Post Number: 348
|Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2014 - 3:59 pm: || |
That's hilarious: ".....the extreme effort we went through to prevent fermentation."
There is a complete absence of historical support that anyone during Jesus's time or the apostles's time had either the desire for such effort, or the ability to pasteurize. Grape Juice just loves getting drunk. Its what it does. That is it's nature.
Much of the Adventist position on grape juice versus wine was straightforwardly plagiarized from the Methodists, according to my research. Only the Methodists did it for a valid reason: out of respect for alcoholics and a stand for temperance. Whereas the Adventists took it a step further and announced that the Bible commands it.
I remember as an Adventist youngster signing a temperance promise of some sort or another every now and then. Does anybody remember that? Yeah. As an 8 year old, I was just burning up to guzzle down a jug of Southern Comfort. I remember thinking at the time "This is just too easy." It seemed more like an emblem of unctuous self-righteousness than anything else.
Post Number: 97
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 4:21 am: || |
Once again 1 Corinthians 6:18-20. Drinking is not a sin.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 8 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Post Number: 14955
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 2:43 pm: || |
Again, such a great thread!
It's been interesting to notice, over the past 15 years that Richard and I have been working with former Adventists, that one of the first and most compelling "permissions" people give themselves when they leave is open wine-drinking. No one, it seems, leaves Adventism and says, "Oh, goody...I get to eat ham!"
What we do see is fascination with wine. Of course, other alcoholic beverages can be included, but wine is the thing that seems to get the most initial attention.
Of course, drinking wine is not a sin. Nevertheless, the powerful "draw" that wine has on many formers is interesting to me. We've even seen several formers who have become so fond of their new permission that they talk about it a lot, and it seems sometimes that wine becomes a point of subtle bragging, or indulgence.
During our years of studying our way out of Adventism, we did drink wine on a few occasions. But early in our FAF days, Richard and I decided that, because of this ministry and because of the tendency so many formers have of experimenting on a sort-of compulsive basis with alcohol, we would not drink nor serve alcohol. It's a decision we made explicitly because of the nature of our work.
But yes...I agree, 1John...I have thought for years that EGW was addicted to alcohol.
Post Number: 59
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 3:00 pm: || |
I have a profound allergic reaction to wine
I have been told it's the tinnins (sp?) that the wine barrels are lined with. Can anyone explain this to me and refere to a wine that hasn't had that chemical added. I had some homemade pommagranet wine recently and did not have an allergic reaction
Post Number: 3088
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 5:07 pm: || |
Tannin is found in oak wood. Since oak casks are commonly used to age wine trace among of tannin gets into the wine since tannin is part of the desired aging process. I am told that when the tannin is depleted then the casks go on to live another life aging whiskey. Knowing this about oak casks, it follows that if wine is aged by not using oak casks then you probably wouldn’t have a reaction to drinking it. Historically tannin was also used as one way of tanning leather.
Post Number: 352
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 5:58 pm: || |
A guy in my church lives next door to an Adventist family, and they always have big Adventist gatherings. Nowadays, the "progressive Adventists" stay in the church AND openly drink wine and eat meat (including pork) which he finds utterly fascinating. Apparently there are plenty of them like that, because he says he often is invited to some pretty huge parties.
Kevin Paulson calls these "Adventists in Name Only."
Post Number: 539
|Posted on Monday, November 03, 2014 - 8:02 pm: || |
As a former I gave my self permission to try & enjoy things that I knew in my 'head' were unbiblically called wrong -- so drinking is one of them. In my younger years I would have become addicted I am utterly sure. I had to go through emotional healing 25 years ago. I needed to act on what I said I believed, & to give myself the freedom I said others could have.
I also found some interesting scriptures in numerous trips through the bible.
I love this passage in the song of Moses. Notice how he says God NOURISHED them -- Deuteronomy 32
13 He let them ride over the highlands
and feast on the crops of the fields.
He nourished them with honey from the rock
and olive oil from the stony ground.
14 He fed them yogurt from the herd
and milk from the flock,
together with the fat of lambs.
He gave them choice rams from Bashan, and goats,
together with the choicest wheat.
You drank the finest wine,
made from the juice of grapes.
fat of lambs/goats,
the finest wine made from the juice of grapes
It grieves me today that we are denied these things by anyone for any reason.
It grieves me that so much good nourishing food has been perverted; that wine is seen as dangerous or most likely addictive
I believe foods & drink have been perverted demonically, so that it harms our bodies, causes us to believe lies, & keeps us separate & makes it difficult to eat together
Here's another favorite passage of mine -- Psalm 104:14-15
Psalm 104:14-15 (NLT)
14 You cause grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for people to use.
You allow them to produce food from the earth—
15 wine to make them glad,
olive oil to soothe their skin,
and bread to give them strength.
God provides good things:
food from the earth
WINE to MAKE THEM GLAD
olive oil too soothe their skin
BREAD to GIVE THEM STRENGTH
Do you see how many of God's good blessings are not, or cannot be enjoyed in today's world, by so many people?!
As you said one time (about meat eating I think) Colleen, "if God says it's good to eat, who am I to say it's not?!" I may not have that quoted exactly -- loose paraphrase = apologize if I'm misquoting.
I needed to be free to enjoy all these things. For me it's part of taking God at His Word = obedience in a certain perspective, because 'doctrines of demons' say to taste not, touch not.
Post Number: 354
|Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 5:57 am: || |
Ex-Adventists have an "obsession" with open wine-drinking because they have escaped from a cult that blew the issue wildly, insanely out of all proportion, with absolutely no biblical basis for their stance whatsoever. In many ways, that obsession with open wine drinking by formers is just as sad and pathetic as the original unwise and unbiblical tee-totaller fetish that powers it.
I find my own response to the issue indicative. My church has real wine in the Eucharist. And yet I am a teetotaller, not because of any moral issue or any biblical injunction one way or another; but because alcohol just does not interest me anymore. And yet many Evangelical churches insist on serving grape juice at communion, when clearly that is not what Christ served. However, I respect the motives of the Evangelicals, since they are concerned about the well-being recovering alcoholics in their midst. I spoke to the Pastor of a local megachurch about that, and he confirmed my observation. His church is just packed every Sunday with recovering alcoholics and addicts and alcohol in the Eucharist would be a huge mistake.
I guess it boils down to balance, which neither the Adventist Church or all-too many Formers (apparently) lack. So here is my summation:
a). The churches that serve real wine with the Eucharist are balanced and biblical, since they are merely following the clear, literal example of Christ;
b). The Churches that do NOT serve wine with the Eucharist are balanced and biblical, because they are concerned about the well-being of ex-Alcoholics in their midst. Or alternatively, the decision that Colleen and Richard made to abstain from alcohol because their ex-Adventist ministry ministers to people that have an unhealthy obsession with it.
c). And then there is the insane, unbiblical and unbalanced view of Adventists and some ex-Adventists that blow the issue out of all reasonable bounds, turning it into a either/or teetotaller-or-go-to-hell of the church; versus ex-Adventists and "I-am-free-now-so-I-have-a-wine-fetish-out-of-pure-relief-from-being-delivered-from-a-toxic-cult."
It seems "a" and "b" reflect the nuanced Biblical position, whereas "c" does not.
Post Number: 540
|Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 6:21 am: || |
Perhaps choosing to try the 'falsely forbidden' is an example of the pendulum -- swinging from one ditch to the other on its way back to the center?! maybe a little truth, maybe a little tongue in cheek there.
For those raised in fundamentalist, 'it is forbidden' mentality, I have heard that IF they experiment with (for example) drugs or alcohol they are 4 TIMES more likely to become addicted than those not raised that way. When my oldest daughter went to college & had a roommate from Scotland, & other British friends, they had been raised with beer, going to pubs with their parents, & could not believe the binge drinking & addiction they found here in the states among their college peers in the USA. It seems to be true for other Europeans as well, the Italians & French come to mind. Raised with wine, not having it forbidden, it is less of a 'problem' in terms of addiction.
The Methodist church where I have taken communion serves both: a chalice with wine, or a chalice with grape juice. There are 2 lines & people have a choice. Seems to me that is part of 'being in the world, but not of it." Addicts have to learn how to live in a world where both exist.
If I throw a party, can I offer both alcohol & non-alcoholic beverages to a group of people, some of whom are/have been addicts in the past? Will I even KNOW who is or who isn't? If a person chooses not to drink, is it because they just don't like the taste, or because they have been an addict? I have been with couples who have one who drinks, the other doesn't & says "I'm allergic" to alcohol. Their spouse drinks, & they serve alcohol at parties in their home. Is this cruel, uncaring? or is is part of learning how to live 'in the world'?
I am not totally convinced that choosing to be a teetotaler in all situations & cases is required as a definition of being a follower of Jesus or a caring christian.
There is a balance & a learning curve in all of this. Following Scriptures, and the Spirit, personally, are the key for me in all of this.
Post Number: 355
|Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 7:48 am: || |
Definitely choosing to be a teetotaler is NOT required as a definition of being a follower of Jesus. Christianity requires a more nuanced paradox: Both teetoallers and drinkers must respect each other, and above all, the lack of hospitality is a sin here. A teetotaller that condemns social drinkers is being non-hospitable. A social drinker that does not respect a teetotaller is being non-hospitable to the "stranger within their gates."
The Methodist solution seems almost ideal: embracing the paradox and contradiction of being hospitable to both sides.
Post Number: 14961
|Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 - 5:51 pm: || |
Oh, I agree; choosing to be a teetotaler is not required even for me as a part of being a follower of Jesus. I totally agree.
We have dealt with a pretty wide range of "issues" among the former Adventists we've encountered over the years. Because we open our home on Sundays for lunch to our FAF group, we have had a lot of different people with different problems eating at our table. By choosing not to drink or serve alcohol, we've eliminated the potential of having people drink inappropriately in our house on a regular basis.
We've stretched them plenty by serving the occasional pork and our Easter ham...we still have some who are vegetarians who come and eat. I know that most people wouldn't misuse alcohol if we served it, but because of that predilection to "go for broke" when the traces are off (and also because some of the people coming through were serious alcoholics BEFORE they left Adventism and found Jesus), eliminating the alcohol has simply made it easier to socialize with those on that tender cusp of transitioning. Plus--we never wanted to be anyone's "excuse" for drinking if they might not have on their own, you know..."Well, The Tinkers serve wine..."
I'm not advocating total abstinence. This is just a choice based on our particular situation. It eliminates some potential problems that could blur the purpose of why we're here...
Post Number: 102
|Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2014 - 9:48 am: || |
The scripture makes it clear that in and of itself alcohol use is not a sin. The scripture also says that there is an appropriate time and place for everything.
Recently I went on a business trip to Atlanta. A lot of the people I socialized with are practicing christians some Baptist and some form other denominations. The first night there we all went out to dinner together. When the waiter asked what we wanted to drink some requested a beer some requested water or soda. When they came to me I asked for three fingers or single malt scotch without ice. A number of eye brows went up. I drank my scotch and then switched to ice tea. Not because of the eye brows but because that is what I do when I drink scotch. Didn't get drunk or buzzed just took the edge off.
The next time we went to dinner togther I ordered the same thing. No one batted an eye.
The point is this if you consume alcohol do it in an appropriate place in an appropriate manner. Don't get drunk and never consume when you will be driving.
I believe this honors God who gave us alcohol. He has to be the creator of fermentation. Because John chapter 1 says "nothing has been made that was not made by Him"
I would not server alcohol at an event in my home either. Almost eveyone would be driving.
(Message edited by CapRoss on November 05, 2014)
Post Number: 29
|Posted on Friday, November 07, 2014 - 3:10 am: || |
What I really object to is not someone's choice to be a teetotaller - after all, I am one myself. What I find despicable is to declare all consumption of alcohol to be sin when clearly the Bible does not do so. Isn't this a prime example of adding to the Bible?
Wow, and then, to top it off they say that all who have received the light will join SDAism (meaning you need to promise not to drink) or be eternally damned for rejecting truth.
When I think of it, this is so reprehensible! No wonder Paul considers ordering people to abstain from foods created by God as a teaching of demons.
I suppose this teaching is held because EGW calls it sin in MH.
Post Number: 2142
|Posted on Friday, November 07, 2014 - 10:36 am: || |
I have also known Formers who have struggled with the "pendulum swing" and being able to adopt a responsible stance towards alcohol consumption.
It is our responsibility as their brothers and sisters in Christ to step forward and speak up. I think we are afraid of sounding like legalists or being perceived as infringing on someone's hard won liberties. But people don't always seem themselves accurately, they may need those who are close to them and care about them to provide necessary, but not always comfortable, feedback.
And that responsibility may include setting aside our own liberties (either situationally or completely) for the benefit of others. This is a mindset that Paul spoke about repeatedly.
Post Number: 5
|Posted on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 10:35 am: || |
Considering that grape juice naturally ferments and this preserves the wine, was a good thing and as Paul recommended to Timothy, was an aid in digestion.
Today, we may think nothing about popping pills which are probiotics or eating yogurt or sour kraut or other fermented food which gives us an aid in digestion which keeps us working right inside.
If a person has trouble with drinking and loses control of it, it is better to leave it alone.
If a person spends on liquor over other needful things, they have their priorities out of order, not that this is a salvation issue, but when you put Christ first, things fall in order without being a legalist.