Post Number: 2697
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 11:40 am: || |
I thought I'd copy and paste most of a post I wrote before, showing a lot of Bible verses that show the difference between the old and new covenants and the place that the Sabbath held, in case there are any "lurking" Adventists reading on here:
The Sabbath was a "sign" of the covenant that God gave to Israel at Sinai. Since SDAs mix up the two covenants and don't realize that the Sinai covenant was only given to Israel for a period of time, they think this sign is for us today. Now let me give you some verses to back up what I just wrote.
Here's a verse saying what the first covenant was:
"And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13
And here's a couple saying when this covenant began:
"The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today." Deuteronomy 5:2-3
And here's one that says when this covenant ended:
"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary." Galatians 3:19
Here's another that says the old covenant is obsolete:
"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13
Here's another saying who the Sabbath was given to [former slaves in Egypt] and why (you won't hear this verse in Sabbath School class!):
"You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day." Deuteronomy 5:15
Here's one saying that the Sabbath was a sign between Israel and God:
“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you." Exodus 31:13
Here's a couple that compare the two covenants:
"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?" 2 Corinthians 3:7-8
"Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." Galatians 4:24-26
Now if a person reads the new covenant which is the New Testament (which started when Jesus died - Hebrews 9:15-17); they'll see that the Sabbath command isn't re-commanded. Instead they'll see that there isn't one day more important than another (Romans 14:5) and that all the various Sabbaths; seasonal, monthly and weekly; were a shadow of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)
And don't let the SDA church throw you when they point out that the commandment says "Remember" in Exodus 20:8 because just a few weeks earlier, Israel had been given the Sabbath at the giving of the manna. (Exodus 16:23-29)
Post Number: 219
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 12:33 pm: || |
Asurprise, can I copy this, crediting it with something like "Quoted from a friend..."?
Post Number: 38
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 1:40 pm: || |
How do you argue against their statement that they are "spiritual Israel" and therfore the commands given to Israel apply to them? Thanks.
Post Number: 220
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 2:14 pm: || |
I'd ask what makes them think they're spiritual Israel? That's not what the NT says.
Post Number: 1011
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 5:59 pm: || |
For their argument to be a valid one...Then ALL the commands given to Israel apply to them...Cant have it both ways , can they?..Its that simple.
>>>Animal..keep it simple
Post Number: 10
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 7:34 pm: || |
Just from experience, to answer that, Animal, they will say there is a difference between the 10C and the other commands. They will insist that they are spiritual Israel, and that the types of the "ordinances and handwriting that was against us" were nailed to the cross, but the 10C, being written with God's own finger are the moral, eternal law which is "for us" not "against us."
As for what makes them think they are spritual Isreal, they will quote from Romans 9 about they are not all Israel who say they are Israel and verse 8: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
These are some of the very issues I am struggling with, so please help me. I'm getting there, but it is oh, so slow.
Post Number: 180
|Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2012 - 9:34 pm: || |
Wrenegade and Got2befree:
Can you see how arrogant that position is, to argue that only a "date setting" movement in the 1800's is the "new" Israel? The solution is to read the entire New Testament IN CONTEXT. Not shouting, just emphasizing...
Paul makes it very, very clear that ALL of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. There is no special provision for those who still want to emphasize the law. In fact, Paul repeatedly cautions against doing that very thing.
Read what Ellen White has to say about the law, and compare it to what Paul says. In context, it's quite clear the the two are completely contradictory. At that point, take your pick as to whom you believe was inspired by God.
Post Number: 13803
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 12:09 am: || |
Yes, Truman. And moreover, if the promises of the old covenant apply to a so-called "spiritual Israel", so do the curses. The law is a unit, and all the blessings and curses stand or fall together.
The argument that the 10 C's are separate is a man-made argument, and Scripture NEVER supports it.
Exodus 34:28 says this:
So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
The Ten Commandments are the very words of the Old Covenant. They are the "abstract" of the Law; all the other 603 laws explain how to do the "Big Ten". You cannot separate them. The Law is the entire law. Scripture does not allow us to separate the decalogue from the rest of the law.
Post Number: 221
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 1:21 am: || |
I read that comparison wrenegade mentioned just today--that handwriting can not refer to God's writing the 10 commandments because He wrote with His finger, as if the finger is not part of the hand!
Post Number: 12
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 10:28 am: || |
You guys have no idea how much you are helping me. I just want to say thank you.The verses that equate God's covenant with Israel with the 10C are very helpful. I'd never seen that before. But why *did* God write the 10 in stone? Katarain, your comment helped. At first, I wanted to say "but Moses wrote all the "handwritten" laws and ordinances and God wrote the 10 in stone. But then I said hey wait a minute, they all came from God, didn't they? None of them came from Moses. Okay, so that makes it a little clearer. But I still don't understand why God made the distinction. And why was the sabbath so important back then?
It's hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that there is no distinction between the cerimonial laws and the 10C.
Are you saying there is no moral law per se? But how can we say that not lying, murder, honoring parents, etc. are "done away?" What is written on our hearts? Nine out of ten? or does the sabbath being the rest we have in Jesus replace the 4th? Why does the 4th seem so different from the other 9 in terms of fulfillment?
I can't get into my KJV too much. Ha! and I used to think it was the only safe one, but the language (while beautiful in parts) is very difficult to understand. I've been reading the ESV online until I can get a hard copy of my own.
It's very hard for me to sit or stand at the computer for any length of time. I have back surgery coming up pretty soon, and I'm in a lot of pain.
I'm sorry I have so many questions. I've been struggling with these things for years.
Post Number: 13
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 11:22 am: || |
Yes, I'm being to see that it is arrogant and a deception. At the time I joined the church, I truly thought it was a group of "called out" people with a special (three angels) message to the world. I studied and believed these things deeply. So, even though I haven't read any EGW books for over three years,I was very dedicated and indoctrinated for at least 20 years. It's very hard to reprogram all of this. I can't imagine what it is like for those who were born and raised in the SDA church.
I agree with you that I need to read the NT and let the Holy Spirit guide my thinking.
Post Number: 2698
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 11:41 am: || |
Katarain; of course you (and anyone who wants to) can copy it! (And you don't need to give me credit.)
Got2bfree; Israel too, is in the New Covenant now!
Post Number: 2699
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 12:39 pm: || |
Nine of the ten are repeated in the New Testament [New Covenant]. They're not even the same as the ones written on stone because Jesus greatly expanded on them. I guess the hardest thing for us formers to "get" is that "Keeping" any of the commands doesn't save us, and that it's the Holy Spirit's job to put those laws within us - and THAT doesn't save us either, because we're saved the instant we accept Jesus! It's hard for us to understand that a person is saved and their sins; past, present and future are forgiven when they accept Jesus as their Savior! (Ephesians 1:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9; 2nd Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; 1st John 2:12 - the apostle couldn't have written to the people saying their sins are forgiven if all of them weren't!)
As for the fourth commandment, the New Testament points out in such verses as Colossians 2:16-17 that that one is a shadow of Jesus!
Post Number: 143
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 5:26 pm: || |
Right, they shouldn't be wearing clothes of mixed fibers, etc, if they are under that covenant. It's all or nothing, there were what, 613 Commandments?
Post Number: 68
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 6:20 pm: || |
As a decently fresh former (I may be almost a year out but it's taking a while to work through things), I'd take my word with a grain of salt and listen more closely to the more wise, but here's how I understand the "if there's no moral law then can't I murder my neighbor" situation:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Now, when I was SDA I was taught that under those two statements the Ten Commandments fell. Now, if we understand that the Ten Commandments were in fact a part of a covenant with Israel alone, where does that leave Jesus' statements in Mark?
I believe that it leaves us in the position where we should understand that when Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commands" that it is those commands listed above (love God, love your neighbor) and, also, those that he taught that are recorded, such as in the Sermon on the Mount.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, guys, but this is what I've gathered in my time here. I thought I'd take a stab at it and see how I'm doing.
I completely understand the new idea that the Ten Commandments and the "ceremonial laws" are in fact a package deal, part of a single covenant, can be a little mind-blowing. Another scripture that helped me, other than those listed by other people above, was this one:
Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the ten commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. Deuteronomy 4: 12,13.
When I read that, along with Exodus 34:28, there was this moment where I realized that everything I had believed was a lie. I mean, there were other things I had been studying up until that point that I'd deduced were false, but this was major.
Now for Sabbath emphasis in the OT: I wonder if the Sabbath emphasis is really huge in the OT or hyped up by SDAs. I'm reading through the OT right now and what I notice the most is God getting mad over idolatry more than anything. I mean, I'm sure it was important, but for an Old Covenant people for whom it was a shadow of Christ.
I'm praying for your back and surgery, Wrenegade.
(Message edited by rain on July 01, 2012)
Post Number: 223
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 6:37 pm: || |
I'll share a conversation (paraphrased!) I had with my mother. She asked me
"Is it okay to murder?"
"Is it okay to steal?"
"It is okay to lie?"
This went on for a while, then:
"So which commandment are we not under anymore?"
"All of them."
She told me I was talking in circles and not making any sense, but think about it. If you love your neighbor, how can you steal from him? If you love your enemies, how can you murder him? If you love God, how can you blaspheme His name? If you love God, how can you put anything before Him?
We are NOT under the first covenant and the laws of it. The Holy Spirit writes His law on our hearts, and while the 10 commandments all concerned outward observances, God's true law is all about the heart. If you hated your brother under the first covenant, you were definitely guilty of sin, but you weren't guilty of breaking the Do not Murder commandment. When Jesus came, He taught that it was not enough to just refrain from murder--we have to not even WANT to murder. At all. Have you ever been so angry at someone, you just want to hurt them? Have you ever been really tempted to steal something, where you want it in your heart? Those feelings are evidence of our sinful condition--even if we don't actually hurt someone or steal something, we're still guilty of sin and of breaking God's law. We are sinful and wretched to the core, and the outward observances of the 10 commandments help us to see that, but it doesn't do anything to save us. No matter how perfectly we keep the 10 commandments (as if we could even do that), we can't change our hearts--it takes Jesus to do that.
So, the New Covenant law is so much broader than the 10 commandments. It goes deeper than the 10 commandments, to the heart level. And keeping that law is not a requirement of salvation, it is a *result* of salvation. When we are saved now, we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, something that was not available to all people under the 1st covenant. I think the Holy Spirit was probably only available to certain people, like the Old Testament Prophets. But now that we have the Holy Spirit, He creates a change in our hearts where we don't WANT to sin. We don't do it because we don't want to lose our salvation, we do it because we are truly changed, ultimately because we LOVE God with all of our hearts, and we don't want to disappoint Him. And we still sin, because we are still flesh, but God is always working on our hearts.
So that's what being Free in Christ means to me.
As for the Sabbath, it was the sign of the 1st covenant, and it was also a shadow of the True Rest that we have in Jesus. The 7th day Sabbath is just as much of an outward observance as the rest of the 10 commandments. When you are saved by Jesus, you can truly rest in Him. He is with you always, every moment of every day, and it doesn't matter if you are working or playing or anything in between, you are resting in Jesus. Having the Holy Spirit is the sign of the new covenant.
A big difference I have found between being a saved Christian and an Adventist is that as an Adventist, we might have said that Jesus was at the center of everything, but what we meant was that Jesus is just the beginning. He saves us, but His sacrifice is the down payment on our salvation. He gets the ball rolling, but it is up to us to do the work to keep our salvation by eating right, purging sin, keeping the Sabbath, and perfecting our characters--with the Holy Spirit's help, of course. They can call that Salvation by Grace because it is by the Grace of God that He gives us the strength to keep our salvation and to perfect our characters by following Christ's example. True salvation by Grace says that Jesus truly paid it ALL. When you accept it, His Grace covers ALL of your sins, past and future, not just the ones you committed in the past, before you accepted Him. Adventists (and many other "works-based" churches) will say that well, what's to keep you from just going out and committing all sorts of sins, then? Why not go out and murder, cheat, lie, steal, and fornicate up a storm? But, as I said above, when you are saved, you don't WANT to do those things. It's a heart change.
Well, that's how I see it...
(as I was rereading this, it occurred to me that coveting something is not really about outward observances, that has to do with the heart, but I still think that the new covenant commandments are much broader than the 10 commandments. Even the Sabbath commandment is broader--we do not relegate worship to one day a week, now we worship God in Spirit and in Truth all of our waking moments, and even in our sleeping ones.)
Post Number: 1930
|Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 10:15 pm: || |
Post Number: 14
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 8:48 am: || |
Rain: Thank you for your prayers about my back and surgery. I really appreciate it. It's a very serious surgery, but I'm thankful to be finally getting it done. Also, the prospect of the surgery (among other things) has brought me closer to the Lord, so that is definitely a blessing!
The scriptures and thoughts that you and Katarain expressed have helped me. The scriptures about the covenant being written on tables of stones are particularly helpful.
Also, Katrain, your saying "The 7th day Sabbath is just as much of an outward observance as the rest of the 10 commandments" in conjunction with your examples of how the other nine can be seen as "outward" (not murdering, etc.) and "inward" (Sermon on the Mount)helps a lot. For some reason, the sabbath command just seems so different from the other nine. Maybe that is because of SDA programming, but I'm beginning to see it clearer. I'm also beginning to be able to see the old covenant as including the 10 commandments. I think one thing that makes accepting this difficult is that the other churches (such as Baptist, which I was raised in) seem to make a distinction as well. I often hear them preaching on the 10 commandments.
Rain, what version of the Bible did you quote from? I liked the way the verses read.
As an Adventist, I would have said that I was not trying to keep the commandments in order to be saved, but because I was saved. (Weird, I heard many SDAs say this, but I thought we weren't supposed to say we are saved... another glaring contradiction). I truly thought I was doing these things by the power of Jesus living within and because I loved Him, but as time went on, it became a burden. I guess that was His way of showing me how easily we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are doing things for the right reason when we really are not.
Here is one thing I used to say as an SDA that I'm struggling with. Maybe some of you have come across this and can help me out with it. It has to do with the verses that say "be ye perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect." and a couple of other ones that I can't remember right now. I would say if Jesus is living within and I can't stop sinning, that means that satan is stronger than Jesus. In other words, satan has power to make me sin that is stronger than Jesus power to keep me from sinning. From those who disagreed (my Baptist family) I would get the answer that we are so depraved, born in sinful nature, that we cannot stop sinning. But that answer never satisfied me because I came right back to the fact that Christ living within me should be strong enough to overcome satan's temptations. I know I can't be the only one who faced this struggle, so I am looking forward to hearing the conclusions that you all came to.
I'd better get off here now. The old back is starting to complain.
Bye for now,
Post Number: 225
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 9:27 am: || |
I think we DO do what is right because Jesus lives within us and because we love Him. I think that phrasing is exactly right. Since people who believe in works-based salvation and people who believe in grace-based salvation will both claim that we do what is right because we love God and through the Holy Spirit's help, how can you tell the difference between Works and Grace-based theology?
I think the difference is in this question, which I've read on this forum before--Do you lose your salvation if you don't do these things, or if you sin?
If the answer is yes, then that person believes in works-based salvation, even if they don't admit it.
If the answer is no, then that person believes in grace-based salvation (and by that I mean Salvation by Grace Alone).
Ask an Adventist what saves them, and they'll say they're saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. Ask them how the Sabbath fits into that, and they'll say that when we learn about the truth of the Sabbath, then we'll keep it because we love Jesus. This is faulty reasoning, because they don't understand the place of the Sabbath in the first covenant, but so far, this isn't a big deal. The desire to please God because we love Him is an admirable one. The problem comes in the answer to the next question, "Well, if you don't keep the Sabbath after you know about it, do you remain saved?" And the answer to that question, according to Adventist belief, is No.
Some Adventists might say, well, you must not have been saved in the first place, because if you were really saved, why would you reject the Sabbath, as they believe it is commanded by Jesus? And that is related to what you have said you're still struggling with. If we have the Holy Spirit within us, if Jesus is with us, then why are we continuing to sin? I think the answer lies in the fact that we still have our fleshy bodies. Our spirit is now alive in Christ, but we still live in our flesh. Look to the Bible for your answer, it seems that your Baptist family is not so far off the mark. Look at what Paul says in Romans 7:14-25
"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
I believe that the Holy Spirit does put us through a sanctification process after we are saved, where any remnants of sin are exposed and rooted out. I'm still learning about this part of the process, but I believe that good works and sanctification are a result of and evidence of being saved--not what we do to remain saved. It's just a natural part of now being part of God's family and loving God. When you love God and have the Holy Spirit, you don't want anything to do with sin.
As for Matthew 5:48 and being perfect, I have heard it suggested here that being perfect in that context is to be mature and complete.
Colossians2v8, another poster and my husband, has some interesting things to say regarding what the meat of the message really is and how it relates to sanctification, and how we are called to be perfect. I had always seen the meat (vs. milk) as being doctrinal knowledge, so what c2v8 pointed out to me was new. I'll ask him to come to this thread to share.
I believe becoming perfect is a process, that may not be completed until we receive our heavenly bodies and finally shed our sinful flesh once and for all.
Post Number: 82
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 12:53 pm: || |
Dear Col. 2:8, It's interesting you mention mixed cloth. You can go to the Bible Sabbath Assoc. website and get a list of all the Saturday observing churches in the US and Canada, read their doctrines, location, time of meeting, etc. There is one on there that the members have to wear robes with blue trim.
Post Number: 145
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 1:02 pm: || |
Sure Katarain, I have often been subjected to this definition of milk/meat as well, especially when I was completely new in Christ Jesus and everything from my lips was about His Love and what He has done for me and how He is my everything.
I've had even pastors use milk/meat in a doctrinal context, that I did not accept their doctrine because I was still on the milk and not ready for meat, when the doctrine they peddled had nothing to do with righteousness, but rather some exclusionary teaching propping that particular church up higher than the rest. I have seen milk/meat used by adventists in the same way, when in Hebrews it is clear what meat is:
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. Hebrews 5:12-13
So it is clear that the milk is grace and what He has done for us and His love for us, and meat is the understanding that we are called to righteousness so that we do not turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, etc.
No amount of sectarian hee-hawing will ever sell me on the idea that although milk is the simple Gospel Truth, meat is our greater doctrinal and esoteric understanding of the Scripture and if you ever mature enough then you will come into our way of thinking. Meat via plain Scripture is the fact that we are called to righteousness., any eisegesis aside, everywhere the scripture talks about milk/meat it is supported by this point blank definition of meat in Hebrews via plain Scripture.
Post Number: 146
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 1:40 pm: || |
Punababe8008, Wow, just Wow
Post Number: 13807
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 4:00 pm: || |
Really great posts above!
One thing regarding that "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" text.
It is true that God requires absolute perfection...but this perfection is completely unrelated to the law. Romans 3:20-21:
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
The righteousness which God demands is "apart from the law". Moreover, no works of the law, however perfect, however deep and motivational they are, will ever justify human flesh.
And that "human flesh" includes the Lord Jesus as a man. His perfect law-keeping is not what justified Him nor qualified Him to be our Substitute. Rather, His law-keeping was the consequence of His having that righteousness apart from Law. He was spiritually alive, sinless!
God requires perfection, for sure...but that perfection is neither measured by nor accomplished by any work of law-keeping, not even not murdering nor committing adultery nor stealing.
We have to have the actual righteousness of God Himself, because He, the One who wrote out the law, IS RIGHTEOUS. In fact, the law (that's the entire Torah) and the prophets witnessed to the existence and the coming of this perfect righteousness that was completely disconnected from "law".
We have to receive Jesus' sacrifice for our sin, and when we do, when we submit to Him in repentance, He brings us to spiritual life. We receive Himself in the person of the Holy Spirit, and our lives are at that moment hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3). From that moment on, whenever the Father looks at us, He sees the Lord Jesus, because we are hidden in Him.
God credits JESUS to our account. The eternal, flawless, perfect righteousness of God Himself is credited to our account when we are in Christ. We receive the perfection of the Father Himself, because we are hidden in Christ, adopted into God's family, given His name and His inheritance. There is nothing of Christ's that is not credited to us. The law has absolutely nothing to do with our perfect righteousness; it doesn't even measure our righteousness.
We are justified by the Lord Jesus' propitiation for our sin, and God poured out ALL His wrath on Jesus. When we are in Jesus, there is no more wrath to be poured out on us. We are alive with His Spirit eternally!
The Sabbath in the Old Covenant was the sign of Israel's agreement to keep the covenant with God. But now, the new covenant is not "bilateral"; it is between the Father and the Son. The Son is our representative; He is the Perfect Israel and the Substitute for all who believe. When we are in Him, we are in the New Covenant by virtue of the Lord Jesus Himself fulfilling all the righteous requirements of the law...which, by the way, were not the perfect behavior we were taught to think they were.
The righteous requirements of the law were the blessings and cursings it promised: blessings for obedience, death for disobedience. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of death for human disobedience. Because of THAT obedience, He has reconciled us to God. His blood has satisfied the wrath of God and paid for our redemption.
Now we have a new "remember": the Lord's Supper. Now, instead of remembering the Sabbath which was a shadow of rest in Christ (see Col 2:16-17), we have "Do this in remembrance of Me." We remember Jesus' body and blood. It is Jesus Himself that we remember in the new covenant.
We are made perfect by a perfect righteousness that has absolutely no connection to Law. We are declared righteous because of Jesus' perfect righteousness credited to our account when we receive His sacrifice for our intrinsic sin. We are hidden in and covered by Him.
Post Number: 70
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 5:11 pm: || |
Wrenegade: I was quoting from the NIV. It's the translation I use for reading most of the time, though lately I've been using other translations and even some paraphrases to change things up.
The rest of you: you people never cease to amaze me with the insights you give me. Wow.
Post Number: 83
|Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 11:22 pm: || |
Yeah, the BSA publishes a book of these churches. Actually the Seventh Day Baptist is a great group, not weird at all. However, there seems to be alot of Penticostal type of Saturday churches, alot of Branch Davidian types. Having my wordly denominational membership in a Lutheran church I found the Sabbath Lutheran church quité pecular. Seems to really go contrary to the teachings of Martín Luther. Last time I checked there was only one congestión. Up in Northeran Minnesota. I guess it just proves there is a group of like minds out there for everyone.
Post Number: 2700
|Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 9:50 am: || |
There's another example that Jesus gives of the "be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" verse. It's the parable where everyone was invited to a wedding feast and were given a wedding garment. Everyone who had on the garment were a-okay! That garment is Jesus' righteousness! That's why a person is SAVED when they accept Jesus and why in Ephesians 2:8-9, 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5, it says that the believer HAS BEEN saved!
Yes, it's true that the Holy Spirit works in us once we get saved, but our salvation isn't based on His work. A believer HAS BEEN saved (the moment they accepted Jesus)!
The SDA church though, does a couple HUGE fatal mistakes. First it takes part of the work of the Holy Spirit and puts in on the church member and second, it tells the member that unless he is "making progress" he won't be saved. That fills the member with fear and sets him up to believe the lie Ellen White told that "no one can say or feel that they're saved." Of course that is a complete contradiction of the Bible, but by then the member has been conditioned to let Ellen White explain it for them, so they take the Bible metaphorically in places. Unless a person had gotten saved BEFORE they joined the SDA church, they never get saved because of those beliefs.
Post Number: 2701
|Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 10:28 am: || |
Oops! I forgot to mention why they wouldn't get saved. It's because they wouldn't be able to accept Jesus as their Savior because they believe part of getting saved/staying saved is up to their performance...
(Message edited by Asurprise on July 03, 2012)
Post Number: 4
|Posted on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 8:16 pm: || |
The Ten Commandments do not contain the entire moral law, if there is such a distinction (there's no prohibition against homosexuality, for example) and there is a ceremonial law within the Ten Commandments (the Sabbath).