Post Number: 19
|Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 6:51 pm: || |
Jesus, and His parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus
Jesus actually does say that the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is indeed a parable, for it comes right on the heels of Luke 15, where at the end of that chapter, there is the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Chapter divisions were not a part of the original writings of the New Testament, but were added centuries later--perhaps after the invention of Gutenberg's press. So, Luke 16, according to correct exegetical methods of bringing meaning FROM scripture (in opposition to Isogesis, which is imposing bias ON scripture), is a direct uninterrupted continuation of Jesus's words at the end of Luke 15. There is no getting around that. The Rich Man & Lazarus is as much a parable as is the parable of the Prodigal Son. For Jesus first word in Luke 16 is "And,....." Indicating He was still giving illustrations and parables of teachings.
What was the teaching in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus? It was not at all about hell or what it is. It was instead, simply this: Don't be so concerned with accumulating material things and pleasures, otherwise, the 1st will be last and the last first.
Post Number: 1846
|Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 10:06 am: || |
RE-POSTED HERE SINCE IT LOOKS LIKE A SUB-THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED.
While not dealing directly with with subject of eternal separation from Christ, here's something I wrote awhile back about the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. We shouldn't simply dismiss the elements that Jesus chose to relate in His narrative.
I once went to see the Oscar winning film Gladiator with a SDA friend of mine. Near the beginning of the film we find out that the hero, Maximus, dreams of leaving the wars and returning to the life he loves of raising crops with his wife and son. Unfortunately, before he is able to return to the fields that he loves so much, his wife and son are murdered and he is made a gladiator slave. In the final scene, as Maximus lays dying in the Coliseum, we see an image of him walking through a field of ripe grain with his wife and son before him in the sunlight……fade to black………
I was very impressed with Ridley Scott’s film which later won best picture. On the way out of the theater I remarked to my SDA friend how much I enjoyed the movie. His comment to me was, “I liked it right up until the point where it got into all that spiritualism. I couldn’t recommend it because of the spiritualism.” I was stunned. A well crafted film that managed to combine epic story-telling, action, and breath taking cinematography had just been dismissed out of hand because of one beautifully artistic scene near the end. The entire movie was worthless because it promoted “spiritualism”.
Had my friend said he disagreed with the idea that a polytheistic Roman who died apart from Christ would be in Heaven, then I could have heartily agreed with him. But that wasn’t why my friend was so offended. He was offended by the portrayal of conscious existence at death. I have run into this same attitude with close family members as well. Any art that so much as hints at conscious existence at death is written off as being either “spiritualism”, or more often, “satanic”.
Perhaps I should not be surprised by this as I grew up believing that the idea of conscious existence at death was the first lie Satan ever told. So therefore any teacher, preacher, movie, song, TV show, or book that suggested a conscious existence at death must be satanic in so far as they were promoting Satan’s lie. But if conscious existence at death is Satan’s lie and those who teach it are false teachers, what does that say about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Jesus tells a very interesting story in Luke, chapter 16.
Luke 16:19-31 (NASB)
19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw* Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said*, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Now I have heard some try to dismiss this passage by saying, “Well, it’s only a parable and the main point isn’t the state of the dead.” This may very well only be a parable, but if it is, then it is the only recorded parable of Jesus where he uses a name for one of the characters. Because of this, many commentators believe that Jesus is recounting actual events involving people some in the crowd would have known. However, I’m fine with assuming that this is a parable. I also agree completely that the main point isn’t the state of the dead.
However, neither of those points allows us to dismiss the significance of the illustration Jesus is using here. Assuming this is a parable, then we can say that Jesus’ parables ALWAYS made use of something TRUE from life to illustrate an even greater spiritual TRUTH. It just doesn’t work to say that Jesus was illustrating a truth by using a falsehood. Can you imagine Jesus saying, “You know that point I was making? Well, it was a true point, but the way I went about making it was absolutely false. In fact, I was using an illustration that is a satanic lie to make my point. My illustration is dangerous spiritualism, but the point is still valid.”? Why would Jesus say something that was completely false and thereby mislead generations of Christians? Why would he wait until the 1840s to raise up a group to correct the misconception he started over 1800 year’s before? That’s a long time to leave Christians confused and misled by a satanic illustration.
It almost feels like blasphemy to write the paragraph I did above, and yet that’s essentially what those who try to explain away this passage are saying when you peel away all their layers of double talk. We’re talking about God in the flesh. We’re talking about the greatest teacher, preacher, and prophet to ever walk among us. This is the illustration He chose and the people in His illustration are conscious and communicative at death. If we accuse other teachers and preachers of spiritualism and promoting the lies of Satan when they say such things, should we accuse Jesus of the same thing? Well, I guess one might if they were consistent, but it would be a grave mistake.
This isn’t “spiritualism”. It reflects a spiritual reality that Christ knew to be true and the rest of the Bible confirms. Although I would not want to make a passage like this the primary source of my doctrine, Jesus’ illustration fits perfectly with the rest of His teaching and the didactic teaching of His apostles so I can accept this story as representing spiritual reality. I don’t need or want to explain it away and dismiss it.
I believe we have been guilty of falsely accusing some of our Christian brothers and sisters of spiritualism for preaching and teaching things that the Bible itself preaches and teaches. I know I have to personally repent of such accusations that I have made. My accusations and judgments were made out of my own ignorance, but I bear the responsibility for that ignorance.
Now that I know what the Bible teaches on this subject, I can now watch films that depict a conscious existence at death without becoming angry and agitated. I may not agree with every theological implication in the way it is presented, but I can at least enjoy the story for its artistic merit without fearing a satanic deception. But much more importantly, now that I know what the bible teaches on this subject I am now much more comfortable fellowshipping with Christians who believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Based upon much prayer and Bible study, I now believe that at death I will be consciously with the Lord awaiting the resurrection of my perfect imperishable body. I don’t know exactly this means or what it will be like, but perhaps it will be just a little like Ridley Scott’s vision of walking through a beautiful field of ripened grain, surrounded by sunlight and loved ones.
Post Number: 45
|Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 6:33 pm: || |
Chris, I. too, certainly long with perfect desire for Heaven & that New Earth.
I don't know whether there is soul sleep or not. Jesus seemed to teach it, yet we see Moses appearing with Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses had died and was buried, and yet here he was.
But of course, as you know from the Soul Sleep thread, I do definitely have a difficult time believing that a all loving, compassionate and perfect God would have a place of eternal torment in everlasting flames.
It is in-congruent with what has been revealed about God.
January 30, 2016 by Benjamin L. Corey.....
"If Hell Is Real, Why Did God Wait So Darn Long To Warn Us About It?
"If hell– a place of eternal conscious torment– is real, why did God wait so darn long to warn us about it?
"Because you see, hell is doesn’t exist in the Old Testament. And if hell were real, I’d expect it to play a much more prominent role in Scripture than it does.
"When we see the creation narrative of Genesis, God does in fact warn Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But the consequence he warns them of? Death.
"Not eternal torture in hell, but plain ole death. If hell were the natural consequence for sin, I am left to wonder why God wasn’t clear right from the beginning."
Post Number: 2192
|Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 7:26 pm: || |
Hi Walt! Have you ever done a study on Sheol or have you ever heard of it? That might help you with the issue with soul sleep (but probably not eternal hell).
Post Number: 90
|Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 9:45 pm: || |
Hmm ... Really? So now we are to take seriously the opinions of theologians like Benjamin Corey that have departed from the sound exegesis of Scripture in favor of "progressive Christianity"? (progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/)