| Author | Message | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2006 |
The fact that there are many who are now and will be lost (deceived) is sobering and painful. Our enemy is working to keep people deceived. Nobody who understands what hell is like would choose to go there. In that sense, all who are lost are deceived. Many have been born and raised in cultures with false religions both here and abroad. God does though provide ways to truth, I believe for all people. He is just and love. We don't understand everything now, but we will. God has provided a way of escape from what we deserve in Jesus. He has provided a way for us to assist in the spiritual warfare for those who are deceived through prayer. We can pray for those who are lost. There is amazing power in prayer. If everyone who said they prayed for the lost really did, the spiritual victories would be so amazing. Yen, I didn't mean to start anything. I love and value you as a sister in Christ. The doctrine Adventists teach about hell is wrong. The doctrine they teach about Jesus making up for what we lack in spite of our best efforts is wrong. Their whole view of salvation is wrong. Ellen's teachings messed everything up. This forum is important. We were taught heresy in the Adventist church. It is not minor stuff, but salvation that is at stake for many. I was only in the church for 6 years and it messed me up royally - and I was from a godly family and scripturally sound church. I can only imagine what it is like for those of you who were generational. This is spiritual warfare! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 307 Registered: 6-2008 |
I truly believe there is NO salvation except by the blood of Jesus! We have all earned condemnation; we are all sinners in need of a Saviour! It is only the mercy of Christ that He gave His life to save us! We absolutely cannot be saved except by Christ's sacrifice, no matter what our walk in life, our heritage, our anything! It has absolutely nothing to do with salvation by works! I never said otherwise. I also never said or implied that ignorance will save a person! Neither will deliberate sin, mistakes, or repentance! What I did say is that I believe that, in His mercy, Christ's sacrificial salvation may be extended to some who are not fully aware of the WHOLE GOSPEL! In other words, your salvation is not dependent on what you happen to know, either! Head knowledge also will not--cannot--save anyone!!! Even the devils know and tremble! I am also NOT claiming that those who continue in deliberate, knowing, willful, rebellion or in deliberate ignorance ("Don't tell me; I don't want to know!") will be saved against their will!!! Please don't attribute such evil words/ideas to me! And I won't attribute your misunderstanding to a deliberate evil intent on your part! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11563 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yenc, I used to struggle with this very issue. I have come to realize that God is sovereign, and the Lord Jesus makes it possible for every person to know Him. Those who don't know Him because their deception led them not to recognize Him have, in some way, rejected His revelation. As the Romans 1:18-20 says all men "are without excuse". This means what it says. All men are without excuse. God reveals Himself, and people can know Him--or not. What I've come to see is that it is not our SINS that cause us to be lost. Our SIN causes us to be born dead, condemned to hell; we are lost, however, on the basis of whether or not we place our faith in the Sin Bearer. The issue is not "sin". Jesus changed the issue; He became sin and paid the price God demanded. Consequently, people are saved or lost on the basis of Jesus. Period. He is so faithful! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1101 Registered: 10-2008 |
I just read this thread ... I was struck by some phrases and the meanings I used to have under those phrases. For example: "Living up to the light that is given". In Adventism I understood this phrase to mean that God judged us by what we understood. That those that never heard the gospel in tribes in backwoods places in this world would be saved, because ... they would be living up to the light they knew and God was ofcourse, a God of love. I have now come to understand that there is only one light ... Jesus Christ. As already has been stated it is Jesus and Him alone that saves. John 1 speaks of Jesus as light. And the gospel is quite simple ... "Living up to the light that was given" is an EGW coined phrase. I can trust God with all the possible scenerios, because He is 100% just and 100% merciful. Yenc, I'm not picking on you, but you wrote above:
So my question would be what is your definition of the WHOLE GOSPEL? I believe the thief on the cross probably didn't understand much, but He did have to know one important thing ... Jesus was God, was dying, was innocent, the thief was dying justly for His sin, and the thief believed Jesus would rise again and was his only hope. I just reread the story in (Luke 23:39-43). Something happened in the thief's heart to receive Jesus as His Lord. 1 Cor. 15:3-4. The Whole Gospel is Jesus ... so I'm just confused by the quote above, because the first sentence seems to disagree with the second sentence. Again, I'm just trying to understand. Keri P.S. One thing I didn't understand in Adventism was God's wrath ... Now I know I was born under God's wrath ... We are actually all objects of God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). Doomed ... And there is only one way ... the way the one thief took on the cross ... | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2084 Registered: 4-2000  |
Since in heaven the saints will have glorified bodies (with no fleshly bent toward evil), our sovereign God is not taking any risk in having human beings tarnish a holy environment. With a glorifed body, even the vilest offender in this life would not pose any threat to the glory of heaven (i.e., the penitent dying thief, David, etc.). Adventists and some others typically say that they could never love, respect, and worship a God who faithfully chooses His family members (John 6:37,44,65). Moreover, Seventh-day Adventists insist that this would amount to nothing less than humans being merely "robots" in this life. Yet our SDA friends long for, hope for, and pray for the "robotic" life forever in heaven. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 309 Registered: 6-2008 |
I was trying to think of one last way I could possibly explain what I've been trying to say before giving up entirely on the whole Forum (and yes, that was and may still be a serious consideration on my part), but you, Keri, have been reasonable and respectful, and I will try once more to respond. As I prayed for a way to explain, suddenly the thought came to me: American Indians! In traditional American Indian culture (and I can't immediately name specific tribes here) the people worship the Great Spirit, who they know is the Creator, but they don't know Him as Jesus Christ. They never heard of the Trinity, the crucifixion, the resurrection, the atonement, the plan of salvation, the Second Coming. But they believe the Great Spirit is in charge of the world and of their lives, and that He wants them to be honest and fair, to support their families, to be strong and healthy. They give Him thanks for their food and their land. Now, can you honestly tell me that God doesn't care about that and will destroy them in hell because they didn't know about the "whole Gospel"? Do I believe their salvation depends on their "works"? NO! But I believe such people will be saved by the mercy of God, because Jesus gave His life for them, whether they know it or not! I believe we will see them in heaven someday, and they will be part of the prophecy in Malachi 4:1, 2: (1)For the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven: and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings: and ye shall go forth, and shall grow up as calves of the stall. I believe God will amply reward their trust and their faith, and in heaven they shall "grow up as calves of the stall." They will bow in grateful worship when they learn the whole story of salvation! And some of the "proud" on this Forum, who seem to think they know everything and that they have the right to be insulting, will be shocked to find themselves somewhere else! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2501 Registered: 8-2004  |
As one of those who apparently came across as insulting, I apologize. I was not trying to hurt you or anyone, and was certainly not trying to come across as proud. I agree with you that there are those who have never heard of Jesus who will be saved - if that were not so, what would happen to all the people of the world from before the cross? At the same time, the only way to salvation is through Jesus. If there were a way to be good enough to be saved without Him, what's the point of God sending Him? It is through God's intervention that we are saved, not by our being good enough. In the Indian description, I think you hit exactly on the point: Those God saves will be saved because they trust Him, even if they don't know every detail about Him (after all who does?). Even that trust, though, is a gift of God,and and it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2502 Registered: 8-2004 |
PS: About leaving the forum. I understand the feeling. I've had it numerous times, and have sometimes taken extended breaks myself. But it is not a bad thing to see differently from one another or to argue our own viewpoints. Disagreeing agreeably is a learned skill which some of us have mastered better than others. Please be patient with me while I learn! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 314 Registered: 6-2008 |
You got it, Helovesme2! You got it! Praise the Lord! Thank you for responding. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 315 Registered: 6-2008 |
Mary, P.S. You are NOT one of the more offensive ones! I pray for them, too, because some of them have revealed a holier-than-thou spirit of contention, pride, and downright hostility to others who are still learning, as we ALL should be. I know I have a lot to learn and a lot to unlearn, but Jesus never beat up on the lambs who were still learning to walk, and these people shouldn't, either! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11566 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yenc, yes. Salvation is about trusting and worshiping God. It's not about knowing Jesus' name, or the details of who He is and How He did it. It's about responding first to God's general revelation, as per Romans 1:18-20, and trusting Him. But we can't say salvation is for everyone who sincerely worships the religions of darkness. It must be God Almighty. Heres the part I didn't understand as an Adventist: God reveals Himself. He reveals Himself to every single person who is ever born, and as people respond to His revelation of Himself and His divine power, He reveals Jesus to them. We don't have to worry that the aborigines may die without hearing the gospel. God reveals HIMSELF, and as people acknowledge and respond, He brings them, on this side of the cross, to know about Jesus as well. I can't explain HOW--but I know He is giving dreams of Jesus to Muslims who want to know what is true. They have already responded to God's general revelation and KNOW He IS. And they want to honor Him--so He reveals Jesus to them and helps them know how to learn of Him. We can't ever say any individual is saved or lost. But we can speak generally, and this is the truth the Bible teaches. I heard a sermon in the LLU Church in the 90s. William Loveless preached that Jesus' blood bought the salvation for all sincere worshipers, whether Buddhist or Hindu or whatever--(I'm not directly quoting him, please understand...). He essentially said that those who never hear of Christ but are sincere worshipers will be saved because of Jesus. I now see Loveless was wrong. Jesus' death does not save people who sincerely worship a false god. This cannot be true, because Romans teaches that God has revealed Himself to every man, and everyone is without excuse. On the contrary; Jesus died for the sins of the world--but only those who respond to Almighty God will be saved. Does that makes sense? Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3329 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yen,
So now those of us who are defending the Gospel are going to end up in Hell, because of our pride? And how is that not salvation by works? Yen, of course my flesh is full of pride. Your flesh is full of pride. Everyone on this planet is full of pride. No one is going to get rid of their sinful flesh until they die or the Lord returns, whichever happens first. We are going to keep sinning (and yes, this includes "willful sin") until that time. We cannot be saved by our works, or by getting rid of our pride. Also, telling me that I am going to end up in Hell is somehow not "insulting"?
How is calling you to believe in the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus "beating you up"? Are you revealing "a holier-than-thou spirit of contention, pride, and downright hostility" when you tell me that I am going to end up in Hell? I will openly admit that I am "hostile" towards those who do not show that they are still trying to learn, who are preaching a false gospel, and who refuse correction. The Apostles such as Paul and John were pretty "hostile" towards such people as well. Why am I "hostile" towards such people? Because I deeply care about those who are "still learning to walk" as you say, who are just coming out of Adventism and need the pure Gospel and not some counterfeit that is no better than what they've had in Adventism. The things you interpret as "downright hostility" are actually written out of love for those reading the forum. Believe me, if I didn't care about those who post and read on this forum, I wouldn't bother posting anything, and I certainly would not get involved in confronting heresy, as it makes me very uncomfortable and many times I have to suffer greatly because of it. There was a man who came on the forum recently, preaching a false gospel of works salvation, who outright lied about his own beliefs regarding the gospel. Obviously this forum exists for people who are coming out of Adventism to learn the truth, not to tolerate those who are preaching heresy. (If you want to know what I'm talking about, or the proof for what I'm saying, feel free to e-mail me at contact@cultorchristian.com) Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 13, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3330 Registered: 10-2004 |
One more thing, Yen. Since you put us in the "plural" tense, and you acknowledged you weren't talking about Mary, I sure hope you're not including River in your derogatory remarks. He is one of the most loving and humble persons I know, and the sooner everyone on this forum realizes that the better. Jeremy P.S. Why don't you leave off these personal attacks, and stick to discussing beliefs/doctrines? (Message edited by jeremy on August 13, 2010) | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2009 |
This thread came to my mind this am as I read Gen 20 ESV about Abraham, Sarah, & Abimelech. Verse 3 says God came to him (Abimelech) in a dream & confronted him with taking another man's wife. v4 Abimelech asked "Lord will you kill an innocent people?" God's reply v 6 "I know you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me." v7 "But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." Yenc, it seems to me sort of like what you are saying, and it also seems to be like what Colleen is saying. In the end my take is that IT IS GOD who deals with us. All through the bible, God says I WILL DO IT. Yet Abimelech had a decision to make - what would his response be? It's hard to believe that every person in the world, has some sort of evidence & choice about trusting God. I personally have to decide & choose: either God is Good, or He isn't. Either He is love, or He isn't. God is fair & just, or He isn't. God is God & I am not. I can wrestle with ideas. Job wrestled & questioned - & didn't get any answers. The first time I heard that was a Joni Earickson talk - she a quadriplegic asking WHY? She said God never answered Job but rather asked him questions he couldn't answer & reminded Job that he wasn't God. I can read & ponder whatever people on this forum say. For me, I still take it to God & ask Him if these are His thoughts, His truth according to His Word; if He is teaching ME through what I read here. I have to be convinced in my own mind & must be able to give a reason for what I believe. J9 | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1102 Registered: 10-2008 |
Colleen, Let me clarify with you something ... pre-cross people placed their belief/trust in the Most High God ... and were saved ... such as Abraham, correct? I just read Daniel where it shows the progression of Nebechadnezzar's faith ... pagan king receives dreams, declares people to worship Jewish God and then in chapt. 4 He declares this God as his God (but not until that point - it was always Daniel's God, or Shadrach, Meshach's God,) ... ... post-cross ... Are you saying people today are saved by believing in God like pre-cross and don't need an understanding of Jesus? ... I'm thinking out loud ... My question above almost indicates my old understanding of the trinity. Now I understand one God in three persons. Yet, I'm trying to put it together with all the texts in the new testament about believing in Jesus to be saved (John 5:24; 1 John 5:11-13). Can you see what I'm trying to say? Is there a need to understand the role of Jesus post-cross? I agree ... a person doesn't need to articulate everything about Jesus as you mention above (I think of the example of saved Down Syndrome children, etc) ... Anyways, ... just wanting to clarify in my mind what is being said, and thinking out loud ... I don't want to be dogmatic  ... Keri P.S. I just recently finished a book called, "I Dared to Call Him Father" ... It is the true story of an Islamic woman who received dreams, was lead to Christian missionaries, Asked the missionaries who John the Baptist was (that was in one of her dreams), and came to receive Christ. It was all clearly the work of God drawing and revealing Himself to this woman. Very amazing story. God doesn't need us - we simply have the privilege of watching Him work and being obedient to Him. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6529 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: And some of the "proud" on this Forum, who seem to think they know everything and that they have the right to be insulting, will be shocked to find themselves somewhere else! Yen, if you take every one that disagrees with you as insulting, or proud, or know it all's, I just feel sorry for you. I am sure you spoke that in a time of anger, or precieved insult, or hurt. But disagreements in an atmosphere such as this are to be expected, and we have to lay it aside and let love take its course. I, for one do not agree with the principle you have put fourth here, but that doesn't mean I don't care for you, or that others who do not agree, do not care for you, and I don't see pride being displayed here. River | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm having a really difficult time with the thoughts being expressed regarding salvation without a knowledge of Jesus on this thread. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except by Me." John 14:6 Acts 4 says that there is NO other name by which we might be saved. The new covenant is Jesus! -not some vague god out there. We have talked at length on this forum about how Adventists have created a different Jesus from the one in the Bible. We have talked about how Adventists preach a different gospel. We have talked about how most Adventists are lost. We've discussed at length that some Adventists are saved within the system, but that it is in spite of and not because of the things they have learned. People have been called and sent by God and His people to show them truth. I have friends who work for Wycliffe translating the Bible into languages that haven't yet been written down. I met some people who have recently been called by God to go to the inner city. God seems to give one or two people in a culture a knowledge of Himself whether through missionaries, dreams or a direct encounter with Himself. It seems those people are entrusted with and equipped for the responsibilty of taking the knowledge of Jesus to the people. I believe with all my heart that everyone will have oppotunity to choose Jesus before they die or Jesus comes. We serve a just, loving and faithful God. Yen, I'm guessing I'm the one who is coming across as arrogant, prideful and unloving. That is not and was certainly never my intent. The new covenant and salvation through Jesus alone are pretty passionate topics for me right now. There is so much error out there. Please forgive me. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3334 Registered: 10-2004 |
I share your concerns, Keri and Joyfulheart. I am guessing that Colleen was in a hurry when she wrote her post, and didn't meant for it to sound like it does. Assuming that is the case, and I'll let you clarify, Colleen, I'll go ahead and address what you wrote:
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, '[...] And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'" (Acts 4:8, 12 NASB.) "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24) "They said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'" (Acts 16:31 NASB.) "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." (1 Corinthians 15:1-5 NASB.) No one can be saved apart from the Gospel. It is the Word that the Spirit uses to create faith in people and regenerate/convert/save them. Without the preaching of the Word of the Gospel, there is NO salvation. That is the crystal clear teaching of the New Testament. "But what does it say? 'THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART'--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:8-10 NASB.) "13for 'WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!'" (Romans 10:13-15 NASB.) This is so clear. You cannot be saved without believing in Jesus, and you cannot believe in Jesus without having heard about Him!! It cannot get any clearer. Those who have not heard about Him cannot be saved. "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17 NASB.) Faith only comes from hearing the word of Christ!! There is no other way! "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6 NASB.) "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, 'ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.' And this is the word which was preached to you." (1 Peter 1:23-25 NASB.) We can only be born again through the Word. I hope I have posted enough proof from God's Word. I know that we have come from a liberal background (SDA), but that doesn't give any of us the excuse to not believe what God's Word clearly teaches. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3335 Registered: 10-2004 |
Now, to address some of the other arguments posted on this thread: If every "sincere" person in the world is saved automatically, then what is the point in Christian evangelism? In fact, using the example earlier about the Native Americans, wasn't it wrong to evangelize them? Say there was a tribe of 1,000 indians, who were going to heaven already, and the white men came in and preached the Gospel to them and 500 of them rejected the Gospel. Then you've just sent 500 of the 1,000 people to Hell by preaching the Gospel to them ("giving them the light"), when otherwise they would have gone to heaven! Sounds like a terrible thing to me! Also, this theory of "salvation by living up to the light you have" does away with absolute truth completely. As for Romans 1, that passage does nothing to help the case of anybody. Romans 1 only condemns. Romans 1 only says that general revelation causes all men to be without excuse and condemned by God to an eternal Hell! General revelation never saved anybody. Only God's special revelation can do that. No one "seeks for God" (Romans 3:11, which I posted earlier). The Romans 1 passage does not show a person how to be saved, only how to be lost. Romans 2 does not show a person how to be saved, only how to be lost. The first part of Romans 3 does not show a person how to be saved, only how to be lost! Not until the second part of Romans 3 does Paul offer the solution, and tell us how to be saved. And that one way to be saved is made crystal clear, as I posted earlier in this thread: "21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:21-26 NASB.) The Justifier of whom? The one who has a sincere faith in Buddha? The one who has faith in "the Great Spirit"? NO! NO! A thousand times NO! "the one who has faith in JESUS"!!!! Whew! Have I said enough or should I keep on preachin'? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 14, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6534 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, So many people believe what gives them a warm fuzzy feeling, but the foundation of the church was not established on what gives us a warm fuzzy feeling. How long have we been fighting this sincerity clause thing now? Seems like forever. Will we have to do it over again? Yes, will the message change? No. Why? because the word will not change, nor will the Word pass away. Ever. River |
