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River
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Username: River

Post Number: 8125
Registered: 9-2006


Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you ever have a thought just float across you mind, and kind of stick there?

The other day the thought crossed my mind that in the final analysis SDA's that I know go about trying to save themselves, and it can't be done.

Its such a simple statement...not garnished with with a whole lot of theology.

I have noticed over the past 40 years that the Lord preaches a sermon to me using less words, and I just haven't been able to get this statement out of my mind.

Back when...God just changed my direction...all in one fell swoop as they say, and I didn't do one thing to make that happen...in fact I was lost, and going in the complete opposite direction.

The fact that we cannot save ourselves is not really a profound or unusual statement, yet it is an earth shaker.

Even if you have Bibles out the wazoo, lead a clean life, no alcohol, no smokes, no pork, a man cannot save himself from the wrath to come.

River
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 2024
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent point River.
They are simply following the teaching of their prophet. Earlier today I posted these on a FB discussion:

quote:

Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained" (Selected Messages, Book 1, pp. 396-398).



In case it isn't clear, the error here is the idea that keeping our justification is based on our works of obedience, not on faith.


quote:

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement." (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214)



Our salvation, receiving the seal of God, is based on the work that we do, "it is left to us."


quote:

A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. (Christís Object Lessons, p. 331)



Here we get a clear idea of what EGW, and the SDA church by extension, means when they use the words "merit" and "grace". The biblical doctrine is that we are counted righteous, that we receive the benefits of Christ's merit as a gift and that we are saved by this gracious gift. In EGW's doctrine, we are given the power (called grace) that we might earn our own righteousness and therefore be saved.
Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In other words, Rick, INFUSED GRACE, which is the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification. Ironic.

Craig
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 2029
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Craig, the Adventist doctrine of salvation is very much like the Roman Catholic version. But I think SDAism is even worse, if that were possible. In both cases you need to have confessed every sin (although in the SDA one the priest isn't needed). Catholicism might require a penance, but Adventist requires that the rest of your life demonstrate that the confession and repentance was truly real or else the sins will be placed back on you. I think salvation is far more works-based in SDA theology than in Catholic teaching. Isn't it ironic?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 14504
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Really interesting, Rick! You're right; I've never thought it through to that conclusion before. So true!

Colleen
Christo
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Username: Christo

Post Number: 325
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Monday, July 01, 2013 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I once was at a sabbath school class trying to go through the motions for my wife who was SDA. The presence of Gods grace was apparent in my life so I knew clearly that what was being taught at these classes was not the Gospel.


I pigeon holed the teacher to clarify his doctrine in front of the class of some 30 people, by asking him if; we were to get to the point, become such in our behavior, that we had no necessity for a Savior. His answer was YES.


I wasn't shock by his answer, but was shocked that he would be so transparent about his doctrine.

What this sabbath school teacher was teaching was that we have no need for God.

The truth is that before sin entered the world, all that existed did so as an expression of Gods grace and love, and now Gods grace and love abounds even more. Can't get much better than that!!

Chris
Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Monday, July 01, 2013 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with Adventists and other legalists is that they think The Story is about them. It's not about Adam and Eve, nor Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Daniel, Mary, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Smith, White, you or me; it's about God's glory revealed in Christ. When Christ, who is our life, appears, THEN we will appear with him in glory. Our life is in HIM. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Morningstar, the express image of our amazing God, God made flesh.

I have no more "right" to the tree of life than Adam did--BEFORE or AFTER the fall--nor will I EVER have a "right" to it. It is all of grace. Our God is not like us. He is infinitely better. All we can say is thank you and praise Him forever.

In reality, most legalists, including most Adventists, have a low view of God (and his "law") Like ancient Israel they believe that they say "all that you say, we will do," not realizing that God is infinitely pure and we, even in a sinless state, could only reflect his beauty and perfection. It is not in us, certainly not now in our sinful flesh state, but not even when the presence of sin will have been removed at glorification. I long for that day, but my need for my God to sustain me, for him to give me faith and love and life, will never end. He is the source, the . . . sorry, words just don't cut it. I hope you know what I'm trying to say.

For people to think that they can reach a state of sinlessness without a mediator, or to live without the indwelling Spirit is the most ridiculously foolish arrogance that I can imagine. Yes, very sad. So blind--so dead! And they have walled themselves in. Such a pity! Oh that they may be transfered from darkness into light!

Pray for them, brothers and sisters, which I'm sure you do. Keep supporting LAM and Proclamation. May they all come to the joy of salvation and in knowing our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise

Post Number: 3136
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It reminds me of Ellen White saying that the soul itself pushes out the sin(s) in Jesus' strength. Adventists tell themselves that it's really Jesus since Ellen White said that it's in Jesus' strength; but deep down they believe that they themselves are saved by continuing their "own dilligent effort."
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise

Post Number: 3137
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Therefore they never get saved at all, since because they're relying partly on themselves, they never accept Jesus' finished work in their behalf. ALL the cults are like that - adding works in order to be saved.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 14507
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2013 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Craig, that was so well-said! I know what you're trying to say. The entire story is HIM. We do not ever become righteous in ourselves. We ALWAYS, even in our glorified state, reflect HIM, because He is the actual substance of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That He brings us into His story is amazing. It is grace.

Colleen
Gcfrankie
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Username: Gcfrankie

Post Number: 944
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 04, 2013 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we have to add fear to the list of what they teach. They do not come right out and say it but it is implied in their teachings. They teach that you can not sit back and enjoy the fact you are saved by accepting Jesus 100% but that you have to keep working for Jesus' acceptance.
Gmatt
Registered user
Username: Gmatt

Post Number: 46
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Craig. Amen.

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