says in the very next verse.
Corinthians I 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
This changes the whole outlook on what Paul is saying doesn’t it?
You men… did the word of God come out from you? Or are you the only one the word of God came too?
If God calls a woman to pastor a church who is it that is doing the calling? You..Me? Not hardly.
Men who have gotten the squirrelly idea that women are one step lower than their hound dog would like to conveniently leave 14:36 out. I feel sorry for their wives.
Post Number: 2445
|Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 9:15 pm: || |
Kelleigh; you asked: "Why would people subject themselves to prison and torture if they didn't believe Jesus was raised from the dead?"
Exactly! That's one of the proofs that Jesus was raised from the dead! People will die for what they believe to be true. They won't die for something they know to be a lie. The disciples were alive when Jesus was on earth. So they were witnesses to His death and to His resurrection. They knew He is alive and they saw Him go to Heaven! And they were willing to die for Him.
Confucius, Mohamed and Buddha all claimed to be great religious leaders, but they are all still in their graves. Jesus has risen! That shows the difference between religious writings and Christianity. Another amazing thing is the huge number of prophecies concerning the Messiah that were exactly fulfilled by Jesus!
Another thing that SDAs don't seem to notice is the existence of Israel. I say don't seem to notice, because they think that God permanently rejected Israel and that SDAs are Israel now. Besides the fact that Romans 11 contradicts that idea, Ezekiel 36 & 37 says that God would bring Israel back into their land. Regarding the fact that all the Muslim nations want to "drive Israel into the sea," isn't it obvious that they are there by a supernatural power?
This life is just a tiny little lobby, like a sparsely furnished waiting room. On each side of the lobby is a door - two in all. All we need to do is make sure we go through the right door! Jesus is the right door!
Post Number: 7774
|Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 4:37 am: || |
Yeah Asurprise, there are a lot more than just Adventists that seem to disregard that fact of Israel being gathered back to their homeland.
I believe we are not only in the last days, but the last hours.
What you said Asurprise reminds me of this song.
Post Number: 7777
|Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 5:35 am: || |
I was reading through the headlines a few months ago and those headlines inspired me to write this futuristic story.