| Author | Message | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2014  |
Decided to address the Sabbath issue head on with friends and family. We've been attending an evangelical church for a few years, but some in our local SDA congregation found my blog, which caused a stir. Here is the letter: http://youarecompleteinhim.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/open-letter-adventist-family-friends/ This is not so easy - we still enjoy Saturday as our rest/family day, and our Baptist friends (including the pastors of our church) think that we are seventh day Sabbatarian, and our Adventist friends think we are "Sabbath breakers". Funny thing is that we don't have any judgment on the issue from the one side, but do deel it from the other. I'll leave you to figure that out. Anyway, we do wish our Adventist friends and family the best of God's blessing, but wish they could grasp what salvation by grace really means. We can see the bondage, but can't do anything about it. The Sabbath is not the issue - it certainly can be a blessing, they don't have to change that. But the context of SDAism is that it is a gateway into Christ and his body, necessary for all "true" Christians, has always been kept by the remnant, constitutes the seal of God, etc. This cuts across the true gospel in so many ways. Thanks for reading. | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2014 |
Just a note: we do gather for worship on Sunday. But we work in the afternoons like any other day. Saturday is our day off, but we are not Sabbath-keepers, because to legitimately qualify for that is rigorous. We abstain from most secular work, but don't have any strict rules for its observance. If we need fuel, we buy it. But I can't see the blessing in slaving 7 days a week; Sabbath was meant to break the cycle of slavery, to be a day of refreshment for man and beast. So, for us, it remains a blessed day of joyful rest, reading, family time, hikes, extra family worship time, etc. (Message edited by LeifL on July 11, 2014) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2014 |
Leifl, I read your beautiful letter and compliment you on its gentle contents. However, Adventists flatter themselves with what they call their "Sabbath." The Sabbath that was enforced in Jesus Christ's time was emphatically NOT observed on Saturdays. The Jews at that time set their "weeks" using the phases of the moon, and the "New Moons" day of celebration the Bible describes was the "First Day" of the New Month. That day was officially set by the Sanhedrin. The Seven-Day week and Saturday as the 7th Day are all Pagan institutions. Here are some links that describe the Lunar Sabbath that Jesus observed: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526874/jewish/The-Jewish-Month.htm http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/PhiloJosephus LunarSabbath.pdf http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/History_of_a_Lie.pdf http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/what_day_is_the_sabbath.htm http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm Real Sabbath keepers would quickly discover the Sabbath was NOT on "Saturday" most of the time. Most of the time, it would be on another day of the week, with Sunday "Sabbaths" as frequent as Saturday ones. Adventists actually observe a "Day of Rest" that is every bit as Pagan in origin as they claim Sunday observance is! Adventists assume that the 7-day week is modeled after the Creation week and that the Jews somehow kept the same seven-day week throughout history. They did not. They followed the Biblical Command in Genesis 1:14: "Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for SIGNS and SEASONS, and for DAYS and YEARS." A Saturday Sabbath is unbiblical and was never followed by Jesus or anyone else in the Bible. I have long suspected that the immediate abandonment of the Sabbath by the Apostles had one unspoken component: Keeping the "Real Sabbath" as kept throughout history would have just been impossible with Christianity's emphasis on evangelizing the Pagans. (Message edited by Resjudicata on July 12, 2014) | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2014 |
Hello, Thanks for your comment. I'm not convinced that the Jews of Jesus time kept a lunar Sabbath. All accounts that I have read indicate that they were using a 7-day week like the Egyptians. Even the Karaite Jews of today (modern Sadducees, who ruled the temple in a Jesus' day) use a fixed Sabbath. In the New Testament, the first day of the week seems to follow the Sabbath. But I will give it some consideration. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 164 Registered: 4-2014 |
The Jerusalem Talmud is replete with references to the Sanhedrin officially setting the date of the New Moon, from which the 7-day "weeks" were carved into four "chunks". Here are the technical details: "In order for the new month to begin, the Sanhedrin (highest Jewish Court) must declare "Rosh Chodesh." (The Sanhedrin does not exist today, for technical reasons, but someday it will be reinstated, either after the Messiah comes, or just before the Messiah comes.) Rosh Chodesh literally means "Head of the Month." This refers to the minor holiday of the first day (or the first two days, depending) of the new month. When the Sanhedrin declared the new month, that day was Rosh Chodesh, and it was therefore a minor Holiday, with specific levels of holiness attached to it. The Talmud therefore refers to that process as "Sanctifying the New Moon." Rosh Chodesh was declared only after two witnesses came to the Sanhedrin and testified that they had seen the new moon (a little piece of the moon beginning to show) during the previous night. If no witnesses showed up by the thirtieth day of the month, Rosh Chodesh was declared on the thirty-first day (the previous month will therefore have thirty days), and all the dates of the coming month were thus set." http://www.beingjewish.com/yomtov/chodesh/newmoon.html And here's from the Jewish Encyclopedia: "It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence (Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). The old Semites worshiped the moon and the stars (Hommel, "Der Gestirndienst der Alten Araber"). Nomads and shepherds, they regarded the night as benevolent, the day with its withering heat as malevolent. In this way the moon ("Sinai" = "moon ["sin"] mountain") became central in their pantheon. The moon, however, has four phases in approximately 28 days, and it seemingly comes to a standstill every seven days.?" http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12962-sabbath There's just too much documentation and history that supports the lunar Sabbath concept. Also, St. Paul explicitly mentions "New Moons" and "Sabbaths" in the same breath in Colossians 2:16, when referring to obsolete ceremonies that were "nailed to the Cross." | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2014 |
I recognize that the "moveable" feasts were lunar based. But I'm looking for decisive evidence that they used the moon to establish the Sabbath, which was celebrated "every seventh day". | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2014 |
Most of the "Lunar Sabbath" advocates I have rubbed shoulders with have been OCD types, very imbalanced. It consumes their whole being. I read through some of the materials. These people are still convinced that they must get their keeping of a day right to be in favour with God. That is the underlying fallacy. The gospel teaches that we have favour with God through the completed work of Christ, when we accept him by faith, trusting him and and his work only. It's not the day, it's the Person that matters. (Message edited by LeifL on July 12, 2014) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 165 Registered: 4-2014 |
Yes they DO follow a fallacy of "keeping the day right," which is completely impossible in the aftermath of the destruction of the Second Temple. You can "keep it," but you can't keep it "Holy" without the Temple ceremonies. Which is precisely my argument from above: It would have been completely impossible for the Apostles to "sell" Gentile Christian converts on the idea of the Sabbath, given all of the technical problems alone. Coupled with the raw, unvarnished hatred of the Greeks and Romans for the Sabbath and circumcision, a Christian Sabbath would have confined Christianity to being a small obscure sect of Judaism, competing with two other sects, localized around Jerusalem. And to further ruin the case for a continuing Sabbath was Jesus's open and willful violation of the Sabbath, and encouraging his Disciples to do the same. It's all consistent: Jesus's open and willful violation of the Sabbath, coupled with the overwhelming impact of the Resurrection and the Day of Pentecost, the hatred of Greek and Roman Gentiles for the Sabbath, and St. Paul's pointed, repeated and vigorous denunciation of the Sabbath. The Sabbath always has been and always will be a dead letter for Christianity. Let alone the modern problems of our thousands of "manservants and maidservants" in a globalized economy that are out there busily "working" for us on every Sabbath. Plainly, the Sabbath was an ordinance meant for a discrete, insular, homogeneous and localized culture. (Message edited by Resjudicata on July 12, 2014) | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2014 |
Where do you source your history of Ignatius of Antioch? I familiar with some of his quotations, but would like to find a good bio. Perhaps I'll search Google. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 166 Registered: 4-2014 |
You have joined me in admiration of St. Ignatius I see. He has been a real hero of mine for about a year. Here's a good page with lots of resources: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html And to top off his heroics at the end of his life, he was a direct disciple of John and Peter, and probably personally knew Paul pretty well. Is that credibility or what? And his denunciations of Sabbath Keeping are legendary (read Polycarp). For Adventists to convict a guy like Ignatius with Apostasy on the Sabbath question faces almost an insurmountable burden of proof. It is clear he gained his anti-Sabbatarian principles from two, and possibly three of the original Apostles and wrote his Letter to the Magnesiums on his way to his ultimate destiny with the Lions. (Message edited by Resjudicata on July 12, 2014) | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2014 |
It's not Polycarp, but his letter to the Magnesians? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2014 |
Ignatius's letter to the Magnesiums is his harshest anti-Sabbatarian denunciation. Polycarp strongly endorsed Ignatius's letters, and Polycarp was also a disciple of John the Evangelist. "The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge; the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tixeront/section1-1.html#polycarp There can be no doubt what John's meaning of "The Lord's Day" meant in Revelations, with two followers like Ignatius and Polycarp. (Message edited by Resjudicata on July 12, 2014) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 168 Registered: 4-2014 |
You might also want to note that Seventh Day Adventists have known since 1888 that Eastern Orthodoxy, which EGW does not mention one single time in ANY of her writings, adamantly insists that the first "Lord's day" took place on the Dawn of Resurrection morning. A claim that has never been disputed or refuted by Adventists in ANY of their literature, including Bacchiochi: "Our Church, which includes all the very first Churches founded by the apostles, such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, Alexandria, and even Rome, for the first three hundred years, has kept the 'first day of the week' as a day of rest and in holy remembrance of the Resurrection of our Blessed Lord from the dead. From the dawn of Christianity she bears witness that it has been the Sacred Day on which the faithful assembled for the partaking of the Lord's Supper, for the saying of public prayer, and the hearing of sermons. "Our Holy Traditions, the Sub-Apostolic, Anti-Nicene and Sub-Nicene Fathers, as well as all of our historians, also bear testimony to this fact. Under the head of the Fourth Commandment in our Catechism, which is accepted by the whole Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church, this instruction is given. And both the Roman Church and all other Churches which regard the authority of antiquity, calling themselves Protestant, agree on this very fact, viz., that the Lord's Day (the first day of the week) has been observed from the morning of the Resurrection till this moment. http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING%20FOR%20GOD.pdfAppendix IV – Page 326 - Eastern Orthodox Origin of Sunday Observance Adventists are caught up in their Anti-Roman Catholic frenzy and simply ignore Eastern Orthodoxy - 2,000 years old with presently 300 million members. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3431 Registered: 7-2007 |
Leifl; that's a very good letter! Thanks for posting it.  For Adventists who still have trouble seeing that the Sabbath [day] was given ONLY to Israel; I'd like to put down a couple verses. Here Moses is talking to Israel: " And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13 And again, Moses talking to Israel: "And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today." Deuteronomy 5:1-3 I'm SO glad that Jesus is my Sabbath Rest now! | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2014 |
That is a very well thought out letter. My SDA kin would figure me lost to the lake of fire but your kinfolk might be more generous with who they think will and will not have eternal life with our Saviour | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2014 |
Thanks for the comments. There were over 200 visits in 2 days, so far it has been rather quiet. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14879 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, that happens, Leifl. When we left we had a flurry of opportunities to tell people why we had left, but once they heard us...they just began to disappear. It's odd...but it's also not surprising. I'm sorry...but good for you! Colleen | ||
| Terryohare Registered user Username: Terryohare Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2012  |
“This is where mandated Sabbath observance cuts across the principles of the gospel, for it overlooks the fact that what the Jews were looking for but could not find in the Sabbath, Christians have been given in Jesus. Once we know Christ, and rest in him by faith, we can not return to the Sabbath to fulfill our need for spiritual rest. (Matt. 11:28-30)” Love this quote. I hope you experience the satisfaction that your blog was influential in helping an Adventist reexamine his position on this subject, and more importantly, that in doing so, causes him to look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, the One in whom we are complete. |
