Post Number: 15453
|Posted on Friday, November 11, 2016 - 10:14 am: || |
I just had a phone call from a long-time forum-lurker from Michigan, and talking to him reminded me that the conversations we have here are read by many people who never post. I know social media has developed many venues for discussion besides this forum, but this continues to be a place where Adventism can be discussed in a careful and understanding environment that is grounded on God's word and not on simply personal experience.
All to say, I have a question. I'd love to get your reactions to it!
What, in your opinion, are the five worst problems with Adventism? Your answers may be theological or practical. Explain your answers. (There...does that sound sufficiently like a classroom assignment?!)
I'm eager to read your reactions!
Post Number: 71
|Posted on Friday, November 11, 2016 - 10:21 pm: || |
Excellent question, Colleen!
Just to further stimulate the conversation, here's a link to a blog article about SDAism on my school's website (The Master's Seminary), written by our very own professor of church history, Nathan Busenitz. Briefly, he addresses three main problem areas with Seventh-Day Adventism: an incomplete atonement, the status of EGW's writings, and the sabbath. I read the article earlier this year and sent him an email with some observations as a Former. Later, I was able to interact with him a bit more because I had the privilege of taking his class.
Here's the link: http://www.tms.edu/preachersandpreaching/evaluating-seventh-day-adventism/
In short, it can sometimes be hard to quickly summarize what is "wrong" with Seventh-Day Adventism to evangelicals who may be looking for quick and simple answers. For that matter, it can be hard to convince other Adventists (especially progressive Adventists) that SDAism is unbiblical. I believe this is primarily because many people within the church simply deny that Adventism still holds to some of its more blatant historic heresies. I distinctly remember when I had decided to decline to lead worship for a Spanish SDA church in my local Los Angeles area. I called the pastor and we ended up discussing my issues wtih Adventism. He kept nuancing the issues and basically denying that he, as an SDA, takes x doctrine that seriously, or that y doctrine really is such a big issue.
I really like the way I heard you once put it, Colleen. The root of Adventism is blatantly Arian and anti-gospel. And that root infects the whole tree, even the ostensibly progressive or evangelical branch.
Post Number: 2016
|Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2016 - 12:18 pm: || |
It is My Opinion~~~
Before you can begin to dismantle the ..."five worst problems with Adventism ..."
you must be able to convince the person you are talking to that....Wait for IT !
Ellen G. White is a false prophet !
This is a "Miracle" in and of itself !
If this is not done it is virtually impossible to move forward in Scripture.
It is the working of the Holy Spirit to remove the obstacles in the mind and heart.
Post Number: 224
|Posted on Monday, November 14, 2016 - 6:04 am: || |
I whole heartedly agree with Nathan Busenitz.
An incomplete atonement(IJ), the status of EGW's writings, the Sabbath. But I would add Soul Sleep and Ellen G White's writings and status.
Yes, I know he mentioned EGW but I think she is such a problem she should be counted twice!
Post Number: 15454
|Posted on Monday, November 14, 2016 - 12:33 pm: || |
Kaspars, I read Nathan Busenitz's description of Adventism when it appeared as his blog post a year or two ago. It's very good...especially from a "never been". Nevertheless, I agree with the comments here.
I am so convinced that Adventism is almost impossible to truly disclose to someone who's never been one precisely because Adventists deny what it teaches. As long as members say they "don't believe this or that", Christians tend to dismiss those things as "archaic" and no longer issues.
Stephen, I agree with you. The fact of Ellen White is far worse than "Ooops...they did have a prophet..." She actually IS part of their "scripture", although they don't call her that. She is the one who determines their hermeneutic, however. Her great controversy worldview determines how every Adventist understands reality.
Within that worldview, their view of the nature of man is the thing that blinds them to spiritual death, depravity, the nature of Christ, the nature of sin, and the nature of salvation. It turns everything a "quarter of a degree off", and the end result is that their understanding of the atonement, salvation, and why these things are even necessary are completely wrong.
Yes, I still believe that the Arian, anti-Trinitarian, anti-gospel root of Adventism still infects every single branch of the Adventist tree. They've learned to play with words to hide that fact, but when push comes to shove, the most conservative to the most progressive Adventists disbelieve Scripture's inerrancy, the nature of man and what happens at death and the judgment, the "requirements" for salvation, and how sins are ultimately eradicated. Significantly, Adventists do not believe that Jesus Himself does the actual eradication of sin by taking God's judgment for it.
Horrifyingly, they believe Satan eradicates sin ultimately by taking God's judgment for it.
(Need I mention again...Adventism, when looked at closely according to its own teachings, is occultic. If Satan is the final bearer of the sins of the saved, he is the tragic hero who removes them from us and takes God's wrath for them.)
Post Number: 72
|Posted on Monday, November 14, 2016 - 11:58 pm: || |
It strikes me that progressive SDAs playing cute with such a blasphemous (yes, occultic) doctrine is a not-so-subtle indicator that their gospel (which is no gospel) has emptied the cross of Christ of its power. If the work of Jesus on the cross really were that big a deal to progressive Seventh-Day Adventists, they would be making a bigger fuss about this crippling doctrine they no longer supposedly believe in.
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." (1 Cor. 1:17)
Post Number: 15455
|Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2016 - 4:51 pm: || |
You've hit the proverbial nail on the head, Kaspars. Progressive Adventists, at least many of those in So Cal, are "bloodless atonement" proponents. They tend toward universalism based on whatever they think Jesus did, and the cross is pretty much a non-issue now. People have to opt out of salvation rather than trust Jesus.
You are totally correct.
Post Number: 56
|Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2016 - 8:52 pm: || |
1. The Bible
2. The Clear Word Bible
5. The internet
Post Number: 41
|Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2016 - 6:17 pm: || |
1. Rejection of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Rejection of the gospel/the New Covenant (ultimately one's work of "keeping the Sabbath" saves/promoting "another gospel" that is accursed), Judaizing, the "Investigative Judgment", ignoring the implications of both the Cross and the Resurrection. This is ultimately rejection of the complete, sufficient and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Arianism and its theologically poisonous step-children/rejection of the Trinity
4. Rejection of scripture (The Clear Word, EGW put in the place of preference over both the Lord Jesus Christ as well as the Holy Spirit)
5. Error regarding the the nature of man
Ultimately, Seventh-day Adventism is institutionalized unbelief slickly re-packaged in a sugar coating of Christian-sounding words.
Post Number: 73
|Posted on Friday, November 18, 2016 - 12:42 pm: || |
Good points, 1stthings1st.
Check out this short two minute clip from Redlands SDA Pastor Tim Gillespie (who also is part of the greatly ballyhooed "One Project").
The only way I could describe that is the way you have described Seventh-Day Adventism: it is institutionalized ubelief, slickly re-packaged in a sugar coating of Christian-sounding words. The guy was given the perfect pitch for a home run and he absolutely struck out. No gospel, whatsoever.
(Message edited by lettlander on November 18, 2016)
Post Number: 2017
|Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2016 - 10:48 am: || |
I watched the video you recommended~
Yes~ I agree with you~
SDAism~ is an institutionalized unbelief...
It is also generational..as we well know!
I remember Tim Gillespie's Father, Bailey, as a young professor of religion at La Sierra
when I was a student there~
Many moons ago !!!
Post Number: 109
|Posted on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 9:14 am: || |
In my view, the five worst problems of Adventism include the following:
1. It presents a deficient understanding of who Jesus is and what He accomplished through His life, death on the cross, and resurrection, often leading to legalism and lack of genuine assurance of salvation.
2. It teaches that the atonement was not complete at the cross.
3. It encourages its adherents to follow the writings of a false prophetess (e.g. contradiction of Scriptural teaching, failed prophecies, etc.) that act as an "inspired" and infallible" extrabiblical source of authority that interprets Scripture for them.
4. It teaches a different gospel by promoting the Sabbath as the seal of God and adding Sabbath day observance as a condition for salvation.
5. It teaches that the SDA Church is the "remnant church" or one true church, and encourages its adherents to draw believers away (sometimes using less-than-honest methods) from other Christian churches.
Post Number: 1057
|Posted on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 11:28 am: || |
1. Jesus isnt enough
2. Jesus isnt enough
3.Jesus isnt enough
4. Jesus isnt enough
5. Jesus isnt enough
...Animal..."Jesus paid it all"..If Jesus isn't enough, what is?
Post Number: 2018
|Posted on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:08 pm: || |
JESUS Paid "IT" All,
All to HIM I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
HE washed "IT" white as snow !!!
Praise HIS Holy NAME !
Post Number: 52
|Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 12:20 pm: || |
1. What does it take to be saved and then stay saved (Sabbath & law are included here)
2. EGW - this makes it impossible to adjust to new light/ heavy load on conscientious believers
3. Unbiblical restrictions (coffee, tea, meat, alcohol,Friday night, Sabbath) - think of the barriers to socializing/ outreach this poses in practical life
4. Adventist remnant theology ("everyone should leave their church and join Adventism")
5. End time scenarios that lead to fear or alarmism and a wrong focus
Post Number: 15457
|Posted on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 9:38 pm: || |
Such great observations. Animal, you always have brought it down to the bottom line!
Taluur, your parenthetical observation that Adventism's proselytizing "Sometimes using less-than-honest methods" is exactly right on!! Stephen, I agree: EGW is such a problem she should be counted twice!
Grace2, YES. Those five are so true.
Post Number: 226
|Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 9:37 am: || |
Lettlander... Fascinating! I watched that short video and quickly realized that I had to listen very, very carefully. Everything Gillespie said was so logical,soothing and spiritual sounding. Such lovely words and thoughts. Who could argue against what he said? And, indeed you might agree with most of it. But you are absolutely correct... no Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Under the cultish and deceptive tutelage of Ellen White, this pastor and millions of faithful SDAs sound just like her. Beautiful and inspiring words but an empty and subtle misdirection.
When one stops and THINKS about the words, it's
Jesus plus works and Jesus is our example and proves the Law CAN be kept. Thus, to know Jesus is to know how to understand and keep the Law perfectly for salvation. Perfection of character is everything.
I've come to the conclusion that calling SDAs "wolves in sheeps clothing" is not an adequate enough description. The proper colloquialism escapes me for I believe, intentionally or not,they are even more sinister than that.
Post Number: 114
|Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 7:45 pm: || |
Think of the Gospel/Salvation as being a key ring.
Biblical Christianity has 5 rings attached, which are inseparable from the main.
1. Sola Scriptura (Salvation knowledge is only found in the 66 books of the Canon which is complete and sufficient).
2. Sola Gratia (Salvation is by grace alone)
3. Sola Fide (Salvation is through faith alone)
4. Solus Christus (Salvation is only found in Christ who is sufficient)
5. Soli Deo Gloria (All glory for the above goes to God alone).
Adventism has three main rings, which contradict the above:
1. Inspiration of Ellen White (pollutes the source of truth, undermining Sola Sriptura even if she is only viewed as the authoritative interpreter)
2. Ceremonial laws must be obeyed in order to be eligible for salvation (undermines the three middle Solas)
3. The organization is God's voice on earth and makes known the truth to its members (replaces the biblical church and Christ as its head, and undermines the Solas).
That's only three points contra Adventism, but shows that the two systems are incompatible.
(Message edited by leifl on December 01, 2016)
(Message edited by leifl on December 01, 2016)
Post Number: 15461
|Posted on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 1:17 pm: || |
Great point, Mainexile and Leifl!