Post Number: 69
|Posted on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 3:28 am: || |
During some basic spiritual warfare research I stumbled upon a really old expose of an event called the Toronto Blessing, have any of you heard of this?
In this YouTube video a pastor uses some of the footage of the "Toronto Blessing" to expose a false gospel, and, as you can see from the footage, what apparently appears to be either overt demonic activity(which is what I believe is going on), or in the very least some shameless use of hypnotic suggestion.
Upon watching this expose, I came to realize as dated as this event is, it's more than an expose and turned out to be a fairly decent sermon, which I believe was delivered to area pastors as a warning about what was going on in the church. It's a whopping 2 hours 44 minutes long, but if you're in the mood for a sermon I would recommend it, or you could also just fast forward to the footage of the "Toronto Blessing"
Post Number: 24
|Posted on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 12:50 pm: || |
Yes. I have read about it and have seen the videos. It's loonyville mumbo-jumbo. I would encourage everyone to not give up their thought control.
Post Number: 13728
|Posted on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 5:11 pm: || |
Yes. I have read of the Toronto Blessing. Without going into it in detail, I will say this: the Toronto Blessing and the movements that have spawned from it do not generally follow a biblical model.
The Bible asks us to trust the Lord Jesus, and He reveals His will through His word. A Christ follower submits his desires and his heart to the Savior, and he submits his mind and spirit to the truth revealed in Scripture. As we learn to trust Him more and more by the power given to us through the indwelling Holy Spirit, we experience God's care and provision, empowering and enabling in increasingly deep ways.
The Toronto Blessing focusses more on experiencing the Spirit and seeking His miracles. The Scriptural model is to learn to take every thought captive to God's word and to trust Him with our outcomes. We experience the peace and joy of Jesus when we allow His own presence to be His provision for us rather than the specific healing or experience that we want.
If we deviate from the gospel, even slightly, we end up, in the long run, far from the core of power and peace and growth that Scripture describes as the life of a believer living by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Post Number: 217
|Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2012 - 9:21 am: || |
I have heard of Toronto Blessing. It is unbiblical because Jesus and His followers never did crazy things such as laugh uncontrollably or fall around on the ground. The disciples followed Jesus around for 3 years and they always acted normal. The crowds that came to see Jesus were normal too. No acting weird unless a demon was coming out of someone.
Post Number: 2630
|Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2012 - 11:07 am: || |
Yes, I believe a person needs to ask several things; whether the preaching really agrees with the Bible, what are the fruits of these people's lives and whether or not the actions here are glorifying to God.
I saw one little video where the people were supposedly filled with the Spirit and their heads were rapidly going back and forth as if they were trying to shake water out of their hair. One was speaking as she did this and her wild head shaking distracted from what she said. Besides, it was uncontrollable and God is a gentleman. He never forces Himself on anyone!
Post Number: 87
|Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2012 - 11:41 am: || |
Yes I have no doubt that all of us here know that the Toronto Blessing is a sham (those of us who've heard of it)
I was wondering who'd heard of this specifically, and also just wanted to share that sermon, it was a decent sermon from a concerned pastor.
The people are laughing manically in the toronto blessing, uncontrollably, one pastor is unable to speak clearly no matter how hard he tries.
If any of you like sermons from varied sources I think that pastor's name is Alan Morrison, and I don't know what denomination he's from, but his sermon is pretty much totally solid and I would recommend it, he'd done his homework, and many of the people he's preaching against are still in very powerful prominent places in televangelism, scratching millions and millions of itching ears.
Post Number: 220
|Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 7:35 pm: || |
I do wonder if when people have episodes of confusion, it could be demonic? sometimes people go through terrible seasons in their lives when their actions and thoughts are irrational. I do wonder how much demons are part of it.
Post Number: 117
|Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 6:36 am: || |
I do believe so Butterfly_poette, and I also believe a lot of illnesses are caused by demons/spirits of affliction or infirmity, and it's commanding those spirits out in the name of Christ Jesus of Nazareth that heals the victim, when the unclean thing leaves the symptoms leave with it. That's why I believe there are two different types of healing, some things we as disciples do not have the delegated power/authority to speak to and command it to go, so we have to pray for the person (of course this is also true for certain demons as Jesus said some can only go out by prayer and fasting) but we can command certain illnesses to leave (command is not a prayer, it is wielding power/authority in the name of Christ Jesus) and we can command those things for the very reason that they are sentient evil spirits that must obey us because they are subject to us in His name.
The born again believers 'intuition' is very important, if you know someone in your life that is being uncharacteristically irrational and you have a hunch that it is demonic in origin, that hunch could be the Holy Spirit quietly informing you, and if it were me I would definitely command it to go. If that didn't work, prayer and fasting would be the next step, scripturally.
Post Number: 13740
|Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 9:38 pm: || |
Many physical ailments are also the result of emotional and psychological wounds that are somatized because the person has not actually dealt with the wounds. It's not necessarily demonic, but it does have to do with a person's being willing or not to know and face the truth.
The Lord Jesus has to be all we need; and His word is our source of authority and knowledge of His will. My experience is that unless a person is willing to own his own responsibility and the reality of his life, other people's prayers often do not result in long-term healing. We have to be willing to own and surrender our pain and our coping skills that become obsolete when we internalize the reality that in Christ we have ALREADY been justified, made righteous, and adopted into God's family with an eternal identity and value that nothing can ever tarnish.
But we have to trust God and believe His promises or we fail to experience the freedom from the old bondages. Once we are saved, we've saved! But as far as living the Christian life goes, we are asked to trust Jesus and give up our self-protection to Him!
Post Number: 9769
|Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 9:54 pm: || |
Colleen, you are so right. I say that because as a teenager I got a dermatitis on my hands. It would start out as water blisters and itch like mad. when I scratched it it spread all over my hands. My Mother and older sisters had the same thing. My Mom blamed it on the laundry soap.
When I was married and attending the Costa Mesa sda church Glen Coon came and gave a series of meetings. It was there I learned that my hands broke out because of things I was suppressing. When I learned not to suppress things, my hands did not break out. They have not broken out in years.
When I told my Mom and sisters what I had learned, they thought it did not apply to them.
(Message edited by Flyinglady on May 31, 2012)
Post Number: 403
|Posted on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 7:48 am: || |
I also agree Colleen. I had headaches from my teen years that nothing helped. No medication, painkillers, nothing. Then in my 30s I had body pain in additon to that - so bad at times I could hardly walk. I thought I had MS, or lupus, or what?? I self-referred to a rheumatologist, orthopedist, gynecologist. No one could find a physical reason for my pains.
When I finally hit bottom in my 40s & learned via 12-step to admit, own, & give God my shattered serenity, all my physical ailments went away. I very rarely ever have a headache or body pain in the years since. When I have had, it has been at an emotionally stressing time such as my mother's death. I have learned when I have those physical symptoms to ask my self what is going on with me emotionally. Now I can be in stressful situations without having physical symptoms. It is a peace that passes understanding.
The shorthand steps: I can't; God can; I think I'll let Him; have been immensely helpful. Letting go & Letting God!
Dr John Sarno says similar things in his books, writing especially about back pain. He has found that simply even considering the possibility that emotions can play a part is helpful.
Post Number: 17
|Posted on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:50 am: || |
I agree with Colleen and J9 - and 12 step was where I learned the real healing of James 5:16- humility and brokenness prepare us for healing....
Post Number: 119
|Posted on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 4:11 pm: || |
Hey, I know it's unpopular, people don't want to be labeled, ohh, NUTS Demons are absolutely real, and absolutely subject to us in the name of Christ Jesus, and the result of their activities are much more common now than in ancient Israel where Jesus walked.
These things you guys speak of are strange and foreign to me, with the internalizing or the twelve stepping, I'm sure there's some truth to all of it. As for letting go, yes obviously we can do nothing apart from Him, we must surrender to Him if we hope to do anything through Him, by His Power, for His Glory.
Much like the former SDAs have been through the legalism school of hard knocks, I've been through the denial school of hard knocks, for years and years I knew Jesus, loved and accepted the Gospel, but my spiritual warfare understanding was completely summed up in "It is finished."
I believe we are trained to disbelieve that we are at war, and I am not claiming that you guys disbelieve that we are at war, just referring to my own testimony here. I was able to skip over all the parts of the bible where demons and evil spirits are being commanded out either by Jesus directly or in His name. I got to the point where I was completely eroded spiritually, had stopped studying the Word, only rarely prayed, and things in my life got really strange and I was very distraught. I started praying fervently again, and overt demonic activity started taking place, as though it was some sort of intimidation to try and get me to stop fighting. King Jesus used this evil for good by educating me on the reality and extent of this spiritual war, and I have since been used for His Glory and by His Power to help others in similar circumstances.
There is a common parallel here though, and that is true faith. The overt demonic activity at first would hurt my faith, why are my prayers not working?! It seemed to be, in retrospect, that the whole point of it was to keep my faith weak. I put my foot down, and I rebuked, and commanded and it worked. Also the stubborn stance that these forces could do nothing that my loving Creator did not allow them to do, was a great source of faith and power in that war.
I would not dare claim there is not some truth in the self-help circles, but please understand, demons are real, and we don't have to tolerate them neither in our own lives or in the lives of those around us. Curses and black magic are also real. None of these things are about Salvation(I believe a Christian can be saved and under oppression and ignorant of what is going on all at once), though I have wondered what happens if this sort of oppression manages to make someone who claims Christ Jesus commit suicide, but Judgment is God's.
Post Number: 19
|Posted on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 6:44 pm: || |
Cv28- 12 step is not "self help". No one goes until "self help" has utterly failed and there is no other option but to admit complete defeat. The person in utter defeat comes to God like the prodigal, knowing it's a miracle to be accepted ANYwhere and finding God waiting, Most churches are not prepared for this ministry and the groups provide a place for a broad spiritual recovery. Many of the principles can be found in the book of James.
I don't disagree at all that we must wage spiritual warfare- I just believe this is one of the tools. Ephesians 6:10-18
Post Number: 123
|Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 5:00 am: || |
So is 12 step like AA or something? acknowledging we can't do this alone, and God will help us?
I totally get the "utter defeat", God is close to those of a broken heart and contrite spirit, opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
(If 12 step is an SDA or former SDA thing, then I will have NO IDEA)
Post Number: 404
|Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 11:48 am: || |
My reference to 12-step is like AA & any other program based on their 12-step recovery.
For me, it was spiritual. And yes, admitting defeat, everything that I had done, to date, resulted in a life & relationships that were not working; in total inability to overcome anything, in hopelessness, helplessness & total depression.
I learned in practical ways how to 'DO' Matthew 11:28-30 which tells me to come to Jesus, give it to Him, let Him teach me (one version says 'learn of Me') & wait on Him for direction & action.
Step 1 Admit I am powerless over (fill in the blank with behavior or person) Shorthand: I CAN'T
Step 2 Came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Shorthand: God CAN
Step 3 Made a conscious decision to turn our life over to God as we understand God. Shorthand: I think I'll LET HIM
This is where I learned the How-To. Up til then religion was no help to me.
I absolutely believe that our struggles are in the realm of spirituality. Step 12 says 'Having had a spiritual awakening. . .'
I am sure there are demons & principalities & powers. We are told to test the spirits, whether they be of God.
I am just saying that this worked in my life. And it is a surrender to God. I now comprehend the word serenity. I now have peace & calm even in the storms of my life. I learned how to take everything to Him, then wait on Him, listen to Him. Mind my own business. Leave others to Him. Let Him work in my own life, to clean me up, heal me, heal my relationships in so far as my part & behaviors were concerned. It keeps my FOCUS on Him. Not on myself, not on my troubles. I learned to take every thought into captivity - at times literally moment by moment.
I know there were generational patterns of bondage here as well, both my mother & my father modeled behaviors. My mother in particular had body aches & pains that nothing helped as well as emotional issues. Physical therapy, massage, injectable B12, tranquilizers, sleeping pills, nothing helped her. She refused a referral to a Dr for a 2nd opinion when she found out it was to a psychiatrist. She was suicidal & I knew she had the stuff to do it with. I made a vow that if I ever needed that kind of help I would not refuse it like she did. I was in college at the time. My breakdown came 20 years later. It took alot for me to keep that vow, make the decision, & take the step to go for treatment. God helped me keep that vow. It has been SO WORTH IT.
My story is my story. It does not negate anyone else's story or pathway in which God has led them.
I am not at all saying there is any right or wrong here, or denying there are demonic manifestations in spiritual warfare.
I just know that in my experience, & in my family these physical & emotional expressions were stopped in me via my 12-step recovery treatment. It was very definitely rooted in a solid relationship with God. There are others who have prayed, & God just took away their addiction or problem instantly. I cannot deny that! Jesus worked miracles differently with different people. It still happens differently with us today perhaps.
As to spirits, I am considering the possibilities. Just a couple of days ago I had an experience where I prayed over some behavior that was occurring between me & another person. I prayed for it to stop. I commanded in Jesus name for it to stop. This was in an audible but whisper voice the other person could not hear or see happening. The behavior stopped. The other person was not aware of the behavior, my prayer, or that it stopped. I believe it was a spirit of criticism - not directed at me - but bothersome to me to be exposed to it repeatedly.
Twice when one of our children was preschool age there was behavior that nothing helped or stopped until prayer was quietly prayed that if it was demonic God would stop it. Once it was my DH who prayed silently; once when I was with the child.
I don't want to make too much of demonic activity. I don't want to deny it either. I am still considering it, carefully & prayerfully, & in the Word by the Holy Spirit.