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Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 2:07 pm: |     |
OK Agapetos... I'm going to admit to something... well... it may make me look a little "unsmart". I can't believe that all these years of hearing about the "scapegoat"... I didn't even consider what a scapegoat actually was until this year!!!!!! ... "the connotation is of someone who is innocent but is unjustly given the blame others deserved." It didn't occur to me until a few months ago that by saying Satan was the scapegoat was actually implying he was innocent and being falsely accused.
Tkmommy, I also encourage you to go through Leviticus. I did a study by AMG publishing called, "Life principles through Worship in the Tabernacle" I not sure if that is the correct name. I got it at Family Christian Bookstore. It is a Baptist publication. They go through all the furniture in the sanctuary, the different offerings, the order of the Tabernacle... after I went through that study, I felt I had a much better grasp of the Tabernacle. It also correlates with Hebrews. One thing that the study brought up was the mercy seat. As an Adventist, I learned that the atonement cover was the "judgment seat" of God. The atonement cover has such beautiful meaning and symbolism that I didn't know until going through that study. It takes so much time to weed out all the Adventist weeds from my past. I had no idea how much "unlearning" I had to do.
But I have to say... it's been a lot of fun getting into God's Word and finding all the things God is wanting to show me. It's like opening up a treasure box everyday!
~vivian |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1517
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 11:52 pm: | |
Haha, Vivian, no worries! I had never realized the connotation of innocence behind "scapegoat" while I was Adventist, either. I don't think any of us did! It's a really obvious thing, but we simply couldn't see it.
It's just wonderful and humbling to hear Christ saying through the Scriptures,
"I am the scapegoat. I am the innocent one who took the blame, who took the fall. It was your sins, but I accepted them and took them away from you so that you may have life and live with Me forever."
Jesus, I don't know what to say! Thank You for taking our sins, for taking our blame, for taking our punishment. For being "cast out" and "cut off" for us, for being "driven out" and forsaken as we should have been. Just as we (in Adam) were driven out from the Garden, You as our Scapegoat were driven out of Your Father's presence because of our sins, not Yours. You were without sin, a holy offering. Thank You, Lord, for taking this "cutting off" for us. Thank You, Jesus.
Jesus, please help all our Adventist family & loved ones see this, see that You are the scapegoat, You are the one who was cut off for us. I bless Your name, Jesus. Amen. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 12:08 am: | |
P.S. Tkmommy, what I just wrote is another part of the truth about the Scapegoat.
In Isaiah 53 it says that Jesus was "cut off"... this is the punishment mentioned throughout Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy for certain sins and for breaking the covenant. For certain things the punishment was being "cut off" from the people.
For example, transgressing the commands of Sabbath or Circumcision each resulted in two punishments. 1) Death, and 2) being Cut Off.
(After "death", of course, it seems like "cut off" is moot! But there is probably an additional meaning here, since the Jews saw being "gathered to one's people" as something that happened after you died. Thus the being "cut off" would not only mean being cut off from the living covenant community, but also losing your inheritance in the afterlife -- not being gathered to your fathers when you died. But it's more than that, because "living" in the afterlife meant that God accepted you when you died. So being "cut off" ultimately meant being cast out of God's presence after you died.)
The first goat of Yom Kippur was the sacrifice that represents the first punishment -- death.
The second goat of Yom Kippur (the scapegoat) is the sacrifice that represents the second punishment -- being cut off from the presence of the covenant community, and being cut off from the presence of God.
In the same way, Adam was "cut off" by having to leave the Garden of Eden. Adam was driven out & cut off because he ate the fruit. It was part of his curse. And in the same way, Cain was "cut off" after he killed his brother Abel. He was driven away and had to leave God's presence as his punishment, as his curse. He became "accursed".
Both Adam and Cain, however, were guilty. In contrast, Christ was innocent of sin. But Galatians 3:13 says that "He became a curse for us." I believe that in a sense He became every curse for us -- that is, all the curses of transgressing the Law fell upon Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "He became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Thank You, Jesus! Thank You, my Lord! Thank You for doing this, for becoming this for us! Merely recognizing You and calling You the "scapegoat" wrings my heart and makes me choke up and cry, Lord! You are the one who did not deserve this! We deserved this, I deserved this, Lord, not You! The Scapegoat. The Scapegoat for me. My Scapegoat, Lord. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, Lord! But I recognize You did this of Your own free will, You did this out of love for me. Thank You, Lord, the Willing Scapegoat for me, for us all. Thank You. It was not fair in my eyes, but in Your eyes it is holy. It is Your love. It is Your grace. Thank You, Lord. Teach me Your love, fill me with Your heart, Jesus. Amen.
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain! |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 12:12 am: | |
P.P.S. About Jesus becoming accursed for us -- as Phil mentioned earlier, Deuteronomy 21:23 says that being hung on a tree is "being accursed." This could explain why the religious leaders were so intent on having Jesus crucified -- they wanted Him to be "hung on a tree" so that everyone would see Him as being accursed by God.
Yes. Exactly. That was God's plan.
Thank You, God! My heart is torn again with Your love, Your sacrifice! Thank You! I can't stop crying as I write these and praising and thanking You! Thank You! |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 3:42 am: | |
Thank you so much for explaining the Scapegoat. I did not know about the "cut off" part. I'm overwhelmed... it is very humbling... and I have so much gratitued for Jesus... I owe Him my whole life. I am nothing, but He redeemed me from the curse...
Thank you Jesus... may I glorify You today. Take my heart, it's yours.
~vivian |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1520
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 7:53 am: | |
I thought on this and wanted to share a few more thoughts...
In Isaiah 6:7 an angel touches Isaiah's lips with a coal from the altar and says,
"See, this has touched your lips;
your guilt is taken away
and your sin atoned for."
Many Christians historically see this as a picture of partaking of Christ's body (the sacrifice on the altar). Whatever the case, this shows the two-fold result of being touched by the Holy, by Christ's sacrifice:
1) sin is atoned for
2) and taken away
quote:Aaron is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.
- Leviticus 16:21-22
So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
- Hebrews 9:28
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
- John 1:29
Looking through Leviticus, there are just so many sacrifices! It's incredible, mind-blowing, and beyond fathoming. Growing up in Adventism, I knew Jesus was the "lamb", but I was woefully ignorant of how rarely it was actually a "lamb" that was sacrificed. Most often it was a bull, goat or a ram. Sometimes a heifer. Sometimes a calf. Sometimes a lamb. Sometimes a dove. Etc. As I look through Leviticus, it becomes obvious that each one of these sacrifices in some way represented Jesus. I can't always understand exactly how each one points to Him, but I know that each one does. No sacrifice was made to point to anyone else.
Hebrews 10 makes this clear:
quote:The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming [that is, a shadow of Christ]—not the realities themselves [compare this verse with Colossians 2:16-17]. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship... But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
You were not pleased.
Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about Me in the scrollE
I have come to do Your will, O God.' "
First He said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then He said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God... because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Each sacrifice that the Law required was a shadow of the One Sacrifice. Each bull, each goat, lamb, ram, heifer, dove and pigeon -- each of these were a shadow of the One sacrifice, the body of Jesus Christ.
None of those animals actually took away sin. Even the scapegoat did not actually "take away" sin. It, too, was a shadow of the One who would "take away" sins, never to be seen again:
quote:"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
- John 1:29
He appeared so that He might take away our sins.
- 1 John 3:5
Why were so many sacrifices necessary? The only reason we can come up with is that there are so many aspects of what Christ did that we could not understand His sacrifice any other way. One innocent animal sacrifice would not be sufficient enough to shadow everything that Jesus did for us in His death.
The concept of "taking away sin" is one that simply blows me away. Not only did He "forgive" us for our sins, but He took them away! Think about this. If He had merely forgiven our sins, the root of original sin & rebellion inside us would still be there. We would still be stuck with this iniquity, this propensity to sin. He would have forgiven us, but we would mess up again and His sacrifice wouldn't cover us anymore.
But when Joseph was told what to name Him, the angel said,
quote:"You are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save his people from their sins."
- Matthew 1:21
Not only would He "forgive" us (as wonderful as that is!), but, He would save us from our sins! That means He would take our sins away from us. He would take our original sin away from us. He would take away our iniquity, our soul's propensity to sin and bent-on-rebellion nature. He would take away "sin itself" by becoming our sin for us (2 Cor.5:21).
Lord, when I think of this, I am blown away and struggle to believe it. I've faced my own sins for so long, so often, and sometimes it's hard to believe that You've taken my sin away. You've taken away my propensity to sin. You've taken away my divided heart. Oh, God, You make me weep! You've taken away my bent toward rebellion. You've taken away my lawlessness.
You not only saved me from punishment -- You not only saved me from Your wrath against sin -- but You have saved me from sin itself. Thank You, Lord. Bury this truth deep, deep in my heart, Lord, and help me understand that I may see I have truly been set free from sin in You. Thank You, Lord Jesus. In Your name I praise You and thank You! Amen!
In Jesus' blessed name, amen!
Ramone
(Message edited by agapetos on May 23, 2008) |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 9:07 am: | |
quote:The concept of "taking away sin" is one that simply blows me away. Not only did He "forgive" us for our sins, but He took them away! Think about this. If He had merely forgiven our sins, the root of original sin & rebellion inside us would still be there. We would still be stuck with this iniquity, this propensity to sin. He would have forgiven us, but we would mess up again and His sacrifice wouldn't cover us anymore.
This was something I didn't know until 2 years ago. I tell you Ramone, that friends of mine (SDA) don't see the significance of this doctrine that Satan is the scapegoat. They see it (as I did for all those years) as just a minor aspect of the sanctuary that people debate over. It is significant!! By saying that the scapegoat represents Satan undermines, it takes away from the ministry and gospel of Jesus... it is ANTI-CHRIST!!!!
I can't stop reading your posts over and over... the shadow of the Scapegoat... the reality of Jesus and what He's done for me... my eyes are filled with tears, my heart with gratitude, my soul has peace and rest once again.
Thank you so much for sharing this today Ramone,
~vivian |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 10:16 pm: | |
Help me out, and please have mercy on me as I am not trying to create a errent theology, I stand to be corrected if need be,this post is more of a question than anything. We have all been exposed to enough errant theology to fill 20 million,to maybe 50 million lifetimes.
A key word in Lev.16:10 is the word wilderness.
Looking in Strong's word 4057 midbar; from 1696 in the sense of driving; a pasture(i.e open field, wither cattle are driven);by implication a desert; also speech ( including its organs):-desert, south,speech,wilderness
Organs? mouth, breath
Pasture? I'll make you lie down in green pastures
(The Comforter)
1696 dabar; a primary root;perh. prop to arrange; but used fig.( of words) to speak;rarely(in a destructive sense)to subdue:-answere, appoint,bid, command,commune,declare,destroy,give,name, promise,pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think,use[entreaties], utter,x well,x work
This as opposed to 3452 yeshiymown; from 3456; a desolation; desert, jeshimon, solitary, wilderness,///;;; a word not used in this chapter.
Now we know, that Jesus sits at the right hand of God,hardly the traditional idea of wilderness.( I'm sure they converse though)
And satan never acts on our behalf, so I would not expect any atoneing work from satan.
So I wanted to focus on the speech related definition of wilderness.
It's strange for me to do this, take a word and see it different from the familiar.
So the scapegoat ( JESUS ?, HOLY SPIRIT? ) is presented alive before the Lord( THE FATHER? JESUS? HOLY SPIRIT? )to make an atonement with him.
With who? Could "with", mean, along with?
Now the Father and Son are one, so it is us, not them that need atonement with each other.
Could it be that Christ, and the Holy Spirit, are making atonement with us? Reconciling us to the Father?The Father is already aware of the sacrifice made once by Jesus. But how deeply are we?
Who is it but Christ, And the Holy Spirit, that speaks ,answeres, appoints, commands, communes, declares,destroys (trouble in our lives), gives,,names(our destiny?), promises, pronounces,rehearses(shadows,of things to come), says, be spokesman, subdues, talks, teaches, tells, thinks, uses, utters(on our behalf),, works (on our behalf)
So I see the scapegoat as...
Christ after the sacrifice for our sin,after the resurection; giving us life, and life more abundently, giving us the mind of Christ.Speaking to us.Revealing to us the work that only he could do.
or..
Who is the fit man?
Is it Jesus?Is Jesus letting go the Goat(Holy Spirit) to speak to us ?
or...
Did the fit man, Jesus, lead a perfect spotless life and (Sacrifice himself) usher in the resurected Jesus, to guide us through the Holy Spirit?
or...
Is the fit man us when we accept what Christ has done for us?
or...
Any combination of the above?
Why couldn't the scapegoat, be the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit lives with us daily, even when we fail, or struggle. HE is aware of our iniquities, and lives with them daily.
I can think of no better way to blasphemy, Christ or the Holy Spirit than to portray him as satan.Forgive them father they know not what they are doing.
Help me out ,I feeled moved to post this but also like, "Who am I to say ?"
Forgive me Father I know not what I'm doing.
Chris |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 3:05 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Don't worry. Relax and ask God to rest you in His love (Zeph. 3:17). That's paramount, and key, and everything!
Resting in Him you'll see that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of everything. He is the beginning and the end of every prophecy. He is the beginning and end of every type. Every service and shadow and type was of Him. He was there before they were written and began, and He is their fulfillment.
In understanding shadow and type, start with the Light, not with the shadow. Don't force the Light to fit in the shadows. In other words, don't force something in Christ's life to fit every aspect of the shadows, ceremonies, etc. It's the other way around. Start backwards instead. Start with Christ who is the fulfillment, and then the things of the shadows will become clear.
Almost every aspect of the temple service(s) prefigured Christ. Especially on the Day of Atonement. Not only was He the sacrifice (each one of the five sacrifices, actually), but He was also the Priest. He was also the Mercy Seat. Each detail and aspect points to Him. You can see this in the book of Hebrews.
Must go. Blessings to you in Jesus, Chris!
In His love,
Ramone |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 7:54 am: | |
Thanks Ramone,
I sometimes box with the shadows, instead of just resting in Gods love, thanks for the reminder, the fight is over.
Chris |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 5:48 am: | |
(New link to a follow-up thread: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/7336.html?1212337888) |
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