| Author | Message | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2007 |
I am enjoying these new Bible Studies for Adventists by Colleen Tinker.I guess this type of review has never been done before? I am just wondering because i have a copy of the one done on the investigative judgement and would of loved to of seen some expert critique on that.Is there anywhere i can go to get help with that? I am excited about upcoming reviews on upcoming issues,keep up the great work Colleen! I also have a question about Daniel 8:14. I have long been convinced that Daniel 8:14 was a prophecy concerning Antiochus Epiphanes.Why do Adventists not believe this as most Christians do? Is there any proof that this is the proper interpretation? How can Adventists be refuted as to their claim? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 968 Registered: 7-2004  |
Besides the fact that Hebrews 6:19,20 plainly states Jesus has entered within the veil (shooting down the 1844 interpretation), there's an even better proof that Daniel 8 is much more likely referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. SDA's interpret the little horn power to be the pope, or Roman Catholicism. This is impossible, because the little horn in Daniel 8:21,22 arises from the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is the first king I think is Alexander the Great. Then the four horns that arose are the four generals of Alexander. Daniel 8:8,9 say the little horn came out of them, the four generals. According to history, Antiochus Ephiphanes came to power by murdering one of those four generals. I think the reason SDA's say Daniel 8's little horn is Roman Catholicism is because they equate the little horn from Daniel 7 out of the ten horns with the little horn from Daniel 8 out of the four horns. They must be two different little horns, describing entirely different events, because Daniel 8 clearly states the little horn trampling power that blasphemes God came directly from the kingdom of Greece. Here's a comparison of the two views (Greek versus Roman)that might explain support for either view. I see the weight of the evidence for Antiochus Epiphanes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel's_Vision_of_Chapter_8 (I can't get the link to post right - you will have to copy and paste it in your browser. Clicking on at as-is will bring you to a Daniel summary instead of the specific page I was trying to reference.) (Message edited by Raven on January 03, 2009) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1324 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jody, in addition to all Raven has said, the Jews believe Daniel's prophesy was fulfilled and that Antiochus Epiphanes was little horn, and it's their prophesy! I looked it up in Jewish Encyclopedia.com and it's in there. The story is also in book of Maccabees as well as the writings of Josephus which, as you know are a heck of a lot more ancient than Ellen's writings. Here's one of the entries on Antiochus at Jewish Encyclopedia - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1588&letter=A&search=Daniel%20Antiochus%20Epiphanes and there are others as well. As far as I know, prophesies can only come true once, and you can't steal prophesies either!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Spudw Registered user Username: Spudw Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2008  |
I've a question. I know that Jesus observed the Feast of Dedication (Hannukah)from John, Chapter 10. After a brief web search, it appears that at least several of the messianic Jewish organizations see the correlation between Hannukah, Antiochus Epiphanes and Daniel 8. Does Judaism view Antiochus as the fulfillment of Daniel 8? Did the Jews of Jesus' time see him as the fulfillment? | ||
| Spudw Registered user Username: Spudw Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2008 |
Well, I guess I'm a bit of a dolt. Leigh Anne cited the Jewish Encyclopedia in her post that the Jews believe that Antiochus was the little horn . Where could I find additional independent proof? Not that I doubt, I just want to verify from several sources that have no dog in this fight. (Message edited by spudw on January 03, 2009) | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thanks for the info everyone,i am goin to study this a bit,i am currently lookin over the Quarterly on the investigative judgement.Not that i am not already convinced that it is error but I want to be able to refute inside out and knowing Daniel 8 is of prime importance.This all looks like it will be helpful. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 430 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Jody, The article that had the most impact on me and made me believe the Investigative Judgment is pure hogwash is here: http://ellenwhiteexposed.com/2300.htm If you scroll down a bit there is a section called "The little horn of Daniel 8 is a king not an empire." There is some very good evidence from the Bible alone - not mere thought or presumption that 1. Rome could not possibly be the little horn of Daniel 8:14 - the main text Adventists use for the IJ and 2. That it was a single evil king - probably Antiochus Epiphanes. I believe Antiochus Epiphanes fits every detail given in the prophecy. Rome just doesn't fit. You might also be intersted in reading Raymond Cottrell's article on the IJ. It's long, but really good. You can find it here: http://truthorfables.com/Cottrell_IJ_Recollection.htm By the way, have you read Dale Ratzlaff's book Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists? It's clear and easy to read. I challenge anyone to believe in either Ellen White or the Investigative Judgment after reading it. There's tons of documentation there. It's a great book! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1325 Registered: 6-2006 |
Spud, you're not a dolt! The Jewish encyclopedia lists the Book of Maccabees and the writings of Josephus as giving additional information on Antiochus Epiphanes. Chris Lee wrote an excellent essay on the history of Hanukkah (Starring Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabees) here on facebook - http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/topic.php?uid=20496881896&topic=8838 Not sure if you're familiar with Josephus, but he was a Jewish historian completely apart from the Bible who wrote on Jewish subjects. He even mentioned Jesus in his writings. You can find any of this stuff online. LA | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 431 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hey Jody, I was just thinking about Jack Gent's testimony. In it, he quoted Clifford Goldstein, who wrote the quarterly on the IJ. It's powerful! These quotes are from Jack Gent's testimony at www.ex-sda.com "I am now reminded of Clifford Goldstein in his book, 1844 Made Simple. As a new convert to SDAism, approx. twenty years ago, he became aware of the widespread belief in church members that 1844 was not a spiritually important event in general and to Adventists in particular -- from the scholars to the members in the trenches. Doubts began to take hold of him and the importance of 1844 to the Adventist's structure became clear to his astute reasoning. But listen to his own words: 'But if 1844 is not biblical, our message is false -- we are a false church teaching a false message and leading people down a false path. Either 1844 is true and we have truth, or its false and we have inherited and pedaled lies.' 1844 Made Simple, p. 11. 'If 1844 is not biblical, Ellen White belonged in the same class as Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith ... I questioned the idea of Adventism as the remnant Church. If 1844 wasn't biblical, the church wasn't either. I began to wonder about just how important the law particularly the Sabbath was. I started to question -- even the mark of the beast!' Ibid., pp. 8, 9. Then after carefully studying the material of the church appointed "Daniel Committee," his faith resurged. Note his words: 'Instantly, all the doubt about Ellen White vanished. I thought, "Surely, that old woman knew exactly what she was talking about!" Since that time, I have never questioned Ellen White as a prophet; instead my confidence in the 1844 truth has allowed me to see her as one of the greatest prophets of them all.' Ibid., pp. 9, 10." Telling huh? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6240 Registered: 3-2004  |
I wonder what he read in the Bible to change his mind?? Diana | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2008 |
You also have to look at the year that Adventists say that this prophecy began... 457BC. Obviously this prophecy couldn't be about Papal Rome because the Catholic church didn't exist then. Also, 457BC is not the year that the Roman Empire began either... so how could this year be the beginning of the little horn (either papal or Roman empire) that causes the sanctuary to be thrown down? Look at the question at Dan. 8:13... Who is the host that is trampled for 2300 years that ends in 1844? ~vivian | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 506 Registered: 7-2005 |
For Raven, The single point that frustrates me in talking with Adventists about the identity of the little horn of Daniel 8 as being Antiochus IV is the period of 1150 days in which the temple was defiled by the little horn. The defilement of the Jerusalem temple under Antiochus IV took place for a period of 3 years, 1080 days. Adventists capitalize on the fact that the period does not perfectly fit Antiochus, and in their eyes this detail invalidates this intepretation. Have you met this objection and how did you answered it? Thanks, Gabriel (Message edited by Jackob on January 04, 2009) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 969 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jackob, No I haven't discussed the details with anyone enough for this to come up, but I have heard that it is an objection. In looking at the link posted above, I found this explanation of the Jewish calendar, which is different than our calendar. http://ellenwhiteexposed.com/2300.htm I wonder if that clears anything up. (For some reason they're saying it adds up to 2300 days when I think they mean it adds up to 2300 sacrifices which would be 1150 days - they don't show the math in detail enough to check it, and I'm not at all familiar with the Jewish calendar.)
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| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 970 Registered: 7-2004 |
This explanation was found through googling, at: http://thedaysofthunder.com/cgi/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21&sid=42d56e0e3bd28271eb43a0febd19bd88
Looks like it's really difficult for anyone not familiar with the Jewish calendar to understand it - another indication that prophecy was meant for the Jews and not for a much later time period involving people completely out of touch with its meaning. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 507 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hey, Raven That's the answer I looked for! Great, I'll check on other sources. It seems that the Adventists are playing on people's ignorance about the subject. Let's face it, we are not familiar with the Jewish calendar, and a lot of Adventism propaganda was based on such calculations. Remember the Day of Atonement calculation with the 22 October 1844. They played on people's ignorance and also on the difficulty of the subject. Thanks again, gabriel | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2008  |
Wrong Day, Wrong Month, Wrong Year, Wrong Event Where did the date of October 22, 1844 come from? Miller taught 457 B.C. marked the beginning of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, but gave no specific month or day. After being disappointed in 1843 and again in the spring of 1844, Ellen White and her friends settled on the event and date of the Jewish Day of Atonement (the 10th of Tishri) as marking the end of the 2300 days. They believed God had revealed to S. S. Snow that the 10th of Tishri would occur on October 22 in 1844. The fact is, that in 1844, the Jewish Day of Atonement began at sunset on September 23 — not October 22! (See The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, © 1939, volume 2, pages 636 and 637). I never knew this !!!! They even had the WRONG month and day And yet EGW blessed Oct 22, 1844..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: EGW "The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord's coming. This was in harmony with the proofs already presented that the 2300 days would terminate in the autumn ... the close of the 2300 days in the autumn of 1844, stands without impeachment." — The Great Controversy, pp. 400, 457 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wonder why this fact has been so conviently omitted from their pulpits and sabbath school quarterlies..ha ha ha.....Guess it is easier to deny a mistake rather then admit the truth huh?? Animal | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2008 |
Animal couldnt resist posting this song again.. The year was 1844 and something was astir Because the plucky Millerites thought big things would occur But when they woke the morning of October 23 They all were disappointed and the cause was clear to see The flock had played the numbers game and got the math all wrong And now two cent’ries later we remember with this song That if you need a certain way to flee the coming wrath Then get a guy who knows his stuff before you do the math Or better yet don’t set a date for when things should occur And don’t tell anyone your thoughts no matter if you’re sure Oh spare a thought for Miller while remembering his plight For it was he who led the flock that cold October night The legacy he left behind still haunts us to this day Though many wish the numbers thing would simply go away For now instead of saying that the earth was being cleansed We got the funny notion that the Judgment had commenced Initiated by the King’s decree, 457 starting Then add in seven decades to the true prophetic charting Subtract 490 from 2 thousand and 3 hundred Which takes you right up to the end of days divinely numbered Oh yes, of course, how silly that we never saw before… Investigative Judgment starts in 1844 For if you know prophetically a day is like a year The Sanctuary Doctrine, then, quite readily appears And with the Prophet’s blessing we are certain that it’s true Though other Bible scholars still don’t have the slightest clue Which means that it’s our duty to proclaim it to the rest To prove that we’re the Remnant whose theology is best. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1567 Registered: 4-2000  |
Interestingly, something of historical significance really did happen in 1844 after all--Joseph Smith was murdered at the young age of 39. It took Ellen White 49 more years than Joseph Smith to accomplish similar organized heresy. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2007 |
Animal Your song fits the tune of "Sink The Bizmark" by Johnny Horton. How appropriate | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9219 Registered: 12-2003  |
 I love this group's humor—including Dennis's understatement, "It took Ellen White 49 more years than Joseph Smith to accomplish similar organized heresy." Colleen |
