| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2144 Registered: 7-2004  |
With the announcement of actually running for the Presidency, it has made me think a little more about the /b{real} questions I would have. Not just some general philosophical question about whether I could vote for an SDA. I responded with some of these on a FB thread, but I'd be interested in discussing (somewhere it won't disappear in a day or two) what aspects of SDA theology and practice might impact how a person would lead a nation: The SDA church is one of the most pacifistic "major" churches, encouraging members that the most acceptable form of military service is as a Conscientious Objector. How will this influence his decision on military readiness and/or his willingness to use the military? Will his views on the Sabbath impact budget decisions that would involve government employees doing unnecessary work on the Sabbath? How could he personally not justify including this in his decisions when the commandment includes not just one's self, but those working for you? Will his views on end time events result in changes in diplomatic relationships with the Vatican? Will the fact that SDAs seem to find as much, or more, in common with Muslim as they do with Christians impact our foreign policies and allies? Will the fact that SDAs believe that their personal and corporate persecution will come from Christians (rather than other religions or atheists) impact our policies and alliances? Will we be more likely to side with a Muslim faction than a Catholic one? The SDA church is routinely supportive of ACLU actions on civil and religious liberties that are generally considered part of the "liberal agenda", does he support his church's actions in this regard and would he use his executive powers to stand alongside these political efforts of his church? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3093 Registered: 5-2007  |
These are good questions. If they were submitted to Ben Carson it would be interesting to hear his own response. Fearless Phil | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2145 Registered: 7-2004 |
My experience with SDAs answering questions about their beliefs is that they are not completely forthcoming about them. One good friend describes it as "nailing Jello to the wall." I have never met Dr. Carson personally, and he could be very different about answering questions regarding his beliefs. But in the back of my mind I must always consider that the SDA church continues to believe and practice that the ends justify the means and therefore lying to non-Adventist is OK if it helps to overcome their prejudices towards SDAism. So it takes more than just a carefully worded statement to convince me. The statement needs to convince me through specifics or personal examples. Because of the SDA church's stance and practice regarding the acceptability of deception, I place the burden of proof on SDAs. I place their statements under a higher level of scrutiny. That can be seen as a double standard, but I believe it is a standard that has been earned by their Church and the SDAs that have gone before them. But I am going to look for the opportunity to submit these questions to him directly. And I would like to hear what questions others here have. I think Formers have a unique insight on how the religious beliefs of an SDA might impact their political policies and decisions. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 363 Registered: 4-2014 |
Ric, You don't know the half of the "acceptability of deception" of Adventists. The appropriate burden of proof on Adventists is that they must overcome an almost insurmountable presumption they they are lying, and do it beyond a reasonable doubt before anything they say can be believed. It isn't a double standard either, not when they have worked so hard and so diligently to richly deserve having a higher standard of scrutiny applied to them. That is not a "double standard." That is just a "standard" that has been earned. Historically, all of their doctrines are founded on multi-level, inter-linking lies. Although I don't think I have persuaded very many people of the validity of my theory, I believe this institutional lying definitely started with William Miller. Throughout SDA history, there have been made many deliberate command decisions to withhold the full truth from Adventist membership. As I am researching the Great Controversy for my book, the level of deceit in just that one book is truly awe-inspiring. Miller taught his disciples well: He had the Bible Commentaries and he knew that the commentaries UNANIMOUSLY held that Daniel 8:14 was fulfilled during the reign of Antioch Epiphanes. He did not disclose this to the Millerites, who were giving away their possessions and shutting down their businesses. That was callous and intentional deception that directly led to great harm. So no, Adventists don't deserve a "double standard." They deserve the standard of scrutiny they have earned. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2146 Registered: 7-2004 |
I submitted the questions, with slightly modified wording, to the email address at his campaign organization. If I receive any responses, I will post them here. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1613 Registered: 2-2011  |
Yes~ I agree that Ben Carson, deserves the "standard of scrutiny" that he he has earned, being a seventh day-adventist! However, saying this, I think Ben Carson, has "0" chances of even making it to the Presidential debates(should he even by some chance make it this far). He has made so many public statements that are ridiculous, he will say something absurd before the primaries and he will be gone! I, also think, he has revealed a pretty scurrilous form of intolerance for other people who do not accept his religious views. Being a "brilliant" successful neurosurgeon, does not translate into being a "brilliant" anything else! IMO~ he should have stayed in medicine if he wanted to help others. Now he is just feeding his ego! A 'quote' from, Booker T. Washington, Republican. "Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity." ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14969 Registered: 12-2003  |
You go, Rick! I'm eager to hear if you hear back... Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2153 Registered: 7-2004 |
Let me be clear, particularly since this is a public forum. The only time that I have an increased skepticism about the veracity of an SDAs statements is when those statements regard the teachings and practices of their church. While I'm sure people could recite a list of dishonest SDAs they known, I believe that would be a small minority. The vast majority of SDAs I know are honest, moral people who can be trusted far more than the average person you meet (with the exception of things relating to their church, where even the most upright will go along with the lies built into the evangelism seminars). The morality of SDAs is one of the appealing elements of the religion. So my comment is not about the moral character of SDAs. It is completely about the unspoken principle within SDAism that when converting those in the world to SDAism, the ends justify the means. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8171 Registered: 9-2006  |
Can an Adventist have discernment? 1: the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure : skill in discerning 2: an act of perceiving or discerning something Example if discernment: His lack of discernment led to his disastrous choice of business partners. (Webster) This question has plagued me for some time, can an Adventist have discernment? In the example given above there is intended a worldly meaning for the word, but the meaning goes much deeper than Websters example. Paul, in Acts:16:16-18 discerns the spirit of the damsel that has a spirit of divination. So the question is, can someone so far off with the Bible be trusted to have the discernment that they need to govern a country? | ||
| Rocky Registered user Username: Rocky Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2012 |
River, I am wondering how this might relate to proverbs 21:1. "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turns it wherever he will".-- seems like the choice in an election is always between a greater and a lesser evil- the Lord was able to turn the hearts of wicked and good leaders alike in scripture in order to fulfill His will- I want to continue to discern Gods will for me as I make personal choices but seems like the outcome is still directed by Him and used for His purposes..I am not sure how much discernment any leader has!.....I wonder, how do others see this? . | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2014 |
In the late 70's I heard Dr. Carson speak at the Soquel campmeeting. I have been totally smitten by him ever since. He has an amazing life story and truthfully in my opinion is one of only a few in the political arena who makes two bits worth of sense about most things. I know he does those surgeries on saturdays so he's not strict SDA. Personally before I vote for any person I thoroughly research each candate and vote the one who comes closest to how i think it should be. I do the same with the proposistions | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2012 |
Nixon was a Quaker Kennedy was Catholic Obama was at least educated by Islamists Mitt Romney is Mormon I am not sure that faith totally defines the individual. If it does then all of us were at one time monsters. Ben Carson is very outspoken. He has said a lot of things that in their honesty have offended one segment or another of society. That said I have not heard him say anything remotely "Adventist". Maybe I missed something? I do believe that the belief system of Adventism is a huge problem in the world. I also believe the vast majority of SDA's are victims not part of creating the delusion. Now whether the SDA church will attempt to use him is another question. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2154 Registered: 7-2004 |
And we have seen how the Islamic influences on Obama have impacted his decisions and perhaps even his foreign policies. We don't know how Romney's faith might have impacted his political decisions, he was never elected. I'm not saying that the church a person belongs to defines the person, I'm asking how might the beliefs a person holds might impact their decisions in office. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14972 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Rick. One's worldview colors their entire perception of reality. Moreover, a worldview born out of deception and wrong understandings of God and man lead one to be more or less vulnerable to other forms of deception and manipulation. We just happen to know more intimately the SDA skew... Colleen | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 339 Registered: 4-2005 |
he does have he advantage (to me at least) that he was not educated in Adventisi schools--nor has he worked in the SDA system to my knowledge. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14978 Registered: 12-2003 |
True, Benevento. The problem is, though, that because he is Adventist but without all the intensive "programming", he is vulnerable to deception in a real way. He may rationalize that doing brain surgery on Sabbath, for example, is following Jesus' example of "doing good" on the Sabbath. Etc. But let's say he doesn't really "buy" all the SDA dogma. He's still compromised with it. Whether one compromises consciously or unconsciously with evil, one is vulnerable. His worldview is Adventist. I've no idea how this might play out, nor how he might react if president. I just know how deeply Adventism affects an individual's worldview, and I know a bit (by no means fully) how embedded Adventism is in world power and finance. It's just interesting to watch this, and I have lots of questions and concerns. I'm not making predictions, but I do like Rick's questions. Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 684 Registered: 5-2009  |
I think I would go into a deep depression if LAM endorsed (in any way) Ben Carson. It would undermine everything that the ministry has done the past 15 years... Praying I don't ever see that day... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14980 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with you, Delina. I'd go right into that depression with you ;)! No, we're not heading close to that road... Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2162 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess we won't get to hear Dr. Carson's response, unless someone else has a better idea of how to get questions more directly to him. His volunteers think that his belief shapes a major role in who he is and how he would govern. And that is what concern me, I want to understand what impacts those might have. But his candidacy provides a great opportunity for me to talk to people about SDA beliefs within the context of why I have concern about him. It could be a great chance to educate some of my friends within the context of a topic that has interest to them. | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 72 Registered: 1-2010  |
He is on the record as being anti 2A, pro gun control. In today's political climate he does not have a chance of being elected. |
