Post Number: 90
|Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2014 - 2:18 am: || |
My husband’s 87 year old mother went to be with the Lord Dec 18. She was raised SDA but left the religion several years ago and became a born again Christian. She was the family Matriarch & devout prayer warrior. Since her passing, the door of communication has opened between me and some deeply devout SDA relatives. I am somewhat familiar with SDA doctrine having spent a couple years reading & conversing with folks on this forum. However, I am not clear as to SDA theology in regard to their perspective on what happens to people who die. I do understand SDAism does not believe human’s have a spirit. Somewhere I thought I read that they believe deceased folks become only a memory in God’s mind. Could someone enlighten me before I attempt to converse with SDA relatives.
Post Number: 1798
|Posted on Monday, December 22, 2014 - 8:40 am: || |
That is essentially correct. SDAs believe that a living person is body plus breath (the argument goes that the Hebrew and Greek words usually translated as "spirit" really mean "breath"). So, there is no immaterial part of a person that is separated from the body at death. According to Adventist theology, when a person dies, their breath leaves them, their body decays, and they are basically no more until the resurrection.
The belief above is sometimes referred to by non-Adventists as "soul-sleep" but this is not really correct as SDAs do not believe you have a soul, period, asleep or otherwise. They do believe that death is like a sleep in that at the moment of death you become unconscious, with your next conscious moment coming at the resurrection, like waking up from a long, deep sleep.
The key text for SDAs is Ecclesiastes 9:5. It is usually only partially quoted (and out of its context) as "The dead know nothing".
So it would be correct to say that since the body has returned to dust, and there is no spirit, then the person can be said to only exist in God's memory. While SDAs would not say it quite this way, God basically recreates individuals at the resurrection because they don't actually exist anywhere between death and resurrection. This varies from orthodox Christianity that teaches that those who have died in Christ are with the Lord and come with Him when returns to this earth to raise up their bodies and reunite spirit with glorified body.
Post Number: 89
|Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2014 - 6:46 pm: || |
I was taught that at creation when God said man became I living spirit upon His breathing into Afams body made from the dust that the human bodu and spirit are now synomins. At our death our breath , aka spitit goes back to the neitherland of God and our physical bodies just cease to exist. And, then to further confuse the already confused I was taught that the text that proclaims all things will be made new is in refetence to the resurrection. God is then going to RECREATE us. We will not have eternal life like is Bibically taught but we will be likecarbon copies or nowadays one of those new fangled three d copie machines. How I was taught was not Bibical at all and SDA funerals are fraught with anxiety because the loved ones just do not have the assurance of salvation. It's giving me a headache trying to make sense of how 8 was taught.
Post Number: 1637
|Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2014 - 10:58 pm: || |
"sda" hope is NO hope at all!
Basically they teach that when you die, you die like a dog~
Post Number: 91
|Posted on Friday, December 26, 2014 - 1:07 am: || |
That is correct. We were taught we as humans made in the image of God have no more advantage over dogs or any other animals.
Post Number: 2170
|Posted on Friday, December 26, 2014 - 3:51 pm: || |
This makes me wonder,
Does a theology that makes us so similar to dogs and other animals contribute towards vegetarian leanings?
Does that same theology make aborting a baby, or euthanizing a sick patient, highly similar to euthanizing a sick pet?
Post Number: 1638
|Posted on Friday, December 26, 2014 - 8:42 pm: || |
The sda "theology" of what happens after death of the body, reminds
me of Darwin's theory of evolution.
Post Number: 17
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 11:12 am: || |
I ll like you to be kind to your Christian brothers who hold differing views. The view by sda is not only unique to them. Other non sda able Christian theologians have said that. I have a few questions to ask those who disagree with sda belief so I understand. I must say I do agree with much of sda belief except the concept if the IJ and remnant as earlier tsught( it's been revised so often do not know clearly the official stance but from the common person, it means all others are lost and must become sda),
Here are my questions: kindly answer them with numbering for ease of follow up.
1. What actually happens at death? What will happen to me when I die in The Lord. What happens to the wicked who die at death. Where do they go?
2. What does the resurrection mean, why will there be one? Is it important for resurrection to take place?
3, Are we humans essentially immortal? As in does our thought process live on forever and ever?
4. If God will punish the wicked for billions and billions of years for less than a hundred years of wicked life, why should I believe in him? It goes against basic human judgement. Would you say that is justice? To know that your wicked5 son has been burning for some million of years and he has just began burning. Why would anybody believe in a God like that? And he is said to be " love"?
Post Number: 2172
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 1:17 pm: || |
In response to #1
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Notice the verb, it isn't they will have eternal life. Nor is this a promise of eventually having eternal life.
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Again, Jesus makes clear that those who believe in Him will live forever, and that this eternal life is different than anything available to Israel in the time of Moses.
Phil 1:Yes, and I will rejoice, 19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, 20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.
The most straightforward reading of this passage is that Paul believed that when he died he would be with Christ.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
I don't believe this simply means that we were condemned to a future death because of our sin, but that we were truly dead, in that we did not have a living spirit. That is why verse 5 mentions God making us alive. There is more to our life than our physical body. We also have a living spirit that is more than mere breath (there are many verses where breath is clearly insufficient to describe what the Bible calls our spirit). What God made alive when we became believers, remains alive even when our bodies cease to function. The extent of our experience as spirit is uncertain, we are given only a few details in Scripture. But we are given enough that we can believe that the promises of never dying are true.
The domain of the wicked between death and the lake of fire in Revelation isn't plainly articulated in Scripture.
Post Number: 2173
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 1:24 pm: || |
#3 I believe that you are substituting "thought processes" for spirit and I don't believe that is a valid substitution.
I don't know that humans are essentially immortal, nor do I believe that any of these teaching require humans to be immortal beings.
Post Number: 2174
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 2:03 pm: || |
#4 I believe that this question approaches the doctrine from the wrong perspective. But it is how we were taught to defend the doctrine as SDAs. Do you believe that all of your doctrines should be based on Scripture alone?
But if you want to consider philosophical questions, which is the more "loving" punishment, the death penalty or life in prison?
Could it also be that God chose eternal punishment over annihilation because He places a higher value on the life of His creation than you do? That what you see as more loving involves a very different set of values?
Could it be that we are simply not qualified to judge to God? (Rom 9:20, Job 38 - 41)
Or perhaps we should take this a completely different direction, why would a truly loving God punish anyone in even the slightest amount simply for rejecting His Son? Why would a loving God bring them back to life and torture them even for a few seconds in a lake of fire when they were basically "good" people whose only major crime was rejecting God?
Doesn't your line of reasoning ultimately require you to become either a universalist, where God will save everyone, or to reject all notions of a judgment of the wicked?
I held on to this doctrine longer than any other SDA teaching. I searched long and hard for loopholes in Scripture where I could accept Scripture at face value and not have to face the very distinct possibility of an eternal, conscious punishment of the wicked.
In the end, I could not escape a few basic verses.
Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I can't provide any reasonable explanation as to why the word "eternal" should have a different meaning in front of punishment than it does in front of life.
This "eternal punishment" takes place in a specific place mentioned a few verses earlier.
Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That lake of fire is described in detail in Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
According to what this passage says, how long will Satan's torment be in the lake of fire? The straightforward reading of this passage says to me that this is an active torment, going on daily, forever. And this is the same place where the wicked will be sent for "eternal punishment" according to Jesus.
Post Number: 400
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 5:06 pm: || |
The First, Second and Third-century Christians CLEARLY believed that they were immortal, and lived completely consistent with that belief.
Hundreds of Thousands of them underwent the most mind-boggling, horrific and grizzly tortures and executions the world has ever seen, and their last dying words were virtually unanimous:
"Oh well, tomorrow is going to be a better day."
Post Number: 2175
|Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 6:21 pm: || |
There is a difference between believers being immortal, which I believe that I directly addressed in response to question 1. What I hesitated to say in question 2 was that ALL humans are innately immortal. I do not believe that I can support that claim from Scripture.
Hopefully that resolves any confusion.
Post Number: 401
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 8:34 am: || |
No worries. I don't think all humans are immortal either.
Post Number: 31
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 10:51 am: || |
I feel like this question needs to be answered: What is death?
Post Number: 2176
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 11:18 am: || |
If anyone chooses to answer that, I will encourage you to answer from Scripture ALONE and not from speculation and guesses built upon an interpretation of a verse.
Post Number: 1805
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 3:32 pm: || |
I think the question could be more specific since the Bible uses the term death (or near equivalents) for several different things: Physical Death, Spiritual Death, and Eternal Death (or the Second Death). In addition, the Bible talks about being dead to the Law and being dead to sin.
So, if you really want to answer this question biblically, you almost need to study each type of death described in the Bible, understand what the Bible teaches about each, and then understand what they all have in common. Then you would have the big picture view of how the Bible views death.
By the way, all five types of deaths mentioned above do have a single common thread. To put it another way, the Bible does use the term in a consistent way.
Post Number: 1806
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 3:44 pm: || |
Just something to consider: I would argue that Adventism's primary case for non-existence at death is built on the first half of verse (Ecc. 9:5a). It's built on half a text without regard for it's meaning and context within the larger passage it exists in, the book it exists in, or the literary genera. In terms of hermeneutics, it's an extremely weak case. I've written more about that here: http://bereanmind.blogspot.com/2010/09/state-of-dead-bible-study-part-v.html
So why are SDAs stuck with such a weak biblical case, why do they keep defending it, and what forced them to it in the first place? I believe the primary motivator for Adventism claiming this belief as one of the bedrocks of the religion is directly related to the doctrine of the 1844 Investigative Judgment. If you believe in an investigative judgement of works that has been going on since 1844 and that determines who is safe to save, then you cannot embrace the biblical teaching that "to be absent from the body [is] to be at home with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8). If you believe in the Investigative Judgement, then believers who have died cannot be "at home with the Lord". They must be non-existent awaiting judgment.
Post Number: 402
|Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2014 - 4:52 pm: || |
The entire Adventist world view was founded on proof-texting. There is no Adventist doctrine that is faithful to the context of any of the texts they use.
Since the IJ is an ill-fated proof-texted response to the proof-texted 1844 disaster; it only stands to reason that they have to have a proof-texted non-Biblical, un-Christian view of the State of the Dead.
Finally, if proof-texting was obviously lacking in a more than usual manner, then Ellen usually supplied some un-Biblical nonsense to to support it.
My oh my.
Believe it or not, an Adventist over at CARM yesterday attempted to prooftext with Ephesians 4:13 - a verse that ends with either a colon or comma in every translation I could find! It was clearly among a long string of interconnected verses meant to be read together as one paragraph. ALL of the verses within that paragraph ended in either commas or colons. Three before verse 13 and three after verse 13, none of which make the slightest sense on their own.
(Message edited by Resjudicata on December 28, 2014)
Post Number: 18
|Posted on Monday, December 29, 2014 - 12:42 am: || |
Focus people focus! I don't subscribe to IJ because when I read Hebrews on my own I could not defend it without summoning your truly. Sr white to me is a puzzle and I follow the biblical instruction, " despise not prophesyings, prove all things, hold fast to that which is good" Paul knew what he was saying. He didn't say throw out everything. That's where I stand. Now the case being presented here is to make the doctrine of sleep in death look like it's such a doctrine of the devil blablabla. I ask specific questions to see. The alternate version and am not get much help. Basically what am getting is ...we'll it's not very clear and we are going to understand better in heaven. To a degree I agree. But both sides have some merit. Iasked question no 2 and have not seen an answer to that. Why a resurrection? The sedducees did not believe in one. But Paul believed in it. Here is the text in full. 1 Corinthians 15:12 onwards
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead , how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead ? But if there be no resurrection of the dead , then is Christ not risen : And if Christ be not risen , then is our preaching vain , and your faith is also vain . Yea , and we are found false witnesses of God ; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ : whom he raised not up , if so be that the dead rise not . For if the dead rise not , then is not Christ raised : And if Christ be not raised , your faith is vain ; ye are yet in your sins . Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished . If in this life only we have hope in Christ , we are of all men most miserable .
But now is Christ risen from the dead , and become the firstfruits of them that slept . For since by man came death , by man came also the resurrection of the dead . For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . But every man in his own order : Christ the firstfruits ; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming . Then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God , even the Father ; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power . For he must reign , till he hath put all enemies under his feet . The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death . For he hath put all things under his feet . But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted , which did put all things under him . And when all things shall be subdued unto him , then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him , that God may be all in all . Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead , if the dead rise not at all ? why are they then baptized for the dead ? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour ? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord , I die daily. . If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus , what advantageth it me , if the dead rise not ? let us eat and drink ; for to morrow we die . Be not deceived : evil communications corrupt good manners . Awake to righteousness , and sin not ; for some have not the knowledge of God : I speak this to your shame .
But some man will say , How are the dead raised up ? and with what body do they come ? Thou fool , that which thou sowest is not quickened , except it die : And that which thou sowest , thou sowest not that body that shall be , but bare grain , it may chance of wheat , or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body . All flesh is not the same flesh : but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes , and another of birds . There are also celestial bodies , and bodies terrestrial : but the glory of the celestial is one , and the glory of the terrestrial is another . There is one glory of the sun , and another glory of the moon , and another glory of the stars : for one star differeth from another star in glory . So also is the resurrection of the dead . It is sown in corruption ; it is raised in incorruption : It is sown in dishonour ; it is raised in glory : it is sown in weakness ; it is raised in power : It is sown a natural body ; it is raised a spiritual body . There is a natural body , and there is a spiritual body . And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul ; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit . Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual , but that which is natural ; and afterward that which is spiritual . The first man is of the earth , earthy : the second man is the Lord from heaven . As is the earthy , such are they also that are earthy : and as is the heavenly , such are they also that are heavenly . And as we have borne the image of the earthy , we shall also bear the image of the heavenly . Now this I say , brethren , that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption .
Behold , I shew you a mystery ; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye , at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed . For this corruptible must put on incorruption , and this mortal must put on immortality . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption , and this mortal shall have put on immortality , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory . O death , where is thy sting ? O grave , where is thy victory ? The sting of death is sin ; and the strength of sin is the law . But thanks be to God , which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ .
Soon here Paul speaks of a resurrection happening at the coming of Christ and translation occurring them. The the cry shall be made of victory over death and the grave. Those that sleep in the grave shall awake and be caught up together with The Lord. To me these do not seem to have been singing and praising God. They were asleep. How that happens, how he imparts life to them and all, am not sure.
As to what death is here is another text...
After talking about how we should rem God whist young, Solomon says, ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
That is the definition of death.
Martha cryingtoJesus said this," Then said Martha unto Jesus , Lord , if thou hadst been here , my brother had not died . But I know , that even now , whatsoever thou wilt ask of God , God will give it thee . Jesus saith unto her , Thy brother shall rise again . Martha saith unto him , I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day . Jesus said unto her , I am the resurrection , and the life : he that believeth in me , though he were dead , yet shall he live :
Are you to say those who held to Martha's teaching where damnable heretics? I can't agree with that view. To me once ibelieve in Christ, am with The Lord. I dont worry about tomorrow but place all my cares on Him. If I did today, I know I shall have a better resurrection. Indeed that's what some martyr said as they were being burned as heretics. And in Hebrews speaks of those who died in faith having not obtained the reward. If they were in heaven, what In the world is Paul talking about? What better reward than in heaven. He would have said, " these having died are now rejoicing in heaven having obtained the reward. Here is is Hebrews 11:39
And these all , having obtained a good report through faith , received not the promise : God having provided some better thing for us , that they without us should not be made perfect .
These who died in faith, were not to go before the others,us who live now.they have not yet obtained the reward,heaven. No. Not yet. Well...generally,except for those Jesus is said to have resurrected with and Enoch moses and Elijah. The rest Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 onwards
But I would not have you to be ignorant , brethren , concerning them which are asleep , that ye sorrow not , even as others which have no hope . For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord , that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first : Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here Paul is encouraging those that weep like they shall never see their loved ones. He says the shall be raised up and those who are alive shall be caught up with them AND THEN shall we ever be with The Lord.
Paul could have easily said " don't weep these are in a better place etc and that would have been comfort enough. But no he didn't. He believed in a resurrection.
What about Lazarus and those who we're resurrected.what shll we say? They went to heaven andJesus summoned them back from there,a place of bliss and joy and they said nothing??? No even a complaint? These are issues I find which makes my case rest with death as asleep and Jesus coming to wake those who have died in himat his coming. Howhaveyouresolved these issues?
Kindly respond here as going to another site may derail me as my issues are specific and I rather would like conversation.