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| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2010 |
Daniel 8 - Replies to Vance Ferrell's "A Biblical Defense" Answering Adventism's Folly By: Michael Harper First I need to warn the reader of this post that this article is some heavy reading. Keep in mind that Daniel 8 is VERY SIMPLE, so simple in fact that a child could understand and teach it. The only reason this article will come across as heavy reading or confusing, is because we are talking about the twisted interpretations of the Seventh-day Adventist church concerning this chapter. Adventist's have to do major acrobatic tricks to maintain that Daniel 8:14 belongs to the 1844 date. It is to all this that this chapter will come across as confusing. I will try to cover the Adventist interpretations on Daniel 8 in the simplest language I can, and offer reasons why their views on this prophecy simply do not work. I would advise that you read no further and any faster than necessary. Make sure you understand a paragraph before you go to the next. WRITE ME and I will send you charts that show just how simple Daniel 8 really is. I want everyone to have these charts. They make this prophecy very easy to understand. PLEASE do ask for these free charts - My email is michael.saved.by.grace@gmail.com. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. God authors no confusion friends, I will try to answer the confusion in as clear a way as I can. EXPLAINING DANIEL 8 IN ONLY TWO SENTENCES Daniel 8 begins with the Kingdom of Media and Persia, and makes known that Greece would conquer it and that the first king, Alexander the great would die and that his kingdom would be divided into four sub-kingdoms. Towards the end of the Grecian Empire (168 B.C). a tyrant arises out of one of these four sub-kingdoms and persecutes the Jews and “casts down the sanctuary and disrupts the “daily sacrifice,” for 2300 days, after which the sanctuary is restored. That is how simple Daniel 8 really is! At the end of this article we will close with a brief yet detailed explanation of Daniel 8, for those who want to know more about this prophecy. Don't forget to email me for those charts! Let me tell the story of Daniel 8 in a more modern setting. “A car appeared which had traveled all over the United States. When the car left it had a single driver (representing Alexander the Great). While on this trip the driver died, and four of his friends decided to continue this journey in his honor. As the car neared its final destination one of them was found driving recklessly. A police chase occurred where all kinds of laws were broken. Then someone asked, “How long did the car chase last? A man answered 23 miles and then order was restored.” The Adventist method of interpretation as it will be seen would pervert this simple story as saying that the car chase did not occur until the 23 miles were ended, and that NONE of the four men in the car were driving, that it was in fact a mysterious unnamed fifth person, and that they were not even in the United States, they were actually in a different country entirely. We will now answer Adventism's folly. Let’s begin by examining what Vance Ferrell presents in his book. I want to congratulate Vance Ferrell. I mean that sincerely. Vance attempts something that Ellen White never did. In all of her writings including the 100 pages of Great Controversy that she gives her views surrounding Daniel 8:14 she NEVER references the surrounding verses in Daniel 8. NOT ONCE! Least of which is Daniel 8:13 which states the very question that Daniel 8:14 answers. Why doesn’t Ellen White ever attempt to present Daniel 8:14 in the context of the question of Daniel 8:13. To do so would unravel everything she ever taught on the topic. In “A Biblical Defense” Vance Ferrell argues (quite thoroughly I might add) the following points. The Little Horn of the Roman Catholic Church comes out of the four winds, and NOT one of the four horns. The daily is in fact a reference to both the final pagan tribe being uprooted in 538 A.D. and also Christ's work in the first compartment in the heavenly sanctuary be finished in 1844. That the question “How Long?” Is actually asking “Until when” in the Hebrew. Vance asserts in his interpretation that none of the events referred to in the question of Daniel 8:13 need to be confined within the actual period of the 2300 days. In his view all of the points in the question do NOT necessarily begin until the END of the 2300 days. “The question of 8:13 does not ask “how long?” but “what happens when it ends?” - A Biblical Defense P. 102. Are we to understand that the sanctuary is both “cast down” by the Little Horn and “cleansed” by Jesus Christ at the end of the 2300 days? That would contradict itself! Not to mention sound very confusing. What did it mean to take away the “daily” or continual according to Vance? “By him the ‘continual’ was taken away.” At his order, the last of the pagan tribes was overcome, and the 1260 years of papal supremacy and persecution began.” - A Biblical Defense” P. 83. Please understand that “Concerning the daily sacrifice“ in Daniel 8:13 is a reference back to verse 11’s “daily sacrifice” being taken away. You will see why in a moment. Are we to understand that Christ closing his work in the first compartment in the heavenly sanctuary is what is meant “by him the daily sacrifice was taken away?” Daniel 8:11. Of course not! That would make Christ the Little Horn of Daniel 8. That is why no one makes that claim. No one accept for Vance. Vance paraphrases Daniel 8:13 for us. “To paraphrase the question more accurately, in accordance with the Hebrew: “Until what point in time shall be the vision about the continual first apartment ministry, and the desolating transgression, to give both the Sanctuary and God’s people to be trodden under foot?” - A Biblical Defense” P. 102. That would mean that Christ was to “take away” the ministry in the first compartment in 1844. That is exactly Vance’s point. But we must recall that it was the Little Horn that was to take away the “continual” as Vance styles it. That would make Jesus the Little Horn! But wait? Now I am confused? A moment ago Vance was telling us that “taking away the “continual” or daily was when “the last of the pagan tribes was overcome.” Is the daily which he calls the “continual” paganism or the first apartment ministry in heaven? Which is it? Are we to understand that the Little Horn (Papal Rome) bypasses the Pagan Roman Empire era entirely and that we are to jump from the Grecian Empires Demise in 168 B.C. over 700 years into the future to 538 A.D. without one word in Daniel 8 indicating that we are to do so? Are we to in its stead understand that the little horn was initially Pagan Rome and that later it transformed into Papal Rome so that it could fulfill the particulars of the prophecy and meet with Ellen White’s views? Doesn’t that also sounds confusing to you? That is the position “A Biblical Defense” takes on page 96. Vance asserts that it was the Catholic Church that acted the role of the Little Horn in casting down the sanctuary. “The place of His Sanctuary was cast down.” The pope declared that the only place where men could worship God was within Catholic churches and cathedrals. Any attempt to worship God outside of them was met with death.” - A Biblical Defense” P. 83. OK, now Vance is telling us that the 2300 day prophecy started in 457 B.C. and that “The place of His Sanctuary was cast down” actually occurred 1000 years later at the commencement of the Dark Ages in 538 A.D. . Of course! Anyone reading Daniel 8 would arrive at the same conclusion. I am being sarcastic of course. What we have here is clearly what the Bible calls a “private interpretation.” Now I am confused again, because later in his book he says that those things don’t happen until the end of the 2300 days. We repeat “The question of 8:13 does not ask “how long?” But “what happens when it ends?” - A Biblical Defense P. 102. Folks if we place ANY of the Little Horn’s activities mentioned in the question of Daniel 8:13 DURING the 2300 days we must put all of them there. If we say that everything the Little Horn does is at the END of the 2300 days then you need to stick to that. You cannot have it both ways. If you are going to place the Little Horn’s activities mentioned in the question of Daniel 8:13 DURING the 2300 days, on what grounds can you say they start right smack dab in the middle of the prophecy? A thousand years after it began in 457 B.C.! What in Daniel 8 can possible justify taking that position? The only way you can do so is to confuse the Daniel 8 Little Horn with Daniel 7. On the one hand Vance would like to say “Don’t worry about what the Little Horn does until the 2300 days ends. But on the other hand he recognizes that will not work entirely so he begins placing everything at the beginning of the Dark Ages at the beginning of the 1260 years in 538 A.D. Like many other Adventists he has done so by confusing the Little Horn of Daniel 8 with the Little Horn of Daniel 7. You will see this right down the line. Let’s take each item one by one. In all fairness we will do so using the correct Hebrew, “Until when?” We will further replace the word daily with the word ‘continual’ as Vance prefers. Until when shall be the vision concerning the continual? Lets first look at how Vance interpreted the “daily" on page 83 of his book. “Until when” will the last pagan tribe be uprooted? History records that happened in 538 A.D. A confused interpretation blending concepts from Daniel 7. If we start the 2300 days in 457 B.C. and then answer this part of the question the answer should have been “unto nine hundred ninety six days!” Now let’s look at how Vance interpreted the “daily" on page 102 of his book. “Until when shall be the vision concerning the continual first apartment ministry be taken away? Now we have something! The 2300 days ends in 1844 and matches the Adventist teaching that Christ ended his continual first apartment ministry at that time. Kudos, but unfortunately for Vance the teaching of Ellen White has Christ beginning his ministry in the first compartment in 31 A.D. when He ascended to Heaven, this does NOT begin in 457 B.C. It is too bad that Ellen White did not place the beginning of the 2300 days in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel 9! OF course that would have moved the end of the 2300 days to 2331 A.D. rather than in 1844. Until when shall be the vision concerning . . . . the transgression of desolation? Since Vance teaches that “Until When” actually means “what happens when it ends?” We must then ask, “What transgression of desolation took place in 1844?” Of course Vance knows this will not work and therefore asks us to time travel from the end of the 2300 days in 1844 back to 538 A.D. and once again misapplies the Daniel 8 Little Horn to Daniel 7. Until when shall be the vision concerning . . . . the sanctuary . . . . to be trodden under foot? Since Vance teaches that “Until When” actually means “what happens when it ends?” We must then ask, “how was the sanctuary cast to the ground in 1844?” Of course Vance knows that this will not work either and once again asks us to time travel from the end of the 2300 days in 1844 back to 538 A.D. where he again misapplies Daniel 8 Little Horn to Daniel 7. Until when shall be the vision concerning . . . . the host to be trodden under foot? Since Vance teaches that “Until When” actually means “what happens when it ends?” We must then ask, “how were God’s people persecuted in 1844?” Of course Vance knows that this will not work either and so for a fourth time we travel back in time from the end of the 2300 days to 538 A.D. and again he misapplies Daniel 8 Little Horn to Daniel 7. We have four items which the question covers. The daily or as Vance prefers, the “continual” The transgression of desolation The sanctuary . . . . to be trodden under foot The host to be trodden under foot Of the four items in Daniel 8:13 Vance was only able to get .25 (1/4 of one item) out of four to line up with his teaching that “Until When” actually means “what happens when it ends?” Vance gave two interpretations to the continual or daily. The “uprooting of paganism’s last tribe” completely fails at being possible in 1844. The other being the entire reason for his argument, i.e. the “ministry of Christ in the first compartment.” This does in fact end in 1844 according to Ellen White so we will give him that one. But this phase of ministry did not begin until the midst of the 70 week (Christ’s ascension) according to Mrs. Whites teachings. So we can only give a 1/2 a credit on this point. Nothing else could be argued as having happened in 1844. The daily or continual = Paganism FAILED Christ in the first compartment 50 % The transgression of desolation FAILED The sanctuary . . . . to be trodden under foot FAILED The host to be trodden under foot FAILED The argument “Until When” actually means “what happens when it ends” fails to defend the position of Ellen White. What it does for the thinking person is solidify the fact that the Adventist position is based entirely on a confusion of the Little Horn of Daniel 8 with the Little Horn of Daniel 7. Time and again Vance argues that the items of Daniel 8:13 were to begin at the beginning of the 1260 years of Daniel 7, having NOTHING to do with the 2300 days whatsoever. Having nothing to do with a single line in Daniel 8. “I saw in relation to the “daily” (Daniel 8:12) that the word “sacrifice” was supplied by man’s wisdom, and does not belong to the text.” Early Writings p. 74. Removing the word “sacrifice” was an error, made by Ellen White to cover up her false interpretation of Daniel 8. The Adventist have been left in a state of confusing dialogs about what the “daily” meant without the word sacrifice. Dozens of interpretations are circulated about it. Vance Ferrell adopted two of them in his book, neither of which agree with each other. The fruit of this statement by Ellen White is utter confusion. A completely confusing view of Daniel 8 that most laymen could not begin to explain. Instead they leave that up to the professional speakers and writers of the church. Daniel 8 is so simple that a child who is in the 3rd grade with its 3rd grade education could understand it and explain it. I will explain it in one sentence. Towards the end of the Grecian Empire a tyrant named Antiochus IV Epiphanies arises out of one of the four sub-kingdoms of Grecia, and persecutes the Jews and casts down the sanctuary and disrupts the “daily sacrifice” for exactly 2300 days, afterwards the sanctuary is restored. Let’s compare that with “A Biblical Defense.” In the latter time of the four sub-kingdoms of Greece actually means 700 years later in 538 A.D. Out of one of the four sub-kingdoms actually means out of one of the four winds. The sanctuary that is cast down is actually the Roman Catholic Churches teaching of salvation only within its churches. The daily sacrifices are both the final over throw of a pagan tribe in the last days or Rome (Not in the latter time of Grecia) and is also the ministry of Christ in the first compartment in Heaven. Trampling down the host of God’s people despite what the angel Gabriel says, does not happen in the “latter time of” Grecia’s kingdom, rather it begins in the latter time of Rome Kingdom beginning in 538 A.D. It does not last for 2300 days, because it actually lasts for 1260 days. I could also say that the locusts of Revelation 9 are actually military helicopters but that too would be a private interpretation. It would have worked out nicely if everything about Daniel 8’s Little Horn was written in with the Little Horn of Daniel 7. Then Daniel 8 could have been entirely written about Christ entering into the most holy place in 1844 and could have used the entire chapter to explain exactly what that meant. Unfortunately for Ellen White that is not how Daniel was inspired to write his book. Just a thought: If the work to be done by Christ in 1844 is truly just as important as the work of the Cross as Ellen White asserts why is it then that the New Testament says nothing about it? Why is it found only by doing gymnastics through a couple verses in Daniel 8? Why would a work just as important as the Cross not receive more attention in Scripture? Eluding to the words of my OLD favorite author... It is because the words “Investigative Judgment” was supplied by man’s wisdom, and does not belong to the text. Let me once again tell the story of Daniel 8 in the modern setting in which we began this article. “A car appeared which had traveled all over the United States. When the car left it had a single driver. While on this trip the driver died, and four of his friends decided to continue this journey in his honor. As the car neared its final destination one of them was found driving recklessly. A police chase occurred where all kinds of laws were broken. Then someone asked, “How long did the car chase last? A man answered 23 miles and then order was restored.” The Adventist method of interpretation would pervert this simple story as saying that the car chase did not occur until the 23 miles were ended, and that NONE of the four men in the car were driving, that it was in fact a mysterious unnamed fifth person, and that they were not even in the United States, they were actually in a different country entirely. The Bible says “out of one of them.” The context is clearly talking about the four subdivisions of the Grecian Empire, and yet the Adventist say, that it actually has nothing to do with the four subkingdoms of Greece, rather it was talking about one of the four directions on the map. The Bible asked “How Long?” Adventists say this does not mean how long it means what happens when it ends. Yet Adventist place most of the points in Daniel 8 in the middle of the 2300 days in 538 A.D. despite the fact that Daniel 8 has no connection to 538 whatsoever neither does it so much as mention the 1260 prophecy of Daniel 7. The reader is left to piece all this together through serious scriptural acrobatic tricks, because nothing in the text supports that position. The Bible says that this takes place in the “latter time of their kingdom.” The Adventist position is that everything begins 700 years later than this. There is no possible way that someone reading Daniel 8 would arrive at any of these conclusions by simply reading this chapter. These positions were painstakingly derived after much deliberate and careful maneuvering all in an effort to justify the position Ellen White took in her writings. Had Ellen White never been born, the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8 would simply not exist today. No one would have gone to the great lengths all this took to vindicate Crosier without the word of a prophet to validate his new theory. Especially since Crosier abandoned his own view. Surely some would have adopted it for a time, to comfort them after the great disappointment, but once people saw the inconsistencies, they would have sooner abandoned this false teaching rather than twist the meaning of Daniel 8 to the extent that Adventist have had to do. Adventist have had to twist what “Out of one of them” means. It is not talking about the four horns, oh no! it is talking about the four directions on the map. Adventist teach that the little horn of Daniel 8 is both pagan and papal Rome. Rome did not come “out of one of them.” Rome was founded in Italy which was never a part of Grecia. The later time of the four sub-kingdoms of Rome officially ended in 168 B.C. Rome was founded by Romulus 585 years earlier on April, 21 753 BC, long before the founding of the Grecian Empire in 331 B.C.. Rome was not founded “in the latter time of their kingdom.” Daniel 8:23. Adventist have had to twist what “In the latter time of their kingdom” means. They say this is actually Pagan Rome at first and then transforms into Papal Rome, and that all of the events actually began in 538 A.D. rather than 457 B.C. despite that this is when the prophecy begins in their minds. Adventist have had to twist the meaning of the “daily.” Although in the Adventist church the jury is still out on that one officially, Vance says that this is when the last pagan tribe was uprooted and that this is also when Christ ends his ministry in the first compartment in 1844. Both of these have different dates and have no connection to each other, and yet they both fulfill the “daily" according to “A Biblical Defense.” Why go to all this trouble? It is because Adventist will do anything it takes to avoid another “Great Disappointment,” and have to admit that Ellen White was wrong. If Adventists are willing to twist the meaning of Daniel 8 so that it would match what Ellen White taught, don’t you think it is possible that the Adventist Church might have twisted the meaning of other passages in the Bible so that they would appear to be in harmony with her writings as well? DANIEL 8 MADE SIMPLE Facts concerning Antiochus IV Epiphanies (reigned from 175 - 164 B.C.) POINT # 1 Antiochus IV Epiphanies came to power “in the latter time of their kingdom.” He came to power in 175 B.C. 7 years before the demise of the Grecian Empire. POINT # 2 Antiochus IV Epiphanies came “out of one of them.” He “ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC.” - Wikipedia. POINT # 3 Rome had increased its territory in every direction, whereas Antiochus IV Epiphanies did only seek to enlarge his territories ”toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." POINT # 4 The Little Horn is to persecute God’s people for 2300 days. Seventh-day Adventist teach that the Daniel 8 Little Horn is Rome and that the 2300 days began in 457 B.C. However Rome did not meet any Jews until 161 B.C. Rome continued to live peacefully with the Jewish nation and did not molest the Jews until after Palestine became a part of the Roman Empire in 63 BC. and therefore could not have persecuted them since 457 B.C. There are two principle methods of reckoning the 2300-day period: Reckoning from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae, in which Antiochus set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar (1 Maccabeus 1:59), to the victory obtained over Nicanor by Judas, on the 13th day of the month Adar, Anno 151, are 2300 days. The Jews kept an annual feast on the 13th of Adar, in commemoration of the victory. The period began with the defection of the people from the pure religion by the Jewish high priest Menelaus, on the 6th day of the 6th month of Anno 141. According to Josephus, Menelaus went "to Antiochus, and informed him, that they were desirous to leave the laws of their country, and the Jewish way of living according to them, and to follow the king's laws, and the Grecian way of living." (Antiquities, bk. 7, ch. 5.1) The period ended on the twenty-fifth day of Cisleu in the year 148, when the Jews offered the daily sacrifice on the new altar of burnt offerings (1 Maccabees 4:52). This is a total of 2300 days. Using either method results in a 2300-day period! POINT # 5 The Little Horn is to disrupt the daily sacrifices for 2300 days. Rome did no such thing in 457 B.C. In fact Rome did not cast down the sanctuary until 70 A.D. during Jerusalem’s destruction. Whereas Antiochus IV Epiphanies did in fact disrupt the daily sacrifices for exactly 2300 days. POINT # 6 The Little Horn was to “cast down” the sanctuary for 2300 days. In 457 the order came to RESTORE AND REBUILD the walls of Jerusalem, that is the opposite of casting down the sanctuary. The sanctuary was rebuilt at this time, not cast down! Rome lavished the sanctuary at great expense through King Herod to build it up, it did not cast it to the ground until 70 A.D. ! Whereas Antiochus IV Epiphanies did in fact cast down the sanctuary for exactly 2300 days. |
