1 John 1:5 - 2:2 (Part 3) Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » DISCUSSION » 1 John 1:5 - 2:2 (Part 3) « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Questions to answer over the coming week. We will be moving on to the next few verses in 1 John next week.


1 John 1:5 - 2:2 (Part 3)


1.) What are the three "wrong" claims someone can make about having fellowship with God? [ two "wrong" claims are similar] (These "wrong" claims are important to identify to fully understand these verses) 1 John 1:6,8,10.

2.) What two indicators give evidence that someone has fellowship with God? 1 John 1:7,9

3.) What creates fellowship? What hinders or breaks fellowship? How is fellowship restored? (Take some time to think about this.)

4.) What did you understand these verses (1 John 1:6-10) to mean as a Seventh-day Adventist? What do you understand them to mean now?

(Message edited by jrt on August 26, 2012)
Rider
Registered user
Username: Rider

Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My understanding of these verses is still a little vague, but here goes.

The three "wrong" claims: 1. I can have fellowship with God and still walk in darkness. 2. If I say I have no sin. 3. If I say I have not sinned

The two indicators of fellowship: 1. If they walk in the light & practice truth. 2. If they confess sin & have His word in them.

What creates fellowship? Confessing Jesus as my savior.
What hinders fellowship? Trying to save myself through works of the law.
How to restore Fellowship? Accepting our sinfulness and Jesus´┐Ż righteousness.

What I understand 1 John 1:6-10 to mean:
I am a sinful person and I have to accept Jesus sacrifice and life to have fellowship with God. As I accept Jesus, His spirit dwells in me and He changes my behavior.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13939
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. a.) If we say we have fellowship but walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice truth. b.) If we say we have no sin, we have no truth in us. c.) If we say we have not sinned, His word is not in us.

2. a.) If we walk in the Light, we have fellowship with one another; b.) If we confess our sins, He forgives and cleanses us.

3. a.) Fellowship is created by walking in the Light as He is Light and being cleansed by His blood. In other words, when we are born again and given Jesus' life, we walk in the Light because "in Him was life, and the life was the Light of men" (Jn. 1:4).

b.) Fellowship is broken or hindered when we hide from the Light and refuse to see the truth which the Light reveals. It is also hindered when we refuse to admit our sins which we continue to commit even after being born again, or when we refuse to "see" what the Light is trying to show us about ourselves or about reality. Fellowship cannot thrive when we won't "own" our sin which is in our members (Rom. 7:23).

c.) Fellowship is restored when we confess to our Father. This confession and hindered fellowship is not about our salvation. We are still born again children of God. But we have to recognize the sin in our flesh and confess it. This process is how we mature in Christ. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.

4. As an Adventist I understood this passage to say that if I was sinning, I wasn't saved. I could fall in and out of salvation dozens of times a day...and I'd BETTER remember to confess, or I wouldn't be restored to salvation. Sigh.

Colleen
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt

Post Number: 1265
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 6:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rider and Colleen,
Your answers echo what I would answer. I really appreciate your posting and participation ....

The reason I asked the question about the three "wrong" claims was to show how wrong we used to understand these verses in Adventism. Also, that EGW was completely unBiblical when she said that at the end of time God's people would live without a mediator/intercessor ... that they would reach a state of sinlessness. Scripture actually warns against such a statement and says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Also, "we make God out to be a liar", if we were to say we had reached a place where we no longer sin.

Here are the false claims, John says people can make: [Interesting that in our day we can make those same false claims - that John was bringing to light]

1.) What are the three "wrong" claims someone can make about having fellowship with God?

A. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness.

B. If we say we have no sin.

C. If we say we have not sinned.

With this in mind we CANNOT see these verses as a proof text of reaching a sinless state. Whew!!!!!

The next question does not imply salvation, but fellowship. John is talking about fellowship in these verses ... not the "how" of becoming saved. Notice the subtle difference ... He is saying, "If you are wondering about 'indicators' of whether you are saved - here are some 'indicators' that will help you identify a "saved" person. Therefore, it is not the "how", but the "what".

2.) What two indicators give evidence that someone has fellowship with God?

A. If we walk in the light.

B. If we confess our sins.

Why these two indicators? It just makes sense. Someone who is practicing a sin - without any regard for anyone else or God - indicates that they are probably living in the kingdom of darkness. When a person receives Jesus as their Savior - their internal compass changes ... Scripture says they are a new creature. They DON'T WANT to sin as they used to. Yet, they still do sin (Rom. 7). So someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus, but "practices" blatant identifiable sin indicates that maybe they really aren't saved - They might be lying. If they aren't seeking help or asking for accountability (ie. committing adultery, and justifying it by saying God just wants me to be happy) - you have to wonder where their internal compass is (self-centered or God-centered)? When someone falls like that - I would want to first approach them by taking them back to the great salvation that is theirs through Christ. And ask them, "Do you understand what Christ has done for you? Do you want to receive Him as Lord of your life? If you have not done that - would you like to? Then how can I help you be accountable to the Lord? Would you like that? Again, we have to realize John says clearly we WILL sin ... but we will not want to make a habit or practice of sinning. Now our desire will be for righteousness and holiness. Hope that makes since and clarifies the distinction.

Then why confession? I think that Colleen has described it well, "when we refuse to admit our sins which we continue to commit even after being born again, or when we refuse to "see" what the Light is trying to show us about ourselves or about reality. Fellowship cannot thrive when we won't "own" our sin which is in our members (Rom. 7:23)

I'm going to answer the last question and then deal with question #3 in a different post.

4.) What did you understand these verses (1 John 1:6-10) to mean as a Seventh-day Adventist? What do you understand them to mean now?

1 John is one of those books in the Bible that has been deeply twisted by false teaching. I would say that 1 John was just as twisted in Adventism as the books of Daniel and Revelation were. And for me - there was fear to study Daniel and Revelation outside of my Adventist understanding (I have since spent much time studying those two books). But 1 John caused my mind to go on auto-pilot. I couldn't make sense of the verses ... I have felt like my mind was in a deep, dark fog when reading 1 John. So I am thankful to do this study for MYSELF. And I am finding my previous understandings changing. Actually, I'm just beginning to look at 1 John with a sense of joy instead of apprehension. Every day since we started this study I have read 1 John 1 - 2:2 and in different versions of the Bible. Finally, I feel a grasp of what John is trying to convey - and it causes me joy and I realize how practical he is being.

So in the past I have seen these verses to mean that I need to be perfect and I could lose my salvation if I wasn't. Also, if I didn't confess my sins - or miss one sin (didn't confess 1 sin) I would go to hell. I was a basket case - trying to remember if I had confessed something or not. I would beg God on a regular basis to reveal my sin to me - so I would confess it - I was just scared of missing something. NOW, I go to God in prayer and just ask ... is there something I need to know and confess? And now it is not so much about the "act" of the sin - as the "heart" issue behind the sin. In other words I might confess pride - when I have made a jabbing comment to someone ... or I might confess not trusting God - when I haven't stepped out in faith with something. I don't wallow in confession - but actually feel refreshed by it. The Lord knows I want to be continually renewed and changed more into His likeness. I have His righteousness and am assured of salvation - now I want to walk in that righteousness on a daily basis.

Hope this makes sense.

Carolyn
Rider
Registered user
Username: Rider

Post Number: 25
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 7:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Carolyn for your comments. I grew up in a family that believed EGW was inspired but not without error in her writings. She was not read in the home except to prove a point of established belief. Living a sinless life was not something I have ever believed, but neither have I understood the verses we have been studying. This study has really help me understand what John was saying to all of us.

As a third generation Adventist I have always excepted what the church has taught with a grain of salt. Though I did think it was a better church than 'Sunday' churches. It has been a slow process coming to the point where I see the error that Adventist teach.

Thanks again.

Roger
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt

Post Number: 1266
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roger, I, too, believed for some time that the SDA church was a better church than any "Sunday" church and that the SDA church was the "closest" to truth of all the denominations. It is hard to see the error in Adventist teaching and doctrines when you are continually told from people in authority that "this is the truth - or at least the closest to truth you can get."

Thank you for your continued participation in this study ... I have appreciated your comments!

Carolyn
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt

Post Number: 1267
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 6:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Following the format of after studying a passage looking at commentaries I'd like to quote from a commentary by James Boice on the Epistles of John.


quote:

"The first false claim is a common one; namely, that a person can have fellowship with God at the same time that his life is characterized by unrighteousness. .... Here, to 'walk in the darkness' means to sin habitually, the contrast being, not a sinless life (for John teaches that everyone sins, v. 8), but a progressive growth in godliness. The present tense indicates a continual practice of that which is opposed to God.

.... The fact that John speaks of cleansing from sin, using the present tense of the verb, indicates that he does not understand 'walking in the light' to mean perfection. Rather, he means a genuine and continuous pursuit of holiness out of which increased fellowship with other Christians and confession of sin will come. It is this that must characterize all who know God."




Another interesting quote found on the next pg. 32 reads:

quote:

Second, John says that the one walking in the light will find the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ available to him for continued cleansing. At first glance this seems a contradiction. For why does the one who already walks in the light need cleansing? Is he not already cleansed? Or, on the other hand, if he is being cleansed from sin, does this not imply that he was walking in the darkness previously? The contradiction is only superficial, for John is merely saying that one who walks in fellowship with God will find forgiveness for any sin that might enter his life. In fact, such forgiveness is already provided for by the sacrifice of Christ. This is not said to encourage sin, as some might think ("let us do evil that good may result," Rom. 5:8), but to encourage holiness.




The cleansing and present tense of the Greek verb is understood in vs. 7 of 1 John 1. " but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."

To me this is such a beautiful show of the great salvation we have. We are continually cleansed of our sins (present tense of the verb), because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. I believe John is trying to convey to the gnostic challenge in his day ... we are cleansed continually, but that doesn't mean you should make a habit of sin.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13946
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carolyn, I am enjoying this study. I've been a bit scarce the past few days; I'm buried in Proclamation editing. But this study is helping me solidify what John was actually saying. As you and Rider both said, it's incredible how much baggage we had over this passage.

As time goes on, one of the things that really causes me anger is to realize how Adventism used the actual word of God to teach falsehood. They taught us inside-out definitions and got away with it because they had us believing we were physical beings with the power to sway God's decisions. We worshiped ourselves, ultimately.

Thanks for this study.

Colleen

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration