Post Number: 25
|Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 9:11 am: || |
I have recently discussed something about the Sabbath in Christ Bible doctrine with one friend of mine who is a member of Pentecostal Church (it was a FB discussion in a FB group founded by Pentecostals, but other Christians are welcome to join as well). So, we discussed about this Bible doctrine and she was very happy to learn that great doctrine from the Bible.
But then an SDA joined in and started warning us that "we better keep the Sabbath Day before we receive the mark of the beast". My friend told her that Jesus gave us the new covenant and that the old covenant is not in force any more. The SDA girl was infuriated to hear that and started throwing Bible verses about the Sabbath Day, to finally conclude with: Read Genesis 2:2.3, how God gave the Sabbath day to Adam in Eden! Not to Israel on the Sinai, but to Adam!!!!
My friend Pentecostal, who had never even thought about Sunday/Saturday issue, who had just learned that Jesus was our Sabbath, who had never participated in discussions with SDAs or even read some counter-arguments from ex-SDAs in this regard, she answered:
"That is impossible what you say. There are three things that prove that Adam could possibly NOT receive such a command from God after creation:
1. Adam could not rest on the seventh day of the creation, because that would mean the very breaking of the Fourth Command which says: "For SIX DAYS shall you work FIRST before you rest on the seventh day". Adam, if at all, could work only ONE day before resting on the seventh day of the creation week, having been made on the day before.
2. The seventh day of the creation week was not the seventh day of Adam's life, but the second day of his life. That would mean that we are to rest on MONDAY (being the second day of the week according to the Bible).
3. After having eaten the forbidden fruit, Adam was cursed to WORK/TOIL all his life for daily bread. Eve was also cursed by LABOR. And in that very occasion, God NEVER says: "But although you'll have to work/toil/labor as slaves to Earth, you'll be able to rest on every seventh day of the week." No, God does not mention rest on that occasion. But He DOES mention the MESSIAH!"
I was really surprised to read such an answer from a person who had never even considered such a topic before. I would expect such a reply from another ex-SDA like me, but from her... I asked her: "Great answer! Where have you got those idea from?" She told me that she did not know herself either. She never thought about this. She just told what was on top of her head at the time. Since she is Pentecostal, she normally tends to think that it was the Holy Spirit who worked with her there. I tend to believe her, honestly.
Post Number: 760
|Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 10:28 pm: || |
Post Number: 365
|Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 4:38 am: || |
Genesis does say that God blessed the 7th day and hallowed it. The Ten Commandments do say that the 7th day is holy because God made the Earth in six days and rested on the 7th.
I don't see any account of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the Ten Commandments came out. Yet Genesis is clear on the 7th day being set apart.
Post Number: 3250
|Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 4:24 pm: || |
Yes, God DID rest and bless the 7th day, but not the anniversaries of that day - the 14th, 21st, 28th, etc. Also He never stopped resting. He invites everyone to enter His rest. The Sabbath was only given to Israel and it was first given at the giving of the manna as told in Exodus 16. I think that was only weeks before the giving of the 10 Commandments.
Post Number: 14657
|Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 5:09 pm: || |
Wow, those are good answers, Polgarahh! And yes, while God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, that day was the day God "ceased", and it is not bounded by "the evening and the morning were the ________ day" as were the others. It was a day whose effects did not end; God's perfect, finished work was in place beginning on that seventh day.
Post Number: 2
|Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 7:09 am: || |
The Jewish people, who understand the Sabbath, recognize that it was not given to Adam, nor is it a creation ordinance.
I personally contacted a few Jewish rabbis with these questions, and their replies were very interesting.
Post Number: 3
|Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 7:37 am: || |
Here are the quotes from these rabbis:
Gentiles are not meant to keep Shabbat…including all the people you’ve mentioned as well as all Gentiles today. Based on the Talmud it seems that Abraham did observe the Shabbat.
If by creation ordinance you mean A Noahide Commandment, then no it is not a creation ordinance.
Thank you for your insightful question. The answer is; it is written in the Torah that Shabbat is G-d’s special gift “between me and the Jewish people, a sign forever”. Shabbat is only for the Jewish people. I hope this is helpful.
Shabbat is only given to the Jewish people or those converts to Judaism that will join them. Before the giving of the Torah there was no obligation to observe Shabbat, and gentiles don’t need to observe Shabbat.
The commandment to observe Shabbos was given specifically to the Jewish people. There is no reference in the Torah for it applying to other nations. I hope this helps.
All the best,
Post Number: 3304
|Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 1:00 pm: || |
Welcome to the forum, Leifl!
Post Number: 4
|Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 3:02 pm: || |
Thanks! Each of us has a journey that has led us to know the Lord better. Even though we are weak and often fail, He is there as a faithful Shepherd to lead and guide.
Five years ago, I would have never dreamt that we would be involved in an evangelical church. My wife and I had grown up with "the truth", but at a point we realized that our knowledge of the truth as it is "in Christ" was lacking.
In our search to know Jesus better, we were led to a small baptist congregation. They were wonderfully accepting of us with our questions and baggage. They accepted us into membership, and we are now in leadership and teaching positions there - positions that we did not seek, but areas of service that they felt we were able to contribute.
We realized that we had many things to learn, and needed to be part of a visible body. There are still (just a few) areas that we struggle with in our understanding - but the main concern is that we are "complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power." It is faith in Christ and His completed work that is our only hope, not faith in a system of beliefs or ritual practices.
Though this change has caused many strained relationships, and anguish, we have learned to leave this in the Lord's hands and not to be judgmental of others. After all, we were there once, and it is only by grace that we can see, not because of our own merit or worthiness.
Lets learn to keep the "main thing" the main thing, and extend the grace to others that God has so freely extended to us.
(Message edited by Leifl on March 02, 2014)
Post Number: 66
|Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 5:19 pm: || |
Jewish tradition holds that Moses was given the written Torah, the first give books of our Old Testament (The "Pentateuch"). At the same time, Judaism insists that Moses was also given the Oral Torah ("The Mishnah"), which is about 95 percent of the entire Torah. Of course, us conceited Adventists thought we knew everything there was to know about the Old Testament Law, so we disregarded the Oral Torah tradition, as well as the vast body of Talmudic writings. Judaism agrees with Christendom that God gave Noah the 7 "Noahide Mitzvot"(Commandments), and there is a vast body of Talmudic interpretation of the Noahide Mitzvot. Ellen White, while plagiarizing much of "Patriarchs and Prophets" from a Biblical scholar named Edersheim, made a calculated decision to withhold mentioning the Noahide Mitzvot from Adventists. It fit well within her fatuous smear that Christians who believe the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross do so because they desire to kill, steal, lie and commit adultery. Deliberately withholding the existence of the 7 Noahide Mitzvot added to the credibility of her argument. What most Christians, and many Jews for that matter, do not know is that 6 of the Noahide Mitzvot were given to Adam, according to the Mishnah Torah. Here is how the Mishnah Torah describes the relationship among the various pre-Mosaic Covenants:
9.1 Adam, the first man, was commanded with six Mitzvot: 1) idolatry, 2) “blessing” (euphemistically) the Name (of G-d), 3) murder, 4) illicit sexual relations, 5) thievery and, 6) establishing a system of justice.
9.2 Even though all of these have been received as a Tradition from Moses our Teacher and we can understand the rationale for them, nevertheless, from (verses in) the Torah (we learn that) it was these that they were commanded. A seventh commandment forbidding the eating of a limb torn from a live animal was added for Noah, as it says, “Even flesh, life is in the blood, do not eat of it” (Genesis 9:4).
9.3 These commandments were universally applicable - until Abraham. With Abraham, circumcision was also commanded and he prayed Shacharis (the Morning Prayer). Isaac separated out a tithe and added another prayer in the afternoon and, with Jacob, the prohibition against eating the sciatic nerve was added, as was the Maariv (Evening) Prayer. In Egypt, Amram was commanded with other precepts and, with Moses our Teacher, the Torah was completed."
So you see, Judaism is emphatic that Adam - given the 6 Adamic Mitzvot; and Noah - having the 6 Adamic Mitzvot reaffirmed "plus one" demonstrate conclusively that the Sabbath was not a creation ordinance. Nor did Abraham, Isaac or Jacob ever keep the Sabbath. Judaism is adamant that the Sabbath was given ONLY to them as a sign to separate them from all the nations (which only had the 7 Noahide Mitzvot).