Post Number: 140
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 9:02 am: || |
If anything proves that Adventism is a "cult," it is THIS anti-Christian monstrosity. There are at least 3 if not 4 of the major tenants of LGT that were specifically-addressed, and vigorously rejected in the first 3 or 4 General Church Councils.
If you closely read the discussion, it is very clear that the LGT advocates quote EGW correctly.
There is a reason why the Founders of Adventism almost unanimously rejected the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity. Both of those fundamental Christian doctrines are absolutely incompatible with LGT. Which is why when EGW is honestly analyzed, she clearly advocates LGT. You simply cannot read "The Great Controversy" in its context and deny that LGT is the only "Adventism" that is consistent with this foundational book.
I get great amusement in reading the "liberal Adventists" who downplay Ellen White in their misguided attempt to reform something that simply cannot be reformed. Adventism is NOT CHristianity and cannot be made "more like Christianity" without completely abandoning Ellen White.
In my frequent dialogues with ex-Adventist atheists who follow the debates on the Spectrum website, it is clear to everybody the LGT contingent has the accurate sense of what Ellen White was saying (look particularly for the postings of Kevin Paulsen).
Post Number: 1062
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 10:37 am: || |
Can you list the 3 or 4 major tenets of LGT, and which ones violate which councils?
Obviously the Pelagianism of LGT violates the Council of Carthage.
Post Number: 141
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 11:54 am: || |
All three of the following violate the First Council of Nicaea. Remember, in service of this Perfectionist belief system, the Adventist Founders nearly unanimously rejected both the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ. Ellen White also taught that Jesus was born with a sinful human nature, which as you pointed out is the Pelagian heresy condemned by Carthage.
- The Divinity of Christ
Highest on this list of perfectionist traits is Sabbath Keeping, which was condemned by of course Laodicea.
The emphasis on law-keeping is similar to the Judaizing heresy which was repeatedly denounced at Church Councils.
Post Number: 14866
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 12:11 pm: || |
Moreover, the book of Galatians and the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 exposes the fallacy of adding law-keeping to the gospel. The Judaizers were dangerous because they claimed Christianity. They affirmed Jesus as the Messiah and mouthed the necessity of His death, burial, and resurrection. But they said the gentile converts would have a better, more spiritual experience if they adopted the law and thus identified themselves with the chosen race of Israel. Interestingly, Adventism also identifies itself with "Israel".
The gospel is perverted and, Paul said, people fall from grace if they add any of the law back into the equation.
I agree about the LGT advocates. Kevin Paulson is particularly articulate and insistent about this subject. He and his men attended a meeting where Dale Ratzlaff spoke in the early 2000's at Trinity Church. They were relentless in their questioning and attempting to buttonhole and trip Dale in his teaching. They were unable to phase Dale, of course, but the episode was particularly "close to home" for Dale because he taught Kevin at Monterrey Bay Academy.
Post Number: 143
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 12:25 pm: || |
Wow Colleen that is an amazing story!
I DO believe that Kevin, as utterly-wrongheaded as he is, is one of the few Adventists who have honesty and courage to follow Adventist beliefs to their insane logical outcome, and who has a theology that is congruent with Ellen White's writings and Adventist history. To me - and again, what he teaches is emphatically NOT Christianity - he is FAR more intellectually honest than the "liberals" who are trying to "reform" Adventism into something that does not remotely resemble its historical complexion.
How can you "reform" Adventism into becoming another Evangelical Protestant denomination, when throughout its history it strongly branded Sunday-keeping Evangelicals as the "Apostate Daughters of the Whore of Babylon?" Or how can you drop the most offensive anti-Gospel, anti-biblical doctrine - the Investigative Judgment - without jettisoning the Sabbath, EGW's status as a "prophet," 1844, and all of the other "Remnant Church" lunacy?
Kevin is consistent: You cannot dump one of those doctrines without dumping all of them.
Post Number: 3430
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 12:52 pm: || |
And the strange thing is; knowledgable Christians don't even "keep" Sunday! They realize that Jesus is the fulfillment of all the Sabbaths and that He is their Sabbath Rest now!
Of course, I never heard that when I was an Adventist. I really thought that they were "Sunday keepers" who didn't do a very good job keeping their day!
Post Number: 1063
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 3:56 pm: || |
Have to admit I'm not terribly familiar with LGT. Is there any article or something describing it?
Post Number: 147
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 4:07 pm: || |
The link I posted has a long-article that describes it, along with some pretty good debaters kicking around details following it.
Post Number: 336
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 4:28 pm: || |
I've been on this thread on Spectrum, too. Well, as usual, it is maddening.
I agree with your observations, Res. Kevin is actually following what EGW says. She is all about perfecting one's character so as to stand without a mediator and the idea of defending God's character.
Then, the other more liberal SDA's jump in with her quotes that are more gospel sounding.
Ellen can be used in any fashion, because she wrote contradictory statements, or copied as the case may be. It is amazing how anyone who does consider themselves more liberal, and actually knows about a lot of the problems with Ellen White, and has seen the dysfunction of Adventism, can stay there. The thought of attending an Adventist church and listening to any kind of sermon, liberal or conservative, is not something I would ever do again, under any circumstances. No way!
Kevin, is true blue to Ellen, and is always right. I'm sure you have seen his "wrong again" comments to almost everyone who disagrees with him, which is almost everyone on the blog. Horrible. I could only think of the saying, "Don't wrestle with a pig. You both get muddy, but the pig enjoys it"
Post Number: 148
|Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 4:44 pm: || |
I was raised in a slow-motion LGT horror movie and it took me a solid 33 years after I left to muster the wherewithal to open a Bible again. So I am thankful for the Kevin Paulsons of this world: They constantly remind me of what is so awful about Seventh Day Adventism. At least he is honest and cares nothing whether Evangelicals think he is in cult. He teaches Real Adventism.
The rest of Adventism is severely dishonest by contrast, trying to slink by the cult-hunters by sending out Gospel-sounding and Christian-sounding flak and subterfuge.
Post Number: 345
|Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2014 - 2:47 pm: || |
Resjudicata..... There is a intense presentation of SDA LGT and its requirement for perfection of character over on the CARM forum.
Several threads have bee devoted to this discussion and the SDA's... one pastor, one teacher and 4 members have been involved at one time or another with the usual spin and side stepping.
Please have a look and PLEASE add your well researched and written perspective.
You will be warmly welcomed!!!
Post Number: 156
|Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2014 - 3:55 pm: || |
Thank you for your kind remarks and your kind offer. I have browsed through some of the blogs that you recommended. Do I detect the "Jd" correctly in your name as your possession of a law degree? If so, might I recommend for your reading pleasure one of my favorite and easiest-reading portions of the Mishnah Torah found here:
http://halakhah.com/rst/kingsandwars.pdf and a basic overview of the role of the Ten Commandments within the structure of the 613 Mitzvot:
Whether I write and research for the CARM forum, I have repeatedly found that section of the Mishnah Torah to be absolutely fatal to any important SDA doctrine. Based as those doctrine are on the repeated willful withholding of important historical facts from the Adventist membership. I would strongly recommend that you adopt some of the brilliant thinking found within the Rambam's life work. My poor efforts to clumsily and vainly pay tribune to the effervescently-brilliant Rambam only reminds me that I was never fit to lick the mud off his boots.
The part that worries me about engaging with real live Adventists is the disturbing way they think (or mindlessly don't think actually) about the Law. Their entire legal "education" emanated from EGW, which is to say the least, not a credible source of legal reasoning. Over and over again, in my reading of the Babylonian Talmud, I have been stunned and amazed by the most brilliant and astute reasoning that is prevalent in the Sanhedrin's written opinions. The Sanhedrin's legal reasoning does not differ appreciably from the current en Vogue "Legal Realism" that infests the American legal system. It just feels "homey," and familiar. I just cannot get my mind around Ellen White's legal pronouncements.....they just feel......screechy. Hollow. Unpersuasive. Childish.
But I will follow along and maybe respond in time. However, I have found the ex-Adventists on this forum have regained their curiosity and intellectual honesty. Not sure that is something I will ever find among current Adventists.
(Message edited by Resjudicata on July 09, 2014)
Post Number: 178
|Posted on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 3:57 pm: || |
All my worst fears about engaging with Adventists are demonstrated here:
It does appears that LGT advocates have firmly hijacked Spectrum.