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Colossians2v8
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Username: Colossians2v8

Post Number: 160
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many former adventists here now eat pork chops or some other pork meats/products, and do you ever feel guilty about it?

I'm just curious how this goes, I know that from a health food standpoint many consider pork to be a nono even from a secular standpoint, I would love to know from several former adventists how they've dealt with this aspect of being a former.

For seven years I was the only person in my household that ate pork (though it's not my favorite meat, not by a longshot) and this caused no problems whatsoever - hey, more for me!

It's up to my former-SDA wife if she would like to add to that story. :-)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13935
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, yes...I like pork! I haven't had a pork chop yet, but I have had pulled pork several times, and that is absolutely awesome! I also like ham...and ham and cheese sandwiches are truly delicious!

Bacon? Ohhh, yes...that is truly amazing. Stripples don't even come close!

Colleen
Katarain
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Username: Katarain

Post Number: 242
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes! I admit it! I had a pork chop, and I feel guilty about it! It doesn't help that I didn't like it very much. It was just so boring. (I'll blame the cook (me) there.)

I feel a lot less guilty about the bacon I made a few weeks ago, but I think I could have cooked that better. The really cooked (perhaps overcooked) parts really did taste like crunchy stripples to me. I thought it was good, but I don't understand all of the hoopla over bacon either.

I see nothing wrong with eating pig products, but the guilt over it is pretty deeply ingrained. I could cheat and eat J-ello products all day long, but actually cooking and eating bacon and pork chops? That's major! C2v8 asked me if I had told my mom yet--uh NO! I think she'd probably react even worse than when I told her I was no longer an SDA. Because when you finally start eating "unclean" meats, well, then you're really out, aren't you?

And when I say I feel guilty, I don't mean that I'm all distraught or anything. It's just this nagging feeling of doubt.

I am SO glad that we are not raising our child with these hangups. She had never even had pork chops before, but when we said that's what we were having, she was all too happy to try them. She thought they were great! I make a point of not mentioning my misgivings to her. I'm very happy to not be passing along all of the Adventist baggage to the next generation!

(Message edited by katarain on August 28, 2012)
Bskillet
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Username: Bskillet

Post Number: 989
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 5:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So my cousin has tried to get me to return to SDAism. He told me that people who leave Adventism usually still never eat pork products. He asked me if I do. I said yes. There goes his theory. It's true that once you start eating pork, they see you as really out.

I love pepperoni pizza and bacon, too. The Bible says they're good for food (1 Tim 4:4). The Bible is right, as always.
Katarain
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Username: Katarain

Post Number: 244
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 5:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh! I had pepperoni pizza, too! I thought it was good, but again, pepperoni lovers really built it up and, while I thought it was good, it was nowhere near legend level like they make it sound.

Now seafood? Maybe I'll try some of the non-gross stuff at some point, but don't even TRY to suggest that I eat a shrimp. Shudder!
Rider
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Username: Rider

Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 6:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an SDA I would feel guilty if I ate anything "unclean". After discovering what the Bible really says about food there is no religious guilt. However, I feel a little guilt because my doctor says I should limit red meat because of my family history concerning heart disease. Some food I have a hard time getting my mind around, such as gooey duck. Has anyone here tried it? I have heard that it is really good.
Got2bfree
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Username: Got2bfree

Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2011
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, I can smell the delicious aroma of bacon frying right now! Nice crisp, crunchy bacon--yum!

Rider, I don't know gooey duck. I do, however, enjoy duck à l'orange.
Rider
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Username: Rider

Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is a delicacy of the Northwest from the clam family. I have not had the opportunity to try it and don't know if I could even if I were given the chance.
Lyrical
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Username: Lyrical

Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 7:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, here are my "two cents"...

I choose to be vegan, which is probably uncommon for a former. It is always assumed that it's my SDA heritage that informs this choice. But, for me, it's purely a health-related decision. I was raised a vegetarian (plus occasional fish), then ate chicken and turkey for approx. 12 years (as an SDA). My husband was given a copy of the book "The China Study" and I decided to read it. It was so compellling that I became vegan the day after I finished the book. Literally. Now, being raised vegetarian, this wasn't as huge a leap for me as it would be for someone raised on meat. The empirical evidence of the connection between major disease and animal protein is astounding. Check it out if you're interested, or you can watch a very abbreviated movie, "Forks Over Knives," that's based on the book.

I am reminded of 1 Cor. 10:23-26 that says, '"I have the right to do anything," you say - but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything" - but not everything is constructive. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

I realize this passage is referring to food sacrificed to idols as well as the issue of clean vs. unclean meats. But the point I take from this is eat what is put before you, or what you desire, with a clean conscience. There is no need for religious guilt anymore. But, it doesn't address the health benefits involved. It's only referring to conscience. Just because the Lord permits us to eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean it's beneficial to our health.

That being said, I choose to abstain from animal protein of all types because of the overwhelming evidence in research that links it to heart disease, cancer, etc., but not because of guilt. I take a B-12 supplement, eat a balanced diet, and I've never had more energy in my life as I do now.

Even though I choose to be vegan, I'm not militant about it and it's nice to have freedom in Christ regarding food. If I'm eating out and my salad is unexpectedly served with bacon bits, I don't need to send it back and ask for another one, as I would've done as an SDA. I'll just pick off what I can and enjoy the rest. No guilt. Or, if I discover the beans I ordered were cooked with ham... oh well. Great flavor. In the past, these events would have caused me to break into a cold hard sweat!

I will eat what is placed before me by guests and enjoy living in the freedom to choose out my own convictions what is best for me. It's wonderful to be free of that guilt!!

I know most formers start eating meat once they leave Adventism, but I just wanted to give a little voice to the few who choose not to and remind us all that it's a matter of personal choice, just as is the day we choose to worship. (I realized as I was driving along this week that if my church met for it's main service on a Thursday night, that would be ok with me. I can finally accept that it truly doesn't matter! As an SDA I have had some pretty serious hang ups about what "Sunday" represents.) I can see how a former might feel pressured to eat meat, just because it's now "ok," even if they don't like it or don't want to. As an SDA I learned to automatically judge others for EVERYTHING. If I'm with the remnant then I guess I've been given license to be harsh since I've got it all correct and "they" don't. That attitude is so ingrained that it's often just automatic. It has taken a lot of time and prayer to begin to notice it, adjust my thoughts, and repent... over and over and over. So, I won't judge those who choose to eat meat and I pray other formers won't judge me for choosing not to. :-)

Oh, and I totally resonate with you Katarain about shrimp! The thought horrifies me ;-)
Katarain
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Username: Katarain

Post Number: 246
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've started to really question the data that says that a vegan diet is the healthiest. There is some evidence that says otherwise that we were sort of shielded from as Adventists. It's not as cut and dried as we might think it is.

I still have a pack of pork chops to make. I'm going to make gravy this time, so maybe I'll like them better this time.
Punababe808
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Username: Punababe808

Post Number: 119
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am food neurotic. I read lables. Will avoid foods from GMO sources. Try avoiding artificiAL color, favoring and preservatives. Try using a lot of locally grown produce. Gotta think about the mercury in the fish and because of the earthquake in Japan now the radiation. Then i attend local luaus I eat the Kailua pork.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 1733
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colossians,

My SDA M-I-L likes to say, "There are just some foods you shouldn't eat. Everyone knows you shouldn't pork". I wondered if that was true or just a deeply ingrained belief. As a healthcare professional I have access to international databases for peer reviewed literature. So I searched for studies dealing with pork and I can't find any scientific evidence whatsoever that pork is any less healthy than any other comparable cut of red of meat.

There's plenty of evidence that we should limit red meats as a group. There's plenty of evidence that we should avoid or limit certain types of very fatty cuts. But there's no evidence that a particular cut of pork is less healthy than a similar cut of beef.

So yes, you can eat some pretty unhealthy pork products, like ribs for instance. However, they are unhealthy because they are 1) red meat and 2) an extremely fatty cut of meat. Nutritional value and risks for beef ribs are probably relatively similar. Likewise you can eat some reasonably healthy cuts of pork. You can get very lean pork fillets that nutritionally are probably better for you than an especially fatty cut of beef (cheaper hamburger cuts being a prime example).

So it's all relative. We can't say that beef is always more healthy than pork. There's just no evidence for that. So if Adventists would say, "Everyone knows we should eat less red meats in favor of fish and poultry" then they would have some evidence to back them up. But when they're perfectly fine with having a steak or hamburger but want to insist that pork should be singled out as unhealthy, then they're on shaking ground. Based on the absolute lack of evidence for this I suspect it's a SDA urban legend that's a direct result of misunderstanding the ceremonial meaning of the word "unclean". SDAs have generally thought this was somehow tied to health when the meaning is something quite different.

So not too long ago when my M-I-L started going off on this again I asked her if she could point me to a study showing that pork in particular should be avoided in our diet. Her answer was just to repeat once again, "Well, everyone just knows it. It's common sense." Okay.
Mjcmcook
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Username: Mjcmcook

Post Number: 600
Registered: 2-2011


Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO~ this reaction to "Pork" products, by adventists and some "Formers" is "Feelings" based, rather than "Facts" based~

If a person just does not like the "taste or consistency" of Pork products and also "Shellfish", this is a personal choice, to be respected~

I, for one, can enjoy all these aforementioned food "groups" with no pangs of conscience~ for a very short time, after I "came out" of adventism, I had a tiny bit of guilt, for maybe, "5" minutes! Then I enlarged my diet tremendously and "hit" the cookbooks to try new and exciting recipes!

Some of you might like to do the same! it is "FUN"!

~mj~
Katarain
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Username: Katarain

Post Number: 247
Registered: 1-2012
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mj, you might have a point. If I can make pork products palatable to me, I might not feel guilty about it. It might not even be guilt exactly--it's just the pork flavor seems off to me, like it's not chicken, it's not beef, what the heck is it?? The thing is, I didn't feel guilty about eating a piece of pepperoni pizza. It was just an interesting experience. There was a bit of strangeness about eating bacon, but it didn't bother me that much. Maybe I just don't like pork chops.

But it is definitely my Adventist background that causes this confusion. If it weren't for that, I could just eat this and say, hey I don't like it, or I do like it, or I might like it prepared this way or that way.
1john2v27nlt
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Username: 1john2v27nlt

Post Number: 431
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I am going to be Sola Scriptura, that includes letting the bible tell me about foods too. I cannot go with the injunctions today of being vegan, nor limiting red meat as unhealthful - by the scriptures. When I read my bible with the questions about what God says we can eat - my eyes were opened.

Lamb, beef, goat - are they not red meat? Organ meats too were considered 'most sacred' & eaten by the priests - yes they were. Then there are the numerous statements 'there will be pasture for your cattle & sheep.' I do espouse eating pasture raised & fed animals & chickens.

Vegetarian chickens?! No such thing as God created them. Their meat & eggs are the most nutritious when they eat what & as God created them to, free ranging eating bugs.

God says you will go to the land flowing with milk & honey. Cheese (curds), butter, all good foods & biblical.

Everyone gluten intolerant?? Yet God required offerings of the finest flours & grains. HMmnn. Maybe we as humans have corrupted God's good foods? Einkorn (heirloom) wheat seems to have fewer problems for people.

Gentiles (Noah's descendants) were given every living thing that moves (Gen 9:2-3) How can anyone say that we are to eat the Eden diet - it is God's ideal for humanity? Conflicts with God's word to Noah. As NC believers, Gentiles, we can eat anything except that which is strangled or has it's blood in it.

Lyrical, 2 people to read regarding vegan, PETA, lifestyles & The China Study:
~ Lierre Keith 'The Vegetarian Myth'. She was a PETA activist vegan for 20 years.
~ Denise Minger on The China Study. She was a vegan for 10 years. She is now a raw food promoter. But she has obtained the original 900 page monograph of the China Study & run statistical analysis on the raw data & thoroughly debunked the conclusions of the author. These 2 authors did not want to eat meat or give up activism or veganism. Yet they were compelled by what they faced & found out.

That is what is so tricky - whether it be religion or nutrition -- things can look & sound so true, so compelling, yet be twisted, deceptive, & false.

You may read these authors & not change your beliefs. That's ok. Being willing to look at something that challenges our beliefs is showing teachability, open-mindedness, willingness to follow truth wherever it leads us.

There's a saying: No matter how flat you make a pancake, it still always has 2 sides. So let's be willing to take a look. At least we can make an informed decision.

Truth can stand scrutiny.
J9 - who eats bacon, shrimp, & just recently had sea scallops for the 1st time - much better than LL or Worthington - & is not afraid of full fat dairy, & knows that butter makes everything taste better while providing perfect vitamin A & D so we can absorb the fat soluble vitamins in our veggies!
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13936
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lyrical, Adventist Today recently ran an article in the March-April, 2012 issue, examining the China Study by Roger N Trubey. It is a detailed look at the book, its conclusions, and also at the data of the study itself. The book, it turns out, was the subjective summary of the researcher, not the report gleaned from the data. In fact (and the article shows examples and has tables of data taken from the study), the data shows a different conclusion from Dr. Campbell's report in his book.

It turns out that The Chine Study was never peer-reviewed, and if it had been, it would never have gotten into print. Here's a quote from the article:


quote:

It is important to clearly state that no one, not even Dr. Campbell himself, found any direct association between animal protein and any of the diseases in the study data. Because Campbell could not find a direct association, he uses cholesterol as a go-between and made the following unsubstantiated but major assumption:

• Higher cholesterol is associated with Western-type diseases.
• Animal protein is associated with higher cholesterol.
• Therefore animal protein = Western diseases.

But Campbell's own data shows that there were multiple other variables clustered alongside Western-type diseases. They included higher blood sugar, excess consumption of refined carbohydrates, excess beer consumption, employment, and work hazards. Thus, relying on a single parameter such as cholesterol may suggest the author's desire to achieve a more biased outcome.…

There was no direct correlation between animal protein and specific cancers in the raw data, with the exception of a slightly positive—but not at all statistically significant trend—toward breast cancer…Without a direct relationship between animal protein and cancer, Dr. Campbell introduces the cholesterol variable into the mix. But if animal protein were indeed a primary cause, he should be able to find a direct correlation with much higher positive numbers. (A chart listing 12 different common cancers and their statistical correlation is included.)




One statistical correlation that Campbell completely failed to mention but which appeared in his data was the that "the primary predictor of heart disease rates in the China Project, if there is one, is the type of grain consumed, and wheat produced the highest disease correlations of any food.…To find that in the actual study, wheat has a stronger relative risk than any other food variable must come as a serious shock to those who read the book and cheered its conclusions."

The article ends with these words:

quote:

Despite the fact that nearly every reader of his book assumed that the data from the China Project proved, without question, the superiority of a vegetarian—if not vegan—diet, in the end the evidence is only a mirage. The vegetarian party, at least from the view of The China Study, is over. If a study is used to promote a vegetarian or vegan diet, it should not be from Campbell's book; the data will not support it.

Although the criticisms of his book are not an advocacy for the superiority of animal protein, they are a compelling case of Campbell's failure to substantiate his vegetarian bias, despite his attempt by literary slight of hand to do so. If his objective was to convert his uninformed reader to a vegan/vegetarian way of eating, he may well have accomplished his objective, albeit very deceptively. But in doing so, by his sins of commission and his many sins of omission, he has seriously compromised his conclusions and the reliability and credibility of The China Study.




The article is heavily cited as well. Very interesting.

Colleen
Martin
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Username: Martin

Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 - 4:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do eat pork or pork-derived products and truth is I don't feel guilty about it. I might have in the beginning, after I left the SDA church, but I think that I stopped feeling guilty about eating anything in particular a long time ago.

Different foods might be more or less healthy, or I might like them or not... But that's a whole different thing than feeling guilty about them. More than that, I feel thankful for what I'm going to eat, even if it is something I don't particularly like or enjoy.

Another thing is the way we've been used to eat or do things, which I guess is more a cultural issue. For example, as I said, I do eat pork but truth is that I don't do it very often... I don't tend to eat huge amounts of meat, but I usually get more chicken and beef. I may buy some salami, chorizo or ham, and I tend to eat more pork when I've been invited to other people's houses.

On other types of "unclean" foods, I don't like sea food too much, although I will eat it. I've had crab some time ago and that wasn't too bad... Prawns don't taste like much to me but they're fine. Mussels and thinks like that, ugh, not sure about them... Don't like their look! :-) Never had lobster or other large crustaceans. I do love fish, though.

The issue is that we've grown up with certain ideas about what you should eat or not. And, at times, it isn't easy to change the way you're used to do things... Which is just fine. You can change or you can keep the way you eat. We don't need to change anything in that sense because we know where, in Christ, our security rests.

Final thought. I realise that I live in a place of the world where there's a huge abundance in food and it's not hard to obtain more than what you really need to live. Lots of variety and choices. I wonder if these issues aren't, in a way, more of a "first world problem", in the sense that you can't afford to be too picky about what you eat when there isn't much to choose from.
Punababe808
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Username: Punababe808

Post Number: 122
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 - 6:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is very interesting to me about putting unclean animal products is the SDA medical centers use thread for sewing yincisions, shunts. etc. in their medical procedures. And years ago Dr Bailey transplanted a heart from a baby baboon into a baby human at Loma Linda Medical Center. Baboons, I guess are ok. The SDA's I have asked about this give me a lecture about digestion.
Colossians2v8
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Username: Colossians2v8

Post Number: 161
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks everyone, I have long held that butter for example is better than any form of margarine just because it's natural, you don't need chemical solvents etc to make it.

As for pork it isn't pleasant seeing a guilty look on my wife's face, I never tried to force her hand for 7-8 years, because God looks at the heart and we have to stay true to our own conscience.

There's good and bad in the "first world problem" you mentioned, Martin, it is good for many different reasons to have a variety of food, both to glean different nutrients from different foods, and also in the event a chemical or pesticide etc is in one type of food then having variety decreases exposure to any one man made chemical.

The only food law I feel convicted of is that I should fast more often, I need to get back to that so badly, I do believe we are still called to fast, if we feel far from Jesus Christ, or if we are grieved, or are engaged in spiritual warfare, I believe fasting is the most important and only really relevant food law for the Christian, as Paul said a few choice words like: Their god is their stomach, their mind is on earthly things, and the kingdom of god is not about food or drink, etc

But I also would probably not consume a blood dish because of the verse in Acts about telling the new Gentile converts not to consume blood (though there is some debate that this supposedly alludes to some sort of pagan practice that involved a food made out of blood... the idea of eating a food product composed mostly of blood is unappealing to me, so not difficult to stay away from either way)

It is helpful to see how other formers have handled this, if anyone else would like to comment about how they've handled this issue, please do so! And thanks. :-)
Punababe808
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Username: Punababe808

Post Number: 123
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was bought it was sin to even touch a pig. Neighbors had a let potbelly pig named Penelope. She could do tricks, real smart animal. Was told by my SDA kin it was a sin to touch Penelope. Her owners would walk her around the neighborhood on a leash.

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