| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1534 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi all, I put up the story of how God brought me out of the belief of "soul sleep". I had typed most of this on an earlier thread (see the first page of it), but added a little bit to it and tinkered with it a bit. I didn't go into a lot of the theology or texts, but rather gave an overall picture which hopefully highlights the "spirit" of things.  On my homepage blog: http://fulfilledinjesus.blogspot.com/2008/06/spirit-of-life.html On my FAJ blog: http://formeradventistjapan.blogspot.com/2008/06/spirit-of-life-leaving-state-of-dead.html Bless you in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1190 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ramone, what an inspiration! You have a beautiful website. You have such powerful pictures. They have a beauty and simplicity that truly comes from God. Thank you so much for sharing those with us! Gilbert | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 728 Registered: 3-2005 |
HALLELUJAH!!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 8206 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, what a great explanation of your progression of understanding! Thank you so much. I have come to believe that the Adventist doctrine of "soul sleep" (as Adventists define/teach it) is the most twisting, perverting doctrine of all. It eliminates the possibility of the new birth as taught by the Bible. It obscures Jesus' nature and makes His sinlessness something we can also attain; it alters the nature of man and of sin. It alters the nature of salvation and what it means to be saved. It is a horrendous doctrine that does nothing to protect its believers. It places them, in fact, in great danger and deceives them about the true nature of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit. It holds Adventists with a profound spiritual bondage. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1536 Registered: 10-2002 |
Colleen, You know, I must confess -- I am often unable to completely relate to how you & others here feel so strongly about this doctrine being the worst. I think the reason for it is probably because I didn't get taught the fullness of the doctrine. I got the "sleep" part, but I didn't get taught the complete negation of spirit & soul. I was taught "breath", but not taught against there being a spiritual "something" to us, something more than just physical/biological components. Then being introduced to the Holy Spirit (my revelation: "Oh, He still speaks today!") quickly buried any hint I might have gotten about there being nothing more to us than physical body & breath. The reality of the Spirit quenched that quickly, but it didn't have much to quench there -- that is, there was no struggle for me as there has been for others to believe that there is more than breath & body. For these things -- for my lack of thorough initiation into the physiological aspects of the SDA doctrine -- I am thankful. I'm thankful that somehow I didn't get the full indoctrination on that! The question for me was more of what happens to your soul when you die. Does it sleep? Does it sleep? Essentially while I knew our spirits are alive and not mere "breath", I didn't personally see my spirit as having enough "life" to think of it as being actually conscious. (For folks who see spirit and soul as being the same thing, this won't make sense, but Hebrews 4:12 makes it clear they are not, as well as the early Christian writings). Reading Cherry's study (where she laid verse after verse out about our spirits being alive and conscious), well, that was like magnifiying the point with a blessed megaphone! Prior to that I just hadn't linked things -- so if our spirits are conscious, then that means this core conscious part of us "goes to God" when we die! It was all downhill from there. That and noticing Paul's phrase in Romans 8 referring to Christ's second coming bringing "the redemption of our bodies". (Hmm... thinking I'd probably better add what I'm saying here this into the writing...) Anyway, I am newly counting it as a blessing I didn't get this doctrine grilled into me fully. I wonder how many Adventists are like I was, how much they've actually gotten the "there is nothing else but body and breath" drilled into them. In my family, the worst fruit of the SDA's SOTD teaching was the fear that came with it -- the false protection it promised against spirits, and yet the resulting fear it brought of false spirits and fear of the Holy Spirit, the fear of believing the Christian truth, and the way that it distracted from knowing the gospel truth as being the testing truth & rule of discernment for spirits. Whatever the case, "faith, not Sabbath" was my first leap, so I tend to see whatever undermines justification by faith (Christ our righteousness / salvation by Christ's finished work) as being the worst thing in SDA (or in any other non-evangelical church). Blessings alive in Jesus, in His life! Ramone | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 730 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ramone: It's interesting that you say you didn't get the true Adventist picture of soul sleep. (At least that's what I'm understanding you to be saying). I have a family member who says something similar. She says she is certain that there is some sort of consciousness after death...that we aren't obliterated. She says she knows of no such formula as body + breath = living soul. In any case, I don't disagree with you. I think you're backing it out to a bigger over-arching picture. I would suggest that soul-sleep is a closer-up picture of the doctrine within Adventism that keeps them from understanding and therefore embracing the doctrine of justification by faith. In other words, we can't have faith if we have no spirit by which to receive faith from God Who is spirit (John 3, Romans 12, Ephesians 1). Adventist doctrine itself has no teaching of justification by faith (even though the words are used). That's why I, too, see soul sleep as the most damaging doctrine within Adventism since it completely obliterates the new birth. On a happier note, that has helped me understand that the battle is won in the heavenlies, in prayer. The battlefied is in prayer. And He has just recently allowed us to see Him reign victorious in my own family with THREE family members right in a row! Praise God! He allowed us to be a part of it through praying "in the spirit" and "in our minds". It has been such an incredibly moving experience for us.... God is so good... Patria (Message edited by patriar on June 03, 2008) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5395 Registered: 3-2004  |
For myself, I cannot say which SDA doctrine is most damaging. All of their doctrine is so subtly mixed in with the Bible and can sound so correct if one does not know the Bible. Right now I am studying the FB#4 about Jesus Christ with a colporteur on CARM. As I read what the FB says and read each verse in context I first think, this is not off so bad. Then God prods me to read everything again and again and again until I see the subtle difference. This has been good for me as I have to dig into my Bible and pray and ask God to show me the difference and the subtleties. Our awesome God is doing that. Diana from the South. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2825 Registered: 9-2006  |
While in the military I was standing on one side of a clearing looking to the other side of the clearing, I was looking because I knew someone was there, I looked and looked and finally I spotted him, he was standing by a tree in full camo, my eyes had passed over him several times and there he was in plain sight, the dappling from the tree he was standing under moving over his camo. I am pretty sure he moved or I would never have seen him. Soul sleep is like that, I knew something was there but I looked and looked before I spotted it. Satan uses camo also, I believe it was Jesus mentioned “A wolf in sheeps clothing” under that tree was the sniper which looked like a tree, the wolf has made himself to look like a sheep where he can wade in for the kill, soul sleep looks innocent in the dappled shadows and substance of Adventism, this is the snake, the rifle aimed right at your heart, Its uncanny is what it is. Once I saw it I thought “why didn’t I see it before?” River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2826 Registered: 9-2006 |
In fact thats what all of Adventism is like, the devil in full camo, if you look at the trees (people) you are not seeing the sniper in hiding there. People keep seeing the just the tree's and trees can't shoot, its the sniper under the trees that can kill. Keep looking for the sniper Dianna or he might shoot your butt off! River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5396 Registered: 3-2004 |
Not as long as I have Jesus with me. I never go into anything like this alone. I have to agree whole heartedly, adventism is very deceptive. That is why I wrote that when I first read FB #4 I told myself, that is not so bad. I hope you noticed I did not say it was good. I saw something there but was not sure of it until I read and re read. God opened my eyes to the sublety. Diana from the south. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 618 Registered: 7-2005  |
Patria, you wrote: "And He has just recently allowed us to see Him reign victorious in my own family with THREE family members right in a row! Praise God! He allowed us to be a part of it through praying 'in the spirit' and 'in our minds'. It has been such an incredibly moving experience for us..." This has me very intrigued, Patria. I have questions. How many of you were praying? Did you pray aloud together or quietly alone? How often did you pray and how long did you pray each time? What exactly do you mean by praying 'in the spirit' and 'in your minds'? And, River and Mary, I have questions for you, too. In another thread you mentioned anointing doorways inside your house with oil and casting out evil spirits. I've done something similar, but not exactly this. I'd like to learn more about this strategy against the enemy. Can you explain in more detail how you do this and what scriiptures you use as your guide? Thanks in advance for your answers. Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2830 Registered: 9-2006 |
Honestwitness, It is a simple act of faith, you are in effect saying that you desire you house to be protected as a house of peace and rest and not turmoil. Simple acts of faith in Jesus, there are just too many scriptures in which anointing oil was used to give scripture, there is no particular scripture for anointing the pillar over the doors of your house that I know of although there are so many there may be one. But even if there is one we do not need to proof text and act of faith in Jesus. What it is is a simple act of our faith, the oil does nothing, there are no magical properties that I know of to oil. I have seen some send out olive oil "From the holy land" but I would what good is that over olive oil although I generally use purified olive oil to anoint peoples heads because it is clean (The kind suitable for ear wax removal)if I was out of olive oil I might even use 90 weight gear oil for over the doors. Yall go ahead and have a ball with this, but my home is at peace and my uncle has,nt been using curse words since I prayed and anointed my doors. I has been three days now. Thank God!! It was about to drive me nuts. Many people would laugh and smirk at this simple act of faith. Jesus demonstrated simple acts of faith, made mud for the blind mans eyes and so forth, it is just a physical expression of faith. taking our shield of faith to quench the fiery darts (arrows) (attacks) even while we try to rest at peace in our home. We are not doing an exorcism. Just a simple act of faith. Also (praying in the spirit) ( praying in tongues) Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. and I will pray with my mind also Corinthians I 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Corinthians I 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. And I will pray with mind also. (Praying with our mind)(Not praying in tongues) Of course my name is not Patria and she may have a diffrent explanation but I doubt it being very diffrent. Surprise me Patri. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2831 Registered: 9-2006 |
A point of faith. Just postulating I would say that Jesus in his great wisdom made mud for the blind mans eyes even though all he had to do was think healing for the blind man but this man had been blind many years. If you had say, a crippled leg that you had been borned with, it would be hard for you to have faith for healing of that leg, so Jesus did something that would give the man his “Point of faith” he made cool mud to go on the mans eyes and when the mud hit the mans eyes his faith In God soared, that was his “Point of faith” they took pieces of Pauls clothing and many were healed from the bits of cloth because that was their “Point of faith”, In one case a man told the Lord that it was not necessary to go to his home just “send the word” and Jesus remarked on his faith, he needed neither mud nor even Jesus to physically go to pray. Not all are like that man though and I dare say all of us need the mud or bits of clothing at time. I just wonder what each of your “Points of faith” are? Points of faith is ok too because without faith it is impossible to please God. Do you need a point of faith right now? Maybe ask God to make a little mud, 90 weight gear oil? Olive oil? The hem of his garment? Wash in the Jordon river? River | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 731 Registered: 3-2005 |
River, Surprise you talking about speaking in tongues uhhhh...yeah right. Honestwitness: River pretty much covered it. There isn't a specific time or amount of time that we pray other than that we try to be available when He moves us (my husband and I). Sometimes, my husband prays and I will be moved to pray in tongues quietly alongside him. ...so he and I are praying with the mind and with the spirit simultaneously. We don't have a set way of approaching it...we just try and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. Patria (Message edited by patriar on June 03, 2008) (Message edited by patriar on June 03, 2008) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1539 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Patria, As an Adventist, you would have already lost me at that point! Haha. Really, though, it would have been a very indirect thing for me to iron out. The whole question (ontological?) wouldn't have entered into thought because the "spirit is only breath" thing wasn't deeply thought-out. I had believed that the spirit was our breath, but I wasn't closed to believing it was more than our breath. That it was something of "spiritual" substance was not out of the question. So if you had posed the above argument to me, it would have probably confused me and I probably would've thought you were making an issue where there was no issue. I would have had to consider things I'd never considered before, such as "what is faith - is it physical or spiritual in substance?" Then I would've had to have broken down the philosophy and wondered if a non-spiritual body can receive the spiritual substance of "faith", or if it needs a spiritual component in order to receive the susbstance known as "faith". No offense meant, but it would have seemed very unnecessary and cumbersome for me to think on these terms. The teaching of justification by faith was something I first began to hear as I studed the 1888 twist on it. Adventism does have a teaching of JxF, it's just simply a corrupted version of the original. In more recent years and liberal areas it is given more attention, however, the problem isn't so much whether soul-sleep allows it, but rather that JxF is hindered by Sabbath and the Law. The new birth isn't deeply thought about -- but in my experience it was known and accepted. This may be in part simply because so many evangelicals talk of being "born again". The difference was that as an Adventist I was liable to be personally unsure as to whether I had been born again or not. The reason for this is not primarily because of the SOTD teaching, but is mainly because of the teaching of never saying you are "saved" and not knowing that your salvation is sure. Add onto this the lack of hearing the Holy Spirit for oneself and not knowing that He still speaks today. If you don't know that He speaks today, then you can't hear His voice telling you that you are God's child (Rom.8:16) and are born of Him. Also, even if you do hear Him for a moment, the authoritative nature of SDA teaching and EGW can make you quickly doubt whatever the Holy Spirit told you. Incidentally, Romans 8:16 is an interesting verse that brings out two things -- the testimony of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of our own spirit (pneuma, not pseuche). No matter what our soul feels like or thinks, we have a living spirit (pneuma) in us that is crying out "Abba! Daddy!" I would attribute ignorance of this point to SDA's SOTD teaching, but the fact that so many evangelicals are unaware of it makes me think it is a bigger issue than the SDA teaching alone. Back to "obliterating the new birth" -- basically the biggest problem for me wasn't the soul-sleep handicap, but rather the introduction of the "Law" standard into salvation and the negating of being "saved" (past tense). The "new birth", being "born again" sounded like it was supposed to take care of our problems, kind of like a magical fix for sin, and the rest of your life would be easy, not struggling, not trying, etc. In other words, firstly I wouldn't be sure that I was "born again", and the reason wouldn't be because I didn't believe it was conceptually possible, but rather because I had not experienced it, not felt it... it would've sounded like one of those Biblical promises that are too-good-to-be-true, and if other evangelicals laid claim to it, well, secretly I might envy them or I might look at them as if they were posturing (like claiming to be "saved"). Now, in Adventism I can clearly see the roots of this... the law, and the negation of being "saved". However, unfortunately this sentiment is not foreign to evangelicals. That means that the doctrines of Adventism are not the whole reason here. There is something bigger going on, and it has roots not only in Adventist churches but also in evangelical churches. In other words, while Adventist doctrine can contribute and magnify the problem, it isn't the source of the problem. Oops. Must go back to work... Blessings! Ramone | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-1999 |
I can remember as a young adult being told to "be careful what you pray for because you just might get it". And, I was also told, (concerning the Holy Spirit)"to be careful when you pray for THAT because you might receive it and not be ready for it". Were you all told similar things? The Adventist church I grew up in would periodically "pray for the Holy Spirit" but we were basically "warned" about participating in these prayers "because we might receive it". | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-1999 |
And what about the former and the latter rain? The Adventist church I was raised in was always talking about the latter rain and if you hadn't received the former rain you couldn't benefit from the latter rain. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2834 Registered: 9-2006 |
It is all a sad tail Lori, the whole kit and kaboodle of it. I have a close Adventist friend who longs for the perfection he cannot attain, he longs for assurance in his older years because he realizes the years have finally caught up with him and what the Adventist church has taught has not been realized and so it has left him short. Just this morning he said as to how he longed for the purity of the apostles, my friend has no peace because of unbelief. That is why I get so riled up when people talk like it is an innocent thing just because you are raised up in it and didn't know any better, he don't know better either, but does that give him the peace he longs for? Does this man who is so sincere and longing for peace know Jesus? If he does it surely can't be the God of peace that I know. Now I realize I am just venting here, but it drives me crazy to see my friend suffer this way and its not just today, it is constant. My Lord I get so peeved in my spirit. I have been peeved all morning because of what he said and I could so hear the longing in his voice I get down right fromulgated. I did get to dismiss us in prayer this morning and my prayer was in thanks that we can have assurance of eternal life, that there is no other name under heaven where-in we might be save other than Jesus. But they don't hear or see what I say dad gum it!! Gol Darned Adventism makes me want to eat a keg of rusty nails and go crap a boat loada horse shoes!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I feel a little better!! Please don't think less of me for venting on here a little. I am just sitting here with tears in my eyes because of this. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1541 Registered: 10-2002 |
I know, River, I know. This pain is "intercession". It is difficult and hard to see past when it comes, but it is a gift from Him, a gift of His heart. When it seems impassible, look to Him and let Him speak to you of His Son, whom He gave for all of us, and let Him fill you with His sorrow (Zech.12:10). | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 732 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ramone! I don't think we're totally disagreeing. I think we're at least somewhat talking about two sides of the same coin...though we say things very differently. Thank God He doesn't produce clones, right!? He can use each one of us in His way and truly He gives each of us perspectives for certain purposes. So, I think it's important to point that out because it may be that He's underscoring this for me for a specific purpose, He may very well have something else totally different for you. So we probably shouldn't waste our time defending and arguing this type of thing. I apologize for the distraction. And BTW: I would like to clarify that always, always, always this is for the purpose of understanding how to approach anyone in love. I would never suggest running up to an Adventist and beating them over the head with one of these thoughts as we're talking about them! Any of them. I figure anyone who is reading here is searching on some level. Interesting thought about Romans 12. I don't want to get into a debate about election vs. free will which is precisely where this will go if I respond to that. And since I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, He has been testifying HIMSELF alone. Does that make sense? Any doctrine that doesn't directly lead us to focus our eyes on Him alone is problematic. There are slightly different witnesses about this particular issue...and FAR less dogmatic. I'm curious to see how it will round out over time...it may not. Patria (Message edited by patriar on June 04, 2008) |
