| Author | Message | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2010  |
My daughter called and shared this with me today. I thought it would make for good reading and discussion. What do you think? =============================================== Steve McSwain.Speaker, thinker, activist, and spiritual teacher; author, 'The Enoch Factor: The Sacred Art of Knowing God' Posted: July 24, 2010 Finding God After Leaving Religion Thirty-four million Americans have given up on organized religion, according to the most recent American Religious Identification Survey. Yet for many of these dropouts -- from churches, synagogues, temples and so on -- spirituality is still a vital part of their lives. How else would you explain the phenomenal success of Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now, Elizabeth Gilbert's Eat, Pray, Love (soon a major motion picture), or the writings of the Dalai Lama, Deepak Chopra, and others like them? Just because people are fed up with organized religion doesn't mean their appetite for spiritual things has been swallowed up, too. I know because I was one of these millions who dropped out of active involvement in organized religion. But unlike the majority of the other 33,999,999 dropouts, I was a religious leader when I did. I grew up in the church, the son of a Southern Baptist minister. When I graduated from college, I went to seminary, and after several years of study, I began my career as a professional minister. It wasn't long, however, before I discovered that the church was more lost than the world it was trying to save. Go into many churches today, and instead of finding an institution interested in saving the world, what you may find is an institution vastly more interested in saving itself. For example, people go to church to find God. Instead of finding God, however, followers are often saddled with a catalogue of "do's" and "don'ts" as onerous as the US tax code. They are told what to think, how to believe, as well as how they're supposed to live. In many places, the church is still the most segregated place in America. Where I grew up, some 40 or so years ago, many of my neighbors attended the Baptist church my father served. That is, if they were white Baptists; the black Baptists had a church of their own. Or they attended one of the other three mostly-segregated churches that occupied one of the four corners of Main Street. Today, however, your neighbor is just as likely to be black as white, or Muslim as Christian. Maybe people are leaving the church because they'd prefer to live in the real world -- the desegregated one. Then, there are those church leaders who seem obsessed with having the biggest church, the largest crowds and the most expensive campuses. While 40 million people died of starvation in the last decade, churches spent $10 billion on campuses. Perhaps some churchgoers departed because they'd rather their charity actually make a difference in the world. If you went to church looking for relief from the stress and burdens of living, you might have found more of the same, only dressed as beliefs and dogmas, rules and expectations Then, there's the debating, disagreement, and division that goes on between churches, as well as between people in the same church. I call it the "We're right! You're Wrong!" syndrome: each group insisting that their beliefs are right, which by implication means that everyone else's beliefs are wrong. "We're in; you're out!" "We're the chosen ones; you're not!" Maybe those who came looking for some sanity in life are leaving the church to preserve what little remains. What about the seemingly endless clergy scandals? It may be several years yet before we know the full impact of this demonic debacle. I suspect that scores of people are just plain fed up with an institution that would "condemn gays and lesbians for coming out of their closets," as someone characterized it, "while hiding clergy pedophiles in its own." Some 15 or so years ago I, like millions of others, dropped out of active involvement in the church. Soon thereafter, I began wondering where to go to find God. For a few years, I went nowhere. I just wandered around in a kind of spiritual wilderness. Then, one Sunday afternoon, completely unexpectedly as well as outside the church, I had a deeply profound spiritual awakening. I describe it in my book, The Enoch Factor. Among the many realizations to which I awakened was this: "You don't have to go to church to know God." For reasons too obvious to mention, this isn't the kind of message the church, or any religion, wants spread around. But it's true nonetheless. There is no religion, not even the Christian religion, holding the title deed to God. God's grace is not limited to a select few. The moment any religion believes it is, you can be sure that religion knows nothing of God. If there is anything Jesus, and the Buddha, made abundantly clear it is that the wind blows where it will. You can hear it, see its effects, and feel its power, but you can never contain it. In other words, the moment I stopped trying to find God, God found me. I love the way Deepak Chopra once framed it: "God is not difficult to find; God is impossible to ignore." Even the title to this article, "Finding God After Religion," seems to imply that there's something you must "do" to know God. But the real truth is this: there is nothing you need to do to know God. You know God already. The mistake that virtually all religions make, including Christianity, is to confuse beliefs for faith and, as a consequence, condition people to think that there are things that they must do, duties that they must perform, etc., for God to be pleased and her presence to be known. Finding God after religion? Remember the following: In Eastern thought, there's something called "the law of least effort," or "do less and accomplish more." If you will give up the "doing" and, instead, just enjoy "being," I think you'll make a great discovery. The psalmist said, "Be still and know ... " In my own experience, I have found that when I'm present (and that's my spiritual practice), I'm immediately in Presence, the real and sacred sanctuary of God. What more would you want? What more would religion ever give you? | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2000 |
Among the many realizations to which I awakened was this: "You don't have to go to church to know God." For reasons too obvious to mention, this isn't the kind of message the church, or any religion, wants spread around. But it's true nonetheless. There is no religion, not even the Christian religion, holding the title deed to God. God's grace is not limited to a select few. The moment any religion believes it is, you can be sure that religion knows nothing of God. The above quote is a heresy known as Universalism. Anyone who thinks you don't have to go to church to know God has been going to the wrong church. The church is where the word of God is pronouced, explained, treasured and shared. Anybody who thinks you can be a Lone Ranger christian is in for a rude awakening. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1134 Registered: 7-2004  |
Well I have a negative reaction to that article. Yes, there are plenty of "problems" in organized Christian churches, but Christianity has the Gospel and it can be found in plenty of Christian churches. Not that we have to be affiliated with a church, but the Bible does tell us not to neglect "assembling together" and there is spiritual growth to be gained through the wisdom and support of other Christian believers. Jesus is God, and according to the words of Jesus Himself, Jesus is the only way. It may be exclusive but it is true, and who am I to argue with God? Besides, once a person actually realizes the full extent of human sin, that even the best person's righteous deeds are still tainted with sin and as filthy rags, we can see how hopeless we are and how we need a Savior. That only Savior is Jesus, because He was the only perfect Sacrifice and only His righteousness counts in place of our own. And it is a gift freely given to those who believe. That is what true Christianity as taught in the Bible offers that absolutely no other religion can: the imputed righteousness of Jesus that brings our dead spirit to life and connects us with God. Any religious leader who does not acknowledge this about Jesus is a false teacher and not of God, no matter what connection they think they have with God. He who has the Son has life, and he who does not have the Son does not have life. And if one has the Son, he/she will acknowledge that Jesus is the only Way, Truth, and Life. It's that simple. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2009 |
Provocative. My idea: Church - get together & eat. Take care of the widows & orphans, in an organized manner. Share the good news with others. The best 'church' I've ever been to was the 6 years I attended 12 Step groups 2-4 times a week. It is what I believe 'church' should be but isn't. It is a safe place, confidential, anonymous, all are equal, no guilt, no membership, no dues, they can't kick you out. There are guidelines for sharing. Anyone can volunteer to chair the group discussion. No cross-talking or giving advice, no interrupting, talk only about yourself. Limit your sharing to give everyone a chance. These things are read every meeting - no one is singled out, no newbies are left wondering or embarrassed. It works. Let go & let God. Learn to depend on Higher Power. People get better. God does it. Another author on the same topic is Barbara Brown Taylor - Leaving Church. She was an Episcopal priest for 15 years & left the church. Interesting story - finding God & connecting to people without the clerical collar. J9 | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 734 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I understand how people are drawn to this type of thinking. It all sounds so logical and the concept and words are beautiful and seem to make so much sense......BUT The big missing piece in all of this searching for God outside of religion is JESUS. All of the so called "spirituality" that is going around is trying desperately to convince everyone that it is above religion and all inclusive. The only problem lies in the fact that to be all inclusive you have to get rid of Jesus. Christianity is about accepting Christ. No matter how much bad religion has tried to pervert it, it is still about HIM. When people who aren't Christians use the word "God" it could mean anything! Until you have Jesus, who is God in the Flesh, you have nothing. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2009 |
I agree that we must have Jesus & our focus must be on Him, that our sharing is the good news of salvation. I believe that we can somehow do that best along guidelines similar to the 12 Step process. It is a kind of discipline. We can share, but not argue or be hurtful. The Holy Spirit is still in charge of us, of teaching us, of changing us, making us fruitful. <grin> | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 734 Registered: 7-2000 |
1john2v27nlt wrote: We can share, but not argue or be hurtful. The Holy Spirit is still in charge of us, of teaching us, of changing us, making us fruitful. The problem with this is that there are times when theological viewpoints have to be called out and shown to be the heresies that they are. That process is always hurtful to some. Look at the letters St. Paul wrote where he really took church members to task on issues. Look at St. Johns' letters where he says to not even give a greeting to a false teacher. What I see in the Bible is contrary to what you are advocating. Further, the process must be given structure and form through the Church. The Holy Spirit doesn't operate in a vacumn, but through the Christian church. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11472 Registered: 12-2003  |
In order to comment on this issue, I have to say from the get go: the bottom line premise of reality and of this forum is that the Bible is the word of God. It is reliable, inerrant, and the source of our objective knowledge of God's will. So, with that foundation, the Bible itself identifies and clarifies truth and error. As Raven said above, Jesus said He is the only way, the truth and the Light. He who has the Son, has Life. He who does not have the Son, does not have the LIfe (1 Jn. 5:11-13). Moreover, the Bible identifies the gospel: 1 Cor. 15:1-4 says the gospel is this simple, three-part historic reality: Jesus died according to Scripture, was buried, and was raised to life on the third day according to Scripture. While there are plenty of other things that flow from the gospel and are fruit born by people who are changed by the gospel, those things are not the gospel. Moreover, Jesus Himself said there is a requirement for seeing the kingdom of heaven: being born again of the Spirit. This new birth is possible only one way: as the result of hearing and believing the gospel (Eph 1:13-14; Acts 2). Furthermore, the whole book of Ephesians describes the "body of Christ" which is the church. People who are born again are transferred by God from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13), and when this transfer occurs, they become part of Christ's own body of which He is the Head, and they become adopted as God's children and co-heirs with Christ (Rom 8: 14-16). The church is never defined by isolated members. It is a body, and God's intention is for us to function as a body with individual functions and gifts with Jesus as our Head. We sharpen each other and grow together into the unity of the faith and into the fulness of Christ (Eph. 4). Church is all those who are born of the Spirit and who are transformed by the gospel, covered with Jesus' blood and credited with His "alien-to-us" righteousness. We are, as Eph. 2:20-21 describes, being built into a holy temple in Christ as a dwelling place for God by the Holy Spirit. This is the definition of "church". Congregations, according to Paul's instructions to Timothy and Titus in the pastoral epistles, are to be places where we hear and learn the Scriptures, where our leaders protect us from false teachings and identify false gospels and warn against false teachers. Anything that gives us permission to embrace a notion other than "Christ alone" as our identity and any mission other than the one Jesus gave before his ascension, to make disciples and baptize believers, is deviating from Scripture. Now, if a congregation IS preaching the gospel and teaching Scripture as a regular diet but also feeding the poor , ministering to the needy, etc etc etc., then you have an effective local church body. But even the idea that someone could say, "no religion holds the title deed to God" misses the point. Man holds no "title deed" to God. God holds the title deed to us. He is in the "driver's seat", not us. Moreover, speaking of "religion" and "spirituality" is also a smokescreen, ultimately. Knowing Jesus is neither a religion nor a form of "spirituality". The Bible calls it a new birth because it is. Knowing Jesus is like being born into and adopted by a completely new family with a new inheritance. It is a completely new existence. It is a new identity. We go from having dead spirits to spirits alive with the indwelling Life of God. This new identity is not a religion. It is Life. The world has only two kinds of people: the spiritually dead who are in the domain of darkness where ALL of us are born, and the born-again who have been transferred into the kingdom of God's beloved Son. There is no "halfway ground". We are not born saved, losing salvation by failing to embrace "grace". We are born dead, and God brings us to life by granting us faith to believe and embrace the gospel. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8368 Registered: 3-2004  |
For about 30 years my spiritual guidance and "church" was a 12 step program also. The few times I did go to church it was to the sda church. I had met a couple there who loved and accepted me. When the pastor found out I had been raised sda we talked about it. I told him I would go to a church that treated me and accepted me like my 12 step program. God took me to that church when He took me out of adventism. Oh, that couple I met left adventism 2 years ago. Yeah GOD!!! We even have a Christ centered 12 step program at our church called Celebrate Recovery. I am privileged to be on a team that is taking it into the state prison and county jails. God put me in the church He chose for me. That is awesome. Diana L | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2009 |
Diana, I believe the 12 step program IS Christ centered. That is why some people reject the 12 step program. Do we really need a 'Christ centered 12 step'? Seems redundant to me. NOT meant to be argumentative. Meant rather as 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' <grin> Believe it or not, I found this in an SDA treatment center where I went for 6 weeks. The director of group therapy said several times that it was her personal belief that when God couldn't get the message of salvation by grace understood any other way He finally gave it to gutter drunks - that 12 step recovery was salvation by faith with shoes on. I have pondered on this over the 20 years since I went there. Absolutely the Bible is our standard where God & truth are recorded for us. It is just that for ME as an SDA I knew nothing about giving it all to God & trusting the Holy Spirit. I was all in my HEAD & had no 'heart.' Either one without the other is a ditch. God wants us to be balanced. As an SDA I believe I was so afraid of demonic spirits & being deceived by them that I was also afraid of & rejecting of the Holy Spirit. I CAN trust the Holy Spirit to guide me into ALL truth. I must communicate with God continually, ask & read to find the truth according to His Word. I can't take anything because 'someone' says it is so - even here on these boards. <verybiggrin> But I will certainly consider what I find here. . . J9 | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 243 Registered: 6-2008 |
J9, Those last 2 paragraphs really resonated with me! The past couple of years I have studied God's Word and prayed (really communed) with my Lord more than at any other period of my life. He has opened my mind and my heart in ways I had never thought possible, and He has truly satisfied the deepest desires of my heart. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8369 Registered: 3-2004 |
1john, In regular 12 step programs people are allowed/encouraged to make their Higher Power whatever they want him to be. I have seen it in all 12 step programs. In many meetings the Lord's Prayer is no longer said. In some meetings talking or mentioning God/Jesus is discouraged. In Celebrate Recovery our higher power is Jesus Christ. I am glad that you found Christ in a 12 step program. I did not, but I learned a lot about him from the Christian men and women I found there. It was through the 12 step programs I learned to accept people as they are. I learned I was a child of God and I learned how to use "I" messages. I like to saw the 12 step program cleared my brain of the adventist cobwebs so that when Jesus called me I had no hesitation in following Him. There is a former sda pastor I know in VA whose wife joined my 12 step program. Before leaving VA I spoke to him. He told me he did not like 12 step programs because each person had a different higher power. I did not know what he meant until I started Celebrate Recovery. I think both, all 12 step programs and Celebrate Recovery, are necessary. We have both found recovery and for that I am happy and thank God. God bless you as you continue in your recovery. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on July 26, 2010) | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 898 Registered: 1-2003  |
I was up reading last night . . . Mary and Joseph lost track of Jesus as they were on their "religious journey" and I wonder how often we lose track of HIM as we get involved in our "religious journey"? My prayer is that each of us will stay focused on HIM and not lose track in our search for TRUTH. I want to just stay in His arms and be His son. http://www.thejesusmanifesto.com/LosingTrack.pdf . | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2009 |
Diana L, Thanks for helping me understand. I do wonder though if by trying to keep 12 step 'christian' perhaps we shortchange the power of the Holy Spirit & become controlling - of the process. I used to wonder why Billy Graham baptized people into Jesus Christ & then said 'go join the church of your choice'!?! Well, is that not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us? Why doesn't the Holy Spirit lead us all to the same church (er denomination)?? if He leads us into all truth? Can we believe & trust that the Holy Spirit can lead us to truth even if we have a Higher Power, Mother God, whatever we need to call it, perhaps due to some horrific past experience in our lives? Abuse by a father, so for awhile we need a mother figure? I had a young college girl sit in my living room years ago saying 'I don't have a problem with Jesus Christ, but I do have a problem with God the FATHER because of what my father & grandfather have done to me.' She needed healing, & along the way she needed to NOT have to claim God the Father at that point. Does that mean she will never do that? Just as we need time to process out of SDAism & say that it can take years to lose all the brainwashing, can we allow people that freedom & trust the Holy Spirit? Just wondering & open to ponder other viewpoints. J9 | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2009 |
Seekr777, I find your posts timely & pithy. Thanks for this one, pointing to Jesus - keeping us focused on HIM. J9 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8370 Registered: 3-2004 |
1john, why don't you go to this website. It explains how and why Celebrate Recovery started. http://www.whylifechurch.com/Celebrate_Recovery.php I have many friends who found sobriety in a regular 12 step program and go to CR after they learned about it. My first 12 step sponsor was an atheist and had had sobriety at that time for 10 years. So I know 12 step programs work. For my self I did not get long term sobriety until I got into CR. That was not the fault of the 12 step program. It was because there were things in my background that I was unaware of and did not learn of them until after a year I moved to NV. It was not until 2007, when CR started in my church, and I was doing a 4th step inventory. I was writing about this new knowledge when I learned why I had not attained sobriety. I like CR b/c I can publically say I am a child of God. In fact when we introduce ourselves we do not identiry as our disease (that was another thing the former sda minister in VA did not like). I say, Hi, my name is Diana. I am a child of God and I am bothered with .............. whatever the addiction is. Diana L | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2009 |
Diana, That is a point well taken about not forever being identified as a disease. Remembering that WE are powerless IS a good thing. Knowing that WE don't do it but HE DOES is crucial. I just don't want our various viewpoints to trip us into 'being right' & making someone else's position 'wrong.' Guess that is my weakness, my filtering things through a lifetime of 'we are right; we have the truth' thinking. Thanks for dialoging with me. J9 | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2010 |
Seekr777, So true. Coming from the fact that I used to work for the denomination, I've often heard it said that we are so busy working for the Lord that we forget or lose sight of the Lord of the work. Pat | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8372 Registered: 3-2004 |
1john, one important thing I have learned is that God gets to people in so many different ways. I am glad He used a 12 step program in an sda treatment center to get to you. He has used CR to strengthen my faith in Him. God bless you my brother in Christ. Diana L | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 899 Registered: 1-2003 |
Friends I fine it so easy to lose track of him. This can happen both as an Adventist and as a former Adventist. I need to stay focused on HIM and not let my search for truth be in my head alone, but also open my heart for His Spirit to move in and change me. I want to be totally sold out to HIM, and able to exhibit His love to all those I come in contact with. I know I'm not a good enough theologian to win others through weight of argument but I can win them through Love and saying to them let me introduce you to my Savior. Having said that I know it is important that I spend time in study and prayer so I know Him myself but not to win an argument. I want to "wrap them in my arms" and welcome them home to their Father. Each person I meet is a child of God who He died for and I want them to understand His great sacrifice. |
