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Freedom55
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Username: Freedom55

Post Number: 109
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 21, 2020 - 6:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The following is a post I made on the Spectrum website in response to an article on the SS lesson a couple of weeks back. Its certainly not a scholarly response but I get so frustrated when SDAs cling to clearly false teachings. Im sure you have addressed this topic before with better arguments, but I just had to vent! :-)

Lets be clear. In DANIEL 10, Michael is referred to as one of the chief princes (or archangels) so obviously this cant be Jesus since if he is only one of many then he is not Gods one and only Son. The name MICHAEL means who is like God?. Jesus is not like God, he is God! In Colossians 2 it says that in him (Jesus) dwells the fullness of the Godhead (Diety) bodily. In Hebrews 1 we are told that Jesus is far greater than the angels. If we say that Michael is Jesus then we fall into the same league as the JWs and the Mormons. Michael is not Jesus. He is an archangel, a messenger from God and according to Hebrews 1, angels are servants sent to care for us. Jesus came to save us. He is, in the words of Isaiah, the Wonderful Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. We do not worship an angel, we worship the Creator God. Whoever said that Jesus is Michael got it wrong and the sooner we own up to that the better.
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 809
Registered: 2-2003


Posted on Saturday, March 21, 2020 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fair points.
Leifl
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Username: Leifl

Post Number: 234
Registered: 3-2014


Posted on Saturday, March 21, 2020 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read Jude. Jesus is referred to as "Lord" by Jude in verses 4, 14, 17, 21 and 24.

Now read verse 9:

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you.

Michael rebuked Satan, not his own name or authority, but in the name and authority of the Lord Jesus.

All 6 "Lords" in Jude refer to the same person, the Lord Jesus Christ. Michael is a being of a lower order.
Leifl
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Username: Leifl

Post Number: 235
Registered: 3-2014


Posted on Sunday, March 22, 2020 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. I realize that the Son of God did not have the name "Jesus/Joshua" prior to his incarnation. He was called Jesus at the time of his incarnation because he would save his people from their sins.

However, Michael reproved the devil by the authority of the Son of God, who is the Lord. Michael is not the Lord; the text plainly says that he is an archangel.

How someone could confuse an angel with the Lord (to who is due "glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever" v. 25) is incomprehensible.

(Message edited by leifl on March 22, 2020)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 15604
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 23, 2020 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So TRUE! The teaching that Jesus and Michael are the same is buried inside Adventist doctrine, but it is still there. It's interesting that the subject elicits anger and defensiveness when we talk about it with Adventists.

There is, inside Adventist doctrine and its worldview, the stubborn clinging to the idea that Jesus is not God Almighty. They want and need Jesus to be fallible, limited, not-quite-God-in-the-flesh.

It's surprising to me that they push back so hard when confronted with the idea that angels are created beings, but Jesus is Creator, Almighty, Eternal God. The founding Arianism shows its head when this subject comes up.

Colleen
Freedom55
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Username: Freedom55

Post Number: 110
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Friday, March 27, 2020 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Leifl, for pointing that out from Jude. Makes it very clear indeed. The biggest problem I have with the SDA teaching that Michael is Jesus is that it makes Jesus out to be a lesser god when in fact he has been given a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord!
Leifl
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Username: Leifl

Post Number: 236
Registered: 3-2014


Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2020 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Freedom55: You are correct.

Jesus is not lord. He is Lord. Or, even more correctly, the LORD. Thus the writer of Hebrews quotes this as referring to Jesus:

You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.

Psalm 102 is referring to the LORD/Yahweh as creator of heaven and earth, who is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Scriptures don't record Michael as Creator, he is an exalted and powerful being to be sure, but he was created by the Son of God just like the rest of the angels.

(Message edited by leifl on March 29, 2020)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 15605
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, March 30, 2020 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interestingly, Michael the Archangel is an object of worship among New Age devotees. Doreen Virtue is a Christian who used to be a well-known New Age advisor with a YouTube channel. I heard her interviewed on a Christian podcast, and she stated that she used to worship Michael.

This Michael tradition is old, apparently, and comes from pagan roots. It's very telling to me that EGW adopted this belief.

Colleen
Leifl
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Username: Leifl

Post Number: 237
Registered: 3-2014


Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 5:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colossians 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and WORSHIP OF ANGELS, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

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