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Archive through March 15, 2009Philharris20 3-15-09  10:23 am
Archive through March 16, 2009Tkmommy20 3-16-09  7:08 pm
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Archive through March 23, 2009Brian320 3-23-09  6:54 am
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Mommyk
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Post Number: 259
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that the Law is the Law. God gave Israel every commandment to set them apart as a holy nation from all the heathen nations around them. Every law was to SET THEM APART! We, the Church are not the nation of Israel. But we are set apart because we have Christ IN US....you can't get much more holy than that! HE is the LAW in our hearts that we follow!!!

~Kristen
Dennis
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Post Number: 1634
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian

The civil, judicial, and ritual laws of Moses (by their own descriptive purpose) depict a distinct difference and separate purpose from a moral law (i.e., having no other gods, honoring one's parents, etc.). The Jews had to precisely know the distinct difference between these various laws because of the way they were designed to be utilized. Yes, you are correct that BOTH the Sabbath and circumcision laws are ceremonial or ritual. Since the weekly Sabbath is regarded by SDAs as a moral law, I cited this example to reveal that moral laws were NEVER trumped. For example, none of the other nine commandments in the Decalogue were ever trumped by any law for any reason (only the fourth commandment was repeatedly trumped by required circumcision on the eighth day, sacrifices, etc.).

In other words, by divine intent, ceremonial laws by their very nature often trump each other. In contrast, moral laws cannot take a vacation or a break ever--not even momentarily. Also, moral laws are not shadows pointing to the Cross like the Sabbath was. Nothing can change them. Yes, Jesus amplified various moral laws but the basic law itself was never abrogated (i.e., adultery is still adultery despite its expansion to one even thinking about it being sinful; same with the other moral laws that Jesus further amplified). Jesus is not a law or a commandment Himself as some suggest.

Yes, Jesus gives commandments or pronouncements, but He is not a commandment Himself--such thinking borders on being sacrilegious. It depreciates the holiness of the Lawgiver Himself. The Bible nowhere depicts Jesus as a "commandment." The Holy Spirit likewise is not a "commandment." The phrase "law of Christ" refers to the Gospel, not some new, separate list of rules and regulations. Truly, the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into righteousness (right doing) or into obedience to God's moral directives. The indwelling Spirit is given to empower us to obey God's revealed will, and to make us more and more like Christ, the archetypal law-keeper (Matt. 5:17). There is certainly nothing wrong with being or becoming a mature or seasoned Christian. There is not such a person as a "carnal" Christian as was taught by one seminary in the 1980s. Maturing in Christ is not the same as the slavery of perfectionism and legalism. Indeed, God desires that we give Him our very best praise and service.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit inspired the many, written prohibitions against sinful practices in the New Testament. Obviously, these extensive lists of ethical standards in the New Testament are meant for all believers to uphold today. Neither Jesus nor the indwelling Spirit counters or contradicts any of the ethical pronouncements found in sacred Scripture. Moreover, the indwelling Spirit most certainly doesn't make us reticent in upholding the ethical teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The Bible is God's voice speaking to us!

Dennis Fischer
Dennis
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SAD NEWS

It is my understanding that the single-engine plane that nose-dived into a cemetery in Butte, Montana yesterday that resulted in 14 deaths (three families) were all Seventh-day Adventists. Perhaps others on this forum know more details about this terrible tragedy. The flight supposedly originated in Redlands, CA. These families were looking forward to a skiing vacation in Montana. Some reports indicate that perhaps the plane was overloaded.

Dennis Fischer
Jeremiah
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Post Number: 432
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Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last Sunday morning was the one day in the last couple of years or so when my car refused to start. I would have driven to Butte for church like normal and probably been shopping at Walmart very close to where and when the crash happened. My car not starting probably means approximately nothing and is mere coincidence. It can easily be explained by the extreme humidity in the air that morning and that I hadn't run the car for a couple of days prior. I think I am the forum member who lives closest to where the crash happened, in any case.

Jeremiah
Martinc
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Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They seem to be moving away from the overload theory. Perhaps the same high humidity prevented your car from starting, as well as icing on the wings of the airplane. "...the plane passed through a layer of air at about 1,500 feet that was conducive to icing because the temperatures were below freezing and the air 'had 100 percent relative humidity or was saturated,' according to AccuWeather.com." Yahoo News
Tkmommy
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Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The three families consisted of three sets of parents and their children ages 1 -9. All six parents were PUC and /or LLU alumni(medical, dental, dental hygiene, nursing) and in their mid to late 30's. Very sad. I have several friends who were close to at least one family if not all three. We are very heavy hearted about it.
Mommyk
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Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so sad.....

Even more sad is the owner of the plane (the father of the two women / grandfather of the children) is the owner of the largest abortion provider chain in the country. The plane crashed in the catholic cemetery where there is a memorial to the unborn who died from abortions.

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/646579835.html
Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mommyk,

Is the owner of the plane, who owns the abortion clinic chain, also a Seventh-day Adventist?

Dennis Fischer
Jeremy
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Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Yes, according to the Adventist Review, "Feldkamp is a member of the Azure Hills Seventh-day Adventist Church." (See http://www.adventistreview.com/article.php?id=2484)

Jeremy
Cathy2
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Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read the Christian News article. It certainly gives one a sober pause..."...bloodshed will follow you."

One can get disfellowshipped from the Adventist church for smoking, drinking, not paying tithe or not keeping sabbath--but not disfellowshipped when one does infant blood sacrifice for profit.

I am sick, just sick. And angry.

Cathy
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 6688
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Posted on Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As much as I dislike abortion I am not focusing on that part of Feldkamp. This man lost his 2 daughters, 2 sons in law and grandchildren and that is very sad. I am praying that God comfort him at this time.
Diana L
Dennis
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Post Number: 1637
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Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

Thanks for the link. Not surprisingly, I noticed that the official Adventist news editors gave a sanitized version of the business enterprises of the owner of the crashed plane. Ironically, the plane crashed near the Tomb of the Unborn.

Dennis Fischer
Brian3
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Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, I agree with you the man needs our prayers at this time especially.

Dennis, Conspicuous by it's absence wasn't it?

In Christ,
Brian
Dennis
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In an attempt to avoid eating out on Saturdays, some Seventh-day Adventists are trying to avoid such sins (smile). Perhaps, as former Adventists, we should provide the following link to our Adventists friends who we see regularly in restaurants on Saturdays.

www.sabbathdinner.org

Dennis Fischer
Philharris
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Post Number: 1466
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Are you suggesting that I should go to the local SDA church and invite them over for their Sabbath dinner? What with the diet my wife and I are on, we wouldn't have to change very much. Well ok, I guess I might have to hide the bacon bits and the pork loin. And, there will be no soy based products in our home except maybe a little soy sauce for the stir fry.

Of course, I might just invite the rabbi who inspects our plant for compliance to the kosher rules and let someone explain why Adventist rules are so different from the Hebrew guidelines.

Phil
Indy4now
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Phil~

I know this is probably a stupid question... but I'm curious... what are the differences between Adventist and Hebrew guidelines?

~vivian
Philharris
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Post Number: 1470
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vivian,

Well, for starters, the Jews eat meat and drink wine and know very well that there is alcohol in it. Also, the rabbi who inspects our plant and certifies our product as 'kosher' has standards that Adventist don't seem to know anything about.

Related but not about food is the topic of the Day of Atonement...in 1844 it is totally different from what William Miller came up with and what Adventist preach. Since the Bible delagates how to determine the start of the Hebrew New Year, and thus, the correct day to celabrate the various feasts, including the Day of Atonement, it is a simple matter to turn to scripture and prove that Ellen made false statements on this topic.

P.S. The Hebrew New Year is tied the ripening of the Barley harvest in Israel. As such, no one knows more than a year ahead what day is what. In any case, it did not occur on Oct. 22 in 1844.

Phil
Indy4now
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Post Number: 454
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Phil~

funny you say that "the rabbi who inspects our plant and certifies our product as 'kosher' has standards that Adventist don't seem to know anything about." ... I remember that my dad used to buy the Kosher Hebrew National products because they were simply "OK". He thought the linkets were best and then the "kosher" products came in second. It was always a treat when he felt compelled to buy the Hebrew National products. :-) yummm... they are still the only hotdog I'll buy.

So do Adventists think that not even the Jews really understand the "true" biblical way to eat?

~vivian
Indy4now
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Post Number: 455
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

p.s. that whole 1844 fiasco is really the "thorn" as Dale Ratzlaff described it in his book (... the Cultic Doctrine, which is a great book). The only way to "validate" that "truth" is if you believe that EGW is a "prophet".
Brian3
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Post Number: 206
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Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found this interesting in relation to 1844. I wonder what would happen if a preserved copy of Daniel was found what would happen to the SDA Church?

----------------------------------------------------
(Found on the web)

quote:

THE NUMBER SHOULD BE 2200

It may surprise some Seventh-day Adventists to learn that, although the author of their book, "Thoughts on Daniel," has quoted Dr.Hales to prove that there is no number in the Bible whose genuineness is better ascertained than that of the 2,300 days, that it is by no means true that 2,300 is the correct number.

When Jesus was on earth, He quoted from the Septuagint or Greek translation by the LXX, as also did His disciples after him, and yet in that translation (Vatican MSS) the number is given as 2400.

If Jesus had attached the importance to the 2,300 days (or "evening-morning") that the Adventists do, He no doubt would have called attention to the discrepancy, but He knew that these days (or "evening-morning") had passed and could have no serious effect upon the future - hence His silence.

Then, too, some of the older copies of the book of Daniel, noticed by the great scholar and translator of the Vulgate, Jerome, give the number as "2,200 evening morning," which is perhaps correct, as the oldest manuscripts are without question more true to the original.

Clearly, then, Seventh-day Adventists are out of joint with the prophecy in every particular.

The difference in figures noted above is the fault of copyists, who never claimed inspiration and were never credited with being inspired. The figures 2,200 appearing in the oldest manuscripts, have greater claim to our acceptance, particularly so, in as much as the actual historical occurrences fit these figures ("2200") to a nicety - We are furnished with the exact time or date when the desolation of the sanctuary and abolition of the daily, evening and morning sacrifices took place, as follows:

On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the one hundred forty-fifth year (of the Selucid era, or 168 B. C.), they set up the abomination of desolation on the altar (1 Mac. 1:54).


On that date the temple was desecrated, an altar and the statue of Jupiter Olympius set up, displacing the worship of Jehovah and putting an end to the Jewish evening and morning sacrifices.

Ten days later, on the 25th of Casleu, the sacrifices to Jupiter began and the temple was sprinkled with the broth of swine's flesh.

In 1 Mac. 4:52-54, we find the date when the temple service was resumed after its cleansing. We read:

Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month of Casleu, in the hundred and forty-eighth year [B.C. 165], they rose up betimes in the morning and offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made.


Look at what time and what day the heathen had profaned it, even in that it was dedicated with songs, and citherns, and harps and cymbals. Josephus also bears witness to these dates, as follows:

This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apelleus (Casleu), and on the hundred fifty and third Olympiad: but was dedicated anew on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apelleus (Casleu), on the hundred forty-eighth year and on the hundred and fifty-fourth Olympiad, and this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before: for he declared that the Macedonians (Greeks) would dissolve the worship [for some time] (Antiquities 12, 7, 6).


He speaks in another place thus:

And that from among them [the four horns of the rough goat] there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation, and should take away their political government and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifice to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to "Daniel's vision and what he wrote years before they came to pass" (Antiquities 10, 11, 7).


The Jews did not reckon time by the sun, but counted each new moon as the beginning of their religious month.

Watchers were appointed to notice the first appearance of the new moon, and as soon as it was observed, trumpets were blown at the temple and fires were lighted upon eminences. These months consisted of 29 1/2 days, or as they counted, 29 days in one month and 30 in the next.

Their religious year of 12 months consisted of 354 days and to equalize their time with the solar year, they added an intercalary month of 29 days every three years.

It will be observed that Josephus counts three years from the time the heathen sacrifice began in the temple of the Lord until the sanctuary was cleansed and the morning and evening sacrifices were again resumed; but according to Judas Maccabees, before quoted, the Jewish sacrifices were set aside ten days before the heathen sacrifices began (1 Mac. 1:543), so to get the correct time, we must count three years and ten days.

Let us do some figuring:

Three years of 354 days each, equal ...1062 days. One intercalary month ...29 days. From 15th to 25th of Casleu...10 days. Total time ...1101 days.

This included the 25th day of Casleu, which was the day that the daily evening and morning sacrifices were resumed, after the cleansing, hence it is necessary to deduct this one day, as the abolition of sacrifices and desecration were brought to an end the preceding day (24th) and the sacrifices were resumed the 25th day. This makes our total just 1100 days. Counting two sacrifices each day, one evening and one morning, we multiply 1100 times 2 and see that 2200 sacrifices were abolished.

This harmonizes with the prophecy and is in accord with the older versions seen by Jerome as well as with the reckoning of Josephus, and this establishes the fact that the more correct rendering of the text would be:

"...Unto two thousand and two hundred evening morning (sacrifices) then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."



JOSEPHUS CLEARS THE RECORD OF DANIEL 8:14

It is very evident that what Josephus says of Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel in desecrating the temple and abolishing the morning and evening sacrifices for three years, is established beyond peradventure of doubt, and that he resorted to the oldest manuscripts obtainable. This should settle any discussion or question as to the time period of Daniel 8:14. It is unimpeachable evidence that the correct rendering is "2200 days," or "evening and morning" (sacrifices) and NOT "2300," as our King James version gives it.

We have diligently searched the writings of Josephus and among other evidence substantiating the conclusions herein set forth, we find Josephus saying:

Now that Scripture which is laid up in the temple, informs us... (Antiquities, Book 3, Ch.1, end of last part).


And again, he says:

I have translated the Antiquities out of our sacred books; which I easily could do, since I was a priest by birth, and have studied that philosophy which is contained in those writings (Against Apion, Par. 10).


Commenting further as to the holy books (Scripture), to which he had access, Josephus says that these ancient manuscripts fell into his own possession following the destruction of Jerusalem; that they were presented to him by Titus. He says:

Moreover, when the city of Jerusalem was taken by force, Titus Caesar persuaded me frequently to take whatever I would of the ruins of my country, and said that he gave me leave so to do; but when my country was destroyed, I thought nothing else to be of any value which I could take and keep as a comfort under my calamities; so I made this request to Titus, that my family might have their liberty: I had also the holy books by Titus's concession (Life of Josephus, written by himself. Whiston's Josephus, p. 35).


The "holy books" referred to in this quotation, comprised the whole of what we now call the Old Testament; for proof of which see Flavius Josephus against Apion, Whiston's Josephus, Bk.1, Par.7.

Thus it appears that Josephus not only had access to the oldest Scriptures, while the temple was standing, but actually owned them after the destruction of Jerusalem. These were the very Scriptures which were in use in the temple at Jerusalem in the time of Christ and these gave the reading of the time period in Daniel 8:14 as "2200 evening morning;" of this there can be no question.

In view of all the evidence presented, even the most skeptical must be convinced that Daniel 8:14 should properly read:

"...Unto two thousand two hundred evening morning (sacrifices), then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"


Josephus was an honorable man and a scholar, a firm believer in the inspiration of the Jewish Scriptures of which he said in his writings against Apion "which are justly believed to be divine," and then he tells us that the temple was desecrated for three years and of these three years, that:

Indeed it so came to pass that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision and what he wrote years before they came to pass.


We would be foolish indeed to suppose that he tried to fit three years into 2300 days - we would be obliged to question the intelligence and honesty of a wonderful scholar and the best Jewish historian who ever lived, and knowing that he took his reckoning from history less than two hundred years in the past and compared it with the very Scriptures used in the Jewish temple at Jerusalem in the time of Christ, such imputation would only prove our own ignorance, therefore it remains a settled and proven fact that 2200, and not 2300, is the correct number in Daniel 8:14


In Christ,
Brian
Joyfulheart
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Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brian, that was profound.

You know, about 1844, even the dates THEY give in the seminars don't work.

They teach in their infamous session on Daniel 2 that Babylon existed from 606-538 BC
Medo-Persia from 538-331 BC
Greece 331 - 166 BC
Rome from 166BC - 458AD

(I hope I still have the dates right. The elder I was studying with drilled them into me for weeks.)

Then in Daniel 8 (in the 1844 session) they manipulate all kinds of numbers to get to 457 and then to 1844 for the 2300 days.

What they don't get is that one thing in Daniel 8 follows another.

This quote is only slight changed from this article.

http://ellenwhiteexposed.com/2300.htm

I highly recommend it. I challenge anyone to believe in 1844 as the fulfillment of the 2300 days after reading it. SDA dates don't work!

And another pet peeve of mine (looooong story!) is that the little horn in Daniel 7 cannot possibly be the same as the little horn in Daniel 8 for the same reasons! (There I feel better now. :-))

" One who reads the entire chapter cannot fail to see one event following another:

*The rise of the 'great horn' (Alexander) comes first
*He rules for a time, and is 'broken'
*His empire is divided into four new empires
*The 'little horn' comes on the scene AFTER this division

One event is dependent upon another, and we can follow the course of these events through history. Now, consider the following chronology carefully:

*Alexander died in 323 BC
*Alexander's kingdom was divided in 301 BC
*The little horn could not have come on the scene until AFTER 301 BC!

How could the little horn be desecrating the Sanctuary in 457 BC when the prophecy does not even show it arising until after 301 BC?"

You know there were really smart people in my SDA church. Many were doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers etc. It just blows me away at how they can read this stuff and teach it without seeing anything wrong. They don't ever really study it. I suppose they can't - yet they say it is truth the world needs to know. If the church teaches it, it must be right. It is so frustrating!

I know I've posted this link before.

I posted it again for the new people who might not have seen it yet. I believe it's one of the most important articles online for SDAs and formers to read.

If this article is true, the most important Adventist doctrine falls. Ellen White taught it from vision.

If this article is right - Ellen White is a false prophet.

If this article is right, nothing happened in 1844 and there was absolutely no basis for William Miller and his movement. He was a false prophet as well. Fortunately, I think he repented before he died.

Ellen White and the other Millerites followed a false prophet, justified false teaching and began a church based on that foundation.

That is the churchthat claims to be God's remnant people - God's favorites.

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