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Jeremy
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Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

"When Jesus was awakened to meet the storm, He was in perfect peace. There was no trace of fear in word or look, for no fear was in His heart. But He rested not in the possession of almighty power. It was not as the 'Master of earth and sea and sky' that He reposed in quiet. That power He had laid down, and He says, 'I can of Mine own self do nothing.' John 5:30. He trusted in the Father's might. It was in faith--faith in God's love and care--that Jesus rested, and the power of that word which stilled the storm was the power of God." (The Desire of Ages, page 336, paragraph 1.)




Just some more blasphemy from The Desire of Ages that I came across...

Jeremy
Snowboardingmom
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Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow... "He trusted in the Father's might..." So this Jesus couldn't calm the storm without having to rest in the faith of "God's love and care"? Kind of wimpy compared to the Jesus of the Bible, wouldn't you say?

Mark 4:39 says, "And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, 'Hush, be still.' And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm."

I remember when Pastor Gary preached on Mark 4:35-41, he specifically pointed out the fact that Jesus did not pray to His Father to calm the storm. He spoke on His own authority, and as a result the disciples grew very afraid. Vs. 41, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?"

Quite a different picture from The Desire of Ages scenario.

Grace

(Message edited by snowboardingmom on March 29, 2009)
Jeremy
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Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly.

Also, notice that she says that Jesus had "laid down" His power, and that it was instead the "power of God" that calmed the storm!

Her Jesus is certainly not God!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on March 29, 2009)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Jeremy--and this is the Desire of Ages that is said to much more "orthodox" than her earlier works.

Ellen White NEVER believed in the eternally sovereign Lord Jesus in whom all things are held together. Never.

And when people argue that the official SDA doctrine is orthodox, I want to say, "Wait a minute! Doesn't it even matter to anyone what we LEARNED as Adventists? Doesn't it matter to anyone what the 'continuing an authoritative source of truth' actually says?"

We all exited Adventism with a reduced Jesus who did not fully posses the power of God--and certainly had none of that power on earth. As Grace pointed out, Jesus calmed that storm on His own authority.

Who was she copying, anyway? Whoever was compiling her information totally failed to check the literal words of the Bible...

Colleen
Jrt
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 3:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am crying . . . oh, I am crying . . .

Yesterday, in church, the teaching leader of my Adult Bible study group - a couple of weeks ago told the group that SDA's believe Jesus is the Son of God. Sorry, I don't have time to post much at the moment . . .

An experience - so like being spiritually abused happened yesterday in church that I'm reeling from it . . . and sometimes I wonder if I'm overreacting . . .

And yes, it had partly to do with what you are saying above - Jesus was fully God . . .

I have to go, but I will write more later.

Keri
Jrt
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 5:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will post at a later time - possibly (it may be in the member section) . . . I realize my post above is nebulous, lets just say the thread touched me deeply with something that happened in an adult Bible Study group this Sunday.

Thank you for the initial post Jeremy and the comments afterwards.

Keri
Seekinglight
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 6:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't want to be argumentative at all, but I have a question. How do you interpret John 5:19, John 10:18, John 14:8-14 & Phil 2:5-8?

Although the Holy Spirit is at work in my heart, I feel I still have the SDA "filters" in place when I read scripture. Here it sounds as if Jesus willingly gave at least some aspect of his power to the Father--at least temporarily--when He came to earth.... And I have always been taught that was so He could be our example of how we should depend on Him to meet our needs.

I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks much!
Jeremy
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Seekinglight,

Here's a link to a post where I made some comments on the John 5 passage: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8139.html#POST107461

And here is some very good commentary on John 5:19: http://www.biblestudiesforadventists.com/2009/quarter1/week8/sabbathschool3.html

Also, the following is a good summary of the Philippians 2 passage from the Christian Research Institute: http://www.equip.org/perspectives/the-kenosis

Jeremy
Seekinglight
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Jeremy, for helping me undo my SDA thinking.

I just want to read the Bible the way it was meant to be understood, and it's still very, very confusing right now. Like Colleen said somewhere else, the truth confuses SDAs when they're confronted with it for the first time. Wow, is that ever the case with me! I'm determined to keep slowly plodding along, and I think these references will help in this process.

Anyone else, please feel free to chime in with your discoveries from the Bible on this topic....
Seekinglight
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whoa, all of this is hitting me like a ton of bricks. So Jesus was NOT our example of how to depend on God in our day-to-day life?

I've accepted Him as my Savior, so He's living inside me now. Thus that dependence concept really doesn't make sense. How do I depend on His strength to live the Christian life when He's already doing all that thru me?

So here are 2 more questions:

1. In what aspects is Jesus my example for living?
2. What aspects is He NOT my example for living?

*befuddled...*
Akweavers
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 5:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That quote makes me sick. I used to say "I can't make it to heaven anyway so why try?" If Jesus came as a human and lived perfect we should be able to. Right? Well, I knew I couldn't. So I comforted myself in the fact that I would probably burn up really quick and it would all be over. It's hard to get to heaven when you don't have a real God as your Savior isn't it? Thank you Jesus for showing me that I am saved already through You alone and nothing I can do or have ever done expect claiming you as my Savior.
Jrt
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 5:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seekinglight,
I wrote quite a post last night - and promptly, accidentally deleted it. So I went to bed :-).

This morning in an interdenominational Bible Study notes I read a couple of texts and thought of you and your question.

These were the verses:

quote:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb. 12:1,2




You see my "living" now is looking to Jesus (Numbers 21:8,9; John 3:14,15 - Looking to Jesus is how we are healed and live today), and the sin which clings so closely will be delt with by Him.

Sometimes I'm convicted of something - never condemned (Rom. 8:1). The difference between the "feelings" between what Satan may try to do and the Holy Spirit - I am convicted by the Holy Spirit, but I am condemned by Satan. Satan is the "accuser of the brethren", the Holy Spirit convicts me and disciplines me. There is a different "feel" between conviction and condemnation.

The other verse I came across is:

quote:

And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6




Who is going to bring it to completion? He who started the work. God finishes what He begins - unlike us humans.

Lastly, I feel a little uncomfortable with the word, "example" in your question. It feels too much like EGW. Jesus is not my example. He is my Lord, Savior, and my Sovereign King. Even while He was on earth. He saved me - I rest in His work and now He works in me as I look to Him. Sounds too good to be true, huh!

Oh, one last thought and take it for what it is worth :-) . . . Since I have the Holy Spirit (the fullness of God) living in me . . . at any given moment I might be impressed about something - something to say, or do, or not do, or . . . So I listen inside and that is how I live - that is how I now live in the spirit (Romans 8:9-11 and Rom. 8:1-12 is good). The Holy Spirit communicating with me - with my spirit.

Blessings my friend as God completes His good work in you - Rest in His work that He is doing in and through you.

Blessings,
Keri
Seekinglight
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Keri. I don't like the word "example" either, but many Christians (non-SDA) use it also. They talk about Jesus being our example or we should emulate Him in our relationships, the way we treat others, etc. But, even that sounds like a lot of work. I like the ideas of rest and listening to Him much better :-) You're right, it's almost too good to be true.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seekinglight, the thing Adventists get so wrong about Jesus as our example is they use the "example" of Jesus to demonstrate how we become Christ-like.

Jesus was alive spiritually. We are born dead. We cannot follow Jesus' example to become like Him. Doing as He did will not give us life.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus raised the bar for "righteous behavior". But He was not telling people how to be good enough to please God. Rather, He was revealing what true righteousness would look like, and this sort of righteousness would only be possible if they were spiritually alive. He was revealing what a born-again life would be able to begin to experience.

The only sense in which Jesus is our example is that He showed us how a spiritually alive person lives. He said He did nothing except that which His Father told Him to do. He said nothing except that which His Father told Him to say.

Jesus' "example" to us is not healing the sick, raising the dead, preaching the gospel...although those are things God's people are equipped to do when He gifts them. The true essence of Jesus' example is that, after we have been made alive, we submit our entire life and work and dreams and desires and words and time and self to Him as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), and we do what God reveals to us through His word and through His conviction.

Jesus' example is only that of revealing how a spiritually alive person submits to the Father through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit who gives us His life.

Colleen
Bb
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Jesus was alive spiritually. We are born dead. We cannot follow Jesus' example to become like Him. Doing as He did will not give us life."


Wow Colleen, that was so unbelievably wonderful! I have never heard it like that before! I absolutely think if adventists could just "get" that concept, they might be able to understand. I really, really needed to hear that just to finally "get it". Thank you.

I do have a question that has been bugging me. I think it is related to this thread. Keri quoted Hebrews about "Jesus being the perfector of our faith". I reread your article from Proclamation the other day regarding ellen white and if she had changed over the years.

Here is my question...what do adventists (and ellen) mean when they say by "faith" they can keep the commandments. I saw that she said that twice in your article, and I have heard it all my life. What is faith to an adventist? Faith that God will perfect you? It seems to me that the faith they are talking about is just about a polar opposite of true Christian faith in the shed blood of Jesus. I guess it just sounds like another word they use that sounds "Christian" but in reality is not even close. Am I on the right track with this?
Seekinglight
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So is that hymn "I would be like Jesus" an SDA hymn? kinda sounds like it could be...
Honestwitness
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 4:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb, to answer your question, my SDA hubby says that, just as the corn in the ear is still immature, so are we humans still immature. But just as God brings the corn to maturity, so He will bring us to maturity.

In either state, whether immature or mature, the corn is still perfect, because it's God's work. And if the corn is cut down before it is fully mature, it is still perfectly formed, according to God's plan and timing, at the point it was cut down.

I think what hubby is inferring here is that, if we die or the Lord comes back before we are fully mature, God will still consider us perfect, according to His plan and His timing.

I have always felt hubby's analysis is the correct response to Adventism's conundrum of us having to be perfect before Jesus returns or before we die. It shows ultimate faith in God as the Author and Perfecter of our faith and works.

I have heard hubby explain this to Adventists during Bible studies and Sabbath School classes several times. It always seems to calm their anxieties.

Honestwitness
Philharris
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 5:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb and Honestwitness,

In response to the theme of the maturity of our faith and to add my amen to your posts:

My brother died at age four (I was six) with a total trust in Jesus as his Savior. In the example of the 'growing corn', he was fully mature. He certainly didn't know a whole lot about theology, there was no time for that stuff. Well over sixty years have gone by yet my faith in Jesus is no greater than his was.

We have the example of 'the thief on the cross' as an example of our maturity in Christ.

Phil
Animal
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 6:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Phil..I agree completely.

Theology isnt what we need.

We need Christ, plain and simple. Theology only complicates our faith. Let our faith be simple so it may shine brightly and draw others to Christ.


Animal...keep it simple and God will be glorified !!!!!
Agapetos
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bb & Seekinglight,

I think Phil & HW said it really well. I'll piggyback on what they said by saying that our "position" in following Christ's example is really important:

quote:

But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus...

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, gAbba, Father!h Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

- Galatians 3:23-4:7

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

- Ephesians 5:1-2

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! ... Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

- 1st John 3:1-3


The position that we "follow" Christ from now is not one of attaining salvation, not one of one day maturing enough to be saved or save-able. Christ is not our "tutor", so to speak. He is our Savior. He is the One who has made us children of God.

The position that we live in, follow in, and obey God in is the position as one of His children, one of His saved, sealed & adopted children. We're in His house. (Actually, we are His house! Our bodies are His temple!) We are free to grow, just like a child is free to learn, grow and obey his or her parents without fear of being cast out of the house because of imperfect performance.

The point of our "maturity" and "growth" is on a different track than the point of our salvation & adoption. Our justification & sanctification are on different tracks, so to speak. But yet, both proceed from Christ Himself and in Christ Himself. Both are in Him:

quote:

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

- Galatians 2:19-20


The way that we "follow Christ" and "live for Him" is by dying to the law and letting Him simply live out His life within us. There is a hymn that says it well:

quote:

Live out Thy life within me
O Jesus, King of Kings
Be Thou Thyself the answer
To all my questionings


And it occurs to me now, also, that the "perfection" spoken of is not a perfection of action or deed, but rather Christ is the pefector of our faith. Isn't that interesting? The bottom line is not "law" and "perfect obedience", but rather faith.

In Adventism the whole "example" thing is not only over-stressed, it is a salvational matter. But on the whole, in mainstream Christianity it is also misrepresented. It is not usually "salvational" (sometimes it is, but not usually), but "Christ-likeness" is still over-stressed and seen through the lenses of the Law instead of the lenses of faith.

Hence, you have things like the WWJD fad -- "What would Jesus do?" -- which look to Jesus as the example, and which see the bottom line as being actions, obedience, and in effect, Law. Most tellingly, evangelicals tend to stress "Christlikeness" the most when talking about evangelism. The manner of helping others come to know Christ is still seen in terms of perfection of action & law-obedience. The result of this emphasis is that much of the world (if not most of it) thinks of Christians as unapproachable "Holier-than-thous" or hypocrites.

It betrays that a lot of us Christians (likely most of us) still look at "grace" as a path to keeping the law -- that "faith" came in order to help us obey the tutor better, so to speak. Hey, I fall into this thinking naturally, too, by the way! We don't realize that our message is not perfection or some magic way to be perfect. Our message is not that the Spirit will indwell us for the purpose of making us law-keepers. Instead our message is grace. Our message is that Christ has done it for us already! And now, as children of God, we can be free to grow up looking up to Daddy, growing up as His child.

The "perfection" of the New Testament is spoken in terms of faith and love. Not sinlessness. Sin isn't good and we've got to ask for His help getting rid of it in our lives, but the gospel is not about sin-management... and if we make the gospel just about that, we'll keep fighting a losing battle while trying to appear holier and happier -- and the world sees right through that (often a lot clearer than we do).

The perfection of the NT is a perfection of faith -- of trusting in God no matter what -- and a perfection of love -- of letting Him love through us and choosing His love instead of choosing what we rationalize as being "justice" for ourselves. What speaks best to the unbelieving world is those very two things -- faith and love -- because it is in these two things that they've got huge holes in their hearts. These are things that the world cannot give, but that can only be found in God.

And, often these things come out best through the cracks of our weaknesses, our trials, our tribulations, our brokennesses, our "falls from grace", so to speak. We try to cover up our weaknesses and present what we think are our "strengths" to the world (our good behavior, etc.). But our "strengths" aren't really strengths, so the world sees our frequent failures and shakes its head or gets a good laugh at our expense. In contrast, Paul boasted of his weaknesses and thus proclaimed Christ's strength.

Hmm, I think I'm going to cross-post this at the Cultic Art thread, because it really connects. In Christianity we try to draw these "perfect pictures" meant to be inspiring, but they simply feel so lifeless, dead, and uninspiring. I think we should paint our weaknesses and brokennesses more. Like David's psalms. A lot of folks in the world can, do, and will relate to that better.

Bless you in Jesus!
Ramone

(Message edited by agapetos on April 01, 2009)
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is with our weaknesses that another can connect with us.
Diana L
Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We need more than a mere Exemplar, we desperately need a Savior and Substitute. Not surprisingly, another nineteenth-century cult agrees with the SDA view: www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/fhe/example.html

However, I was somewhat stunned to notice on this LDS website that they actually encourage making a small chart for every member of the family and congratulating each other on their spiritual progress as each point is achieved during the week(including a smiley sticker). Adventists have not only stolen the Mormon health message, but they have also stolen their soteriological stance. Indeed, the commonality amongst the four major cults is too vast to ignore.

Dennis Fischer

(Message edited by Dennis on April 01, 2009)

(Message edited by Dennis on April 01, 2009)
Stevendi
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Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Ramone,

Your words describe the realization that a relationship with God in Christ through the Spirit goes way beyond all boundries of the law. The hunger just keeps growing, to be more like our Hero Jesus. Nothing can stop us, not disappointment in ourselves or others, not circumstances, not failure. These things all knock us down when relating thru the law. But the very same become freedom-filled opportunities to glorify God in His work in us when we simply take it all in instead of trying to attain it or qualify for it. We have every right to know and proclaim that we are accepted by God, that we are secure, that we are significant in His estimation. (last line borrowed from Neil Anderson's Living in Christ).

Thanks again for your post,

Steve
Honestwitness
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad you all found a "kernel" of truth in my post above. <grin>

Did you notice that the concept of the "corn in the ear" is something I learned from my * SDA * husband? I think it's pretty interesting that he gets it, even though he doesn't get so much else about Adventism.

Honestwitness
Bb
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, Honestwitness, your husband has faith that if he were to be struck down before he was perfected, he would be saved? That is awesome, because I never learned that in adventism growing up. No wonder he is able to reassure people during their sabbath school class! That is more in line with believing in Jesus than ellen's theology!

And Ramone, I love that, the perfector of our faith!! Perfect faith, not perfect law keeping!

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