| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1497 Registered: 5-2007  |
I believe the ROOT CAUSE of the heresy of Adventist theology included not testing the spirits which, in turn, was caused by an even deeper ROOT CAUSE:
Adventist theology is rooted in the unwillingness to test the spirits to see if they are of God. So, what do you thing is the root cause of this unwillingness? Fearless Phil | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 832 Registered: 11-2007  |
Pride. Inability to admit they were wrong in the great embarrassment (I mean disappointment). Deception nearly always appeals to pride. If they had humbly repented and admitted they were wrong - this could have all been avoided, imo. Sondra | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1899 Registered: 8-2004  |
Another root cause (or perhaps pride in another guise) is the idea that we as humans can somehow save ourselves. This seems to me to be the underpinning of every false conception of salvation. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1848 Registered: 10-2002  |
Heya Phil, Did we trigger this thread by speaking about "roots" on those other two threads?  Haha. I've had some thoughts on this kind of thing today, but am stumbling on something else now... it occurs to me that "Adventist theology" per say isn't the main problem. What I mean is that the doctrines are sort of like the frame to a picture. The picture is the main thing. In the same way, the spiritual content is the main problem in Adventism. The "doctrines" and "theology" just frame the spirits. Does that make sense? (I hope so!) While I don't mean to de-emphasize the terrible-ness of Adventist theology, all the same the presence of the spirits themselves is the biggest problem. Scripture speaks of the "doctrines of demons", yet the main problem is the presence of those demons. The doctrines are a sort of open door -- or rather, they are a door-stop. The doctrines are not what initially opened the door, but rather something else opened the door and the doctrines were established in order to keep the door standing open. Does that make sense? So in searching these matters out (and the goal of such a search is intercession -- receiving and acting upon God's heart for His beloved children in bondage to the spirits in Adventism), this kind of changes our focus, I think. Or at least it should. To continue the "door" metaphor, we shouldn't be satisfied at making a collection of door-stops, so to speak. Firstly and foremostly, we've got to understand that the biggest problem is what spirits are going in and out through the open doors. And we want to know this not because we are offended by the mere false-ness of these things, but rather because these spirits are harrassing and spiritually raping and pillaging God's children in the Adventist church -- people that Christ found so valuable to Him that He died for them. our hearts must first be rent for suffering Adventists! Then we will have eyes (hearts, actually) ready to see what spirits are doing this, and what exactly they are doing. Secondly, after asking the Holy Spirit and listening to Him answer about what spirits are doing the stealing-killing-destroying of God's beloved in Adventism, we ask to see the open doors. Open doors can be many things... beliefs, experiences, traumas, agreements, invitations, etc. Obviously, we are all familiar with the doctrines of Adventism, so that's an easy place to start. However, something should be noted about the doctrines -- that doctrines are not always the open door. Often they are the door-stop, as noted earlier. Also, not all of the doctrines are of equal terrible-ness. Some open the door wider than others. And actually more important than that, not everything that causes havoc on Adventists is a doctrine: Doctrines, teachings, and beliefs are not always the same thing. There is a lot that is taught in Adventism that is not doctrinalized. And there is even more that is "believed" which is neither taught nor doctrinalized, but somehow finds its way into the hearts and souls of Adventists. So the "open doors" are not automatically the "doctrines". When the open door is found, it is important to SHUT IT! Recognize the truth, repent for opening it, and slam it shut in Jesus' name and seal it with His blood! Note, however, that it is important to find out how the door was opened. And why the door was opened. That "why" is almost always a matter of the heart. This is where we discover that the "roots" in Adventism are simple things that occur in everyday people, among Christians and non-believers alike. What we're looking at in Adventism is a certain combination of different roots that grew into a specific kind of tangled mess together. ***** The specific things I've prayed about and sort of mentally "mapped out" are mainly to do with the State of the Dead doctrine, the Sabbath, and of course the Investigative Judgment. My earlier thoughts from today were about "demonic groupings". I don't know much technically about this, but it's something that people experienced in deliverance ministry can tell you about. In layman's terms, it simply means that one sin often leads to another. But in deliverance terms, it means that one demon establishes a big stronghold, and after him there tends to come these other certain demons most of the time. You can see this at work in almost any traumatic event in someone's life, or addiction or major sin. For example, when someone is sexually abused by a parent, it opens the door to several spirits... things like shame are obvious, but also other things will come in. The child was hurt by those who should've loved him, so he will feel rejection deep inside. But because it happened by people he looked up to, he will then begin to accept it in some way. The parent's job is to comfort and accept the child, and so the child will begin to take such abuse as being comfort. The child will be far more prone to spirits of lust and perversion, simply because unconsciously these provide a sense of comfort (a false sense of comfort, mind you). He ends up doing what his parent did to him; firstly to himself, and then he will do it to others if he does not receive healing. And so the abuse is passed on; the victim becomes the victimizer. A spirit is passed from father to son, and then to the next generation until cut off in Christ. (By the way, this will sound a lot like psychology, and really, there is a lot of cross-over between psychology and spiritual warfare, but things are not always name-for-name parallel. In fact, often the "name" of a spirit is not entirely important -- what is most important is the nature of a spirit and the foothold it rests on, which I'll speak of in a moment. I'm writing off the top of my head at the moment, so apologize because I'm not being very thorough in explaining this.) ***** In Adventism, we can easily see the reality of "demonic groupings" at work. Take any of those major doctrines and you'll begin to see a lot of things that come in groups... For example, with the whole Millerite shabang. Someone (Miller) made an error in trying to calculate Jesus' coming. Somehow, he didn't get the gospel preached to him clearly, or he didn't understand it. He didn't come to rest in Jesus Christ. Or maybe he got seduced by the sheer enjoyment of the calculation, the fascination with the chase, so to speak. (Hey, a lot of folks get that with regular theology, too, and end up missing the fun & importance of being with God! I know I do!) Whatever the case was with Miller, people who likewise weren't resting in the gospel caught the same fascination, the same fever. They felt like they'd found something that hadn't been known or had been missed. And it was exciting. Unconsciously (at first), they felt like having this knowledge of the date of Christ's coming would endear them to Him more. Somehow, "being ready" and waiting out in the fields would be pleasing to Him. Not being out there to meet Him or not knowing/believing the date of His return amounted to rejecting Him. But that's getting ahead, sorry. The main thing was that desire to be pleasing to God, to know that He was pleased with you. And this "going out to the fields" was a sort of tangible way that they could know they would please God and find favor in His sight. Yup, there it is. Down at the very bottom, there is that fear that "I am not pleasing to God." That is our root. That is what propelled Miller and others on their hunt for "the date". (That's also what propells legalism and countless other problems in Christianity and in life itself.) So they searched, they calculated, they "prepared" -- because they thought that by so doing (by so finding the day and meeting that day) they were certain to be approved by God and welcomed into His arms. Yes, theologically you could rightly call this "works" -- salvation by works. But don't be in a rush to theologically define it or tag a definition to it. Rather, take a moment to identify with the transgressors (hey, that's me!). I know how they felt. I think all of us do, deep down. Sometimes in our eager rush to categorize or apply the proper theological/scriptural label to things, we miss the importance of identifying with the sinners -- of sympathizing with their weaknesses (hey, we serve a Master who literally climbed into our skin, sympathized with our weaknesses, and not only "identified" with us transgressors, but even "became sin" so that we might be freed from it and death). ***** And I'll note something here that might sound peculiar at first, but when you take this moment to sympathize with the weakenesses of our Adventist spiritual forefathers (or mothers), you'll find that you indeed really can relate! When we come out of Adventism it is easy for us to unconsciously not want to relate any more to them -- especially not to the *%@#$!'s who got this whole erroneous & abusive started! That's naturally one of the last things we'd like to sympathize with! BUT... when we do this, we'll find that actually their feelings were probably not much different than ours, even though they were the first generation of Adventists and we are over a century apart from them. Maybe you remember the pride you had at believing Adventism was the only correct, right, true church? The Adventist pioneer felt the same thing. You inherited it from him/her, passed down through the generations from spiritual parent to spiritual child. Maybe you remember how, while an Adventist, in the back of your mind at certain fleeting moments you knew there were problems with the Adventist reading of certain Scriptures, but you just ignored them and trusted & had faith in the right-ness of Adventism? The Adventist pioneer did the same thing. He/she also had times when a little alarm bell went off, but he/she chose to trust in the new way that they were forging ("Adventism") and what they had been through. When examining the roots of Adventism, your own experiences are actually very valuable in this way, because you participated in the same spiritual activity. You lived with the same open doors that they lived with. The fact that they were the ones who had been there when the doors were opened doesn't make the experience of living with the open doors much different at all. In an opposite way, you know how sometimes you read a quote by someone like Augustine or C.S. Lewis, and you are suddenly shocked to realize, "He knew the same God I do!" This is like that but in a terrible reverse. We knew the same spirits that the founders knew. So our own experiences, our thoughts, our motivations, our feelings, our choices during our time in Adventism -- these things are often valuable in discerning what spirits are floating around in Adventism, and what doors they come through. In fact, this is also valuable in learning how the doors were opened. Often, finding the opened door is not the end of the matter. Sometimes to close it you've got to find out how and why it was opened. The reason? Because like Jesus said, you may clean your house and then the demons might come back again. If you close a door and don't know why you had opened it in the first place, you might open it again later on. ***** Looking back at the Millerites, we can see that the door was opened firstly by the fear of not pleasing God. They needed the gospel, they needed the Sabbatismos of trusting in Jesus Christ's pleasing-ness to God instead of themselves. They were seduced because the date calculations sounded knowledgable, but more importantly they were seduced because such a thing spoke to their natural fear inside of not pleasing God, and this offered a way to be sure. From there we can see a lot of the demonic groupings which followed through that opened door -- the fruits of that tree, so to speak. The Millerites encountered opposition (sometimes unkind opposition). They reacted by choosing faith in Miller's date. When opposition continued, they felt they were being persecuted for righteousness. "We have something right, and are suffering for it." This is the beginning of Adventist "remnant-ism" right here. Because of the rejection they received (mind you, churches were right to reject Millerism!), they felt that the churches had rejected Christ. That they didn't love Him as much as we do, otherwise they would come out to meet Him (there is a parallel here with Adventists who say they "keep the Sabbath" to show their love for Christ). Here we see the spirit of pride being built up step by step. Add to that a spirit of judgment & condemnation of others who did not agree with "us". Some of these people came into Millerism already believing that the majority of churches had "gotten something really wrong" ... I'm referring mainly to those who came from the Christian Connexion, such as James White. Those people already had a stronghold in place or being well on its way to becoming a stronghold. They already had a stronghold of pride that rejected anything the majority taught. They already put greater faith in minority-ism simply because it was not the majority. This is another spiritual open-door, because it opens you to welcoming things that you might otherwise not welcome, simply because they are counter to the mainstream. However, I'm speaking mainly of Millerism, so I'll leave this good tangent for now. When the date came and went, most Millerites left Millerism. But a few refused to believe they had been mistaken. The "proofs" were there, but more than that, the experience had validated their proofs. Standing together in the face of opposition. Enduring scorn together. Leaving land and possessions for Christ (so they thought). Sacrifice. Prayer. Soul-searching. Honest attempts to be as righteous and "ready" as possible. Attempts to make things right with others and leave no hidden sin (wow -- didn't that return later on when EGW taught about the investigative judgment!). It was too much to let go of. Pride had been built up enough during the Millerite times that when Millerism finally had its coup de grace, the pride held them onto it. And here the stronghold became firmly established. Now in this interim time (until when I'm not exactly sure, but the founding of SDA is an easy end date to pick), during this time the spiritual strongholds that had been built up were still going strong. I mean, the doors were still open. That is how Ellen White's "familiar spirit" (that's what deliverance ministers call a spirit which imitates God's voice) got in. The pioneers at this point still believed that 1) their experience was correct, and 2) people who had rejected Millerism were fundamentally wrong and lost. So whatever gospel "they" were preaching in the churches, it was not sufficient to save. They didn't go through what we went through. At this point, of course, things were also on the edge. Pride held them on, but there was also great disappointment, great emotional distress. They were susceptible and looking for any kind of validation. A theory came up about the Sanctuary, and someone (EGW) had some visions which said it was correct. ***** Let's recount our journey. First, we started with a natural human fear (fear of displeasing God). Then, an idea was introduced which seemed to offer a sure way to please God and be saved. This idea met with strong opposition. But for many who believed it, the idea had latched onto a part of them that felt like, "If this isn't true, then I won't be able to please God" (wow, isn't THAT a root of so many things in SDA!). So out of even greater fear of not pleasing God, they held to the idea. (Pride is actually usually rooted in the fear of inadequacy. We puff ourselves up because we are afraid we don't measure up.) Pride got strengthened, but now the demonic groupings start to be visible. A rejection of what others teach who don't accept your idea. An openness to "alternative" ideas outside the mainstream. An exclusivism. A feeling that we alone are chosen by God, we alone are His special "called out" ones. And with Pride comes judgment of others -- judgment of them as being inferior, inadequate, unworthy. "Fear" opened the door, and pride came through and opened another door. Through that door came judgment, exclusivism, self-righteousness, and openness to anti-mainstream ideas. The more opposition came, the more strengthened the roots became. Then, when the date passed, they chose to hold on, trusting in their experiences. Yet the sheer weakness and real disappointment must have been terrible. Now their "openness" became even more vulnerable. The enemy suggested an idea, and they grabbed at it. Pride was saved (and strengthened). And then he sent a spirit to give visions to a young girl, impressionable and not grounded on the gospel of Christ, who like the rest also wanted to continue believing Millerism and not suffer the humiliation of being wrong. (The enemy suggested that if they were indeed wrong, then all was hopeless. I think for many of the Millerites, the "perfect chain" of Miller's proofs validated the Bible for them, so that their faith in the infallibility of the Bible became unhealthily based on Miller's proofs. So to say that "perfect chain" had been wrong would be to say that the Bible itself was wrong, and to say that would mean God was not real. This may be a stretch, but I don't think it's impossible that some of them felt this at least if not thought it. This kind of feeling/reasoning would again surface later on in Ellen White's writings, defending her "testimonies" and claiming that doubting her testimonies would lead to doubting the Bible itself and rejecting God Himself.) So in that vulnerable time -- rejecting the simple gospel of the Christian churches in favor of holding onto the "truth" of Millerism -- in that vulnerable time the theory of the Sanctuary came forth, and a regular "confirmer" was found in the visions of Ellen G. White. The doorstop was now in place. The wedge was hammered in. The other spirits in the demonic grouping -- the judgment, the exclusivism, etc. -- they now had time to develop and become doorstops of their own... doctrines like the investigative judgment and the "remanant". ***** Okay, I've written WAAAY too much, and while it's fascinating, I should've gone to bed! I pray this "journey through the roots" I've written about helps someone understand how these kinds of things form, come about, get strengthened, and open other doors to other bad stuff. And most of all, I pray that somehow this helps someone identify and sympathize with the transgressors in Adventism, and in so doing, receive God's heart for them and minister to them out of God's love for them. Bless you in Jesus! In His love, Ramone | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1902 Registered: 8-2004 |
Definitely helpful. Thanks Ramone! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6754 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks Ramone. The thing that I remember the best is the verse in 2 Cor that talks about the veil over the eyes of those that read Moses. For me that is enough to pray for them. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9652 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, insightful observations. I believe that even without identifying specific spirits we can say for sure that the root problem of Adventism is NOT the doctrines but the literal evil spirit that shaped the pride and delusions that became Adventism. I agree that we ALL, who have been part of it, have had a spiritual claim on us--the spirit of Adventism blinded us all. For sure this spirit is deceptive, arrogant, and malicious. It's entire purpose is the same as that of every evil spirit: to obscure truth and reality and to capture the unsuspecting and make them slaves to darkness. I have watched people who were heavily into spiritual warfare while being simultaneously Adventist, and they wondered why their prayers for Adventists didn't "work". I believe the clearest way to address these issues is by calling people to repentance. For some (and I don't mean you in this category, Ramone), identifying the "spirit of whatever" is a way of avoiding their own responsibility for sin. When we recognize that something we've been involved in is sin (such as embracing Adventism and the false gospel it teaches), our only appropriate response is repentance. Until people are willing to recognize that what they've embraced is actually sin, a product of darkness, a deception by evil spirits, they remain attached to it in some ways. Ultimately the Lord Jesus calls us to repent—and we must repent of our Adventism. To recognize that Adventism has a dark spirit behind it is simply being willing to face reality. There is nothing spiritually neutral in the universe; either things are of the domain of darkness or of the kingdom of God's Son. If we are holding onto anything that is not of the kingdom of God's Son, we're clinging to darkness. This is SIN, and God calls us to repent. I believe that sometimes it's easier and more straightforward to identify "sin" than to identify what evil spirit is behind behavior. Because sin HAS evil spirits behind it! But the Bible instructs us to repent, not to analyze the spirits. Repenting presupposes that we acknowledge the evil in what we have done or believed. And I absolutely agree with you that root problem of Adventism is not the doctrines; it is an evil spirit that blinds and deceives and facilitates arrogance. I know these things to be true, because I have been guilty as charged. I praise the Lord Jesus for revealing truth and for relentlessly taking me deeper and deeper into the need to repent and surrender at deeper levels. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1853 Registered: 10-2002 |
Very true, Colleen. I think of some friends I have now who are into spiritual warfare, and will often stop short at something because they feel they've identified the spirit. But that doesn't do much if you don't know the door that it came through -- in Biblical terminology, the "foothold" that it is standing on. Understanding how it entered and closing the door by repentance and the power of Jesus Christ is the main thing. It's easy to stop short and say, "I was deceived", or "I was blinded." Or as you said, "It was a spirit." But that isn't as important as how we were deceived, how the enemy got our permission to deceive us, so to speak. It's similar to how Japan looks at the Second World War. Rightly they are horrified by the destruction in Asia, in Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and sheer "war" itself. But more important than the terrible destruction of "war" is how 'war' comes about in the first place. It's not enough to say that Japan's national psyche was crazy with nationalism during the war. That's only the beginning. The more important thing is how the national psyche got carried away with nationalism in the years leading up to the war. Often we do the same thing when looking at some kind of spiritual trauma, falsehood, or deception. We stop short saying, "It's deception" or "It's this or that spirit". That may give us momentary affirmation that we've identified it correctly, but what can often happen is that the door remains open for us to go through in the future. And as you said, our personal responsibility in all of this is really important. Deceived or veiled or spirits or whatever, God calls us all to repentance. Identifying ourselves with the sins we've shared in is the first step toward recovery, just like for an alcoholic the first step is admitting "I'm an alcoholic." Assigning blame to other things isn't the goal. The spirits are like the mechanics of food poisoning, but we are usually responsible for putting it in our mouths in the first place. However now that I think about it, there are some cases where we aren't responsible, but I'll assume that those cases are in the minority here! (I know some people who, while children, were taken through cultic rituals and exposed to evil spiritual activity -- the door opened through no fault of their own... yet still, somehow repentance will bring freedom, even if it is in choosing to identify with their parents. But in that case forgiveness must come first. Anyway, that's another topic). Bless you in Jesus, Colleen! Ramone | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 431 Registered: 10-2006 |
Phil, The sin of insecurity. Lots of talk about dependence on God, but in reality, it's the same old sin of dependence on fleshly self-methodology. Knowledge trumps God's Spirit. Steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4521 Registered: 9-2006  |
Ramone, in talking about spirits, doors and footholds, reminds me very much of my old pastor of years ago who I credit with much of my founding in the word of God. If it hadn’t been for this initial founding on the word and a steady diet of great spiritual discernment that this pastor had, I might have fallen for Adventism when introduced to it. I have said before that Adventism (more correctly) the spirit of Adventism (for want of a better word) has a very, very, very strong pull. Like a magnate has to iron filings, it ‘pulls’ for want of a better explanation, once exposed to it, it pulls with a constant force toward it. I shudder to this day to think that should I have opened that door with the tiniest crack, I would have been pulled through it and would not have been here today. Paul Carden said this in speaking on Adventism: If you are not rooted and grounded in the doctrine of grace, you WILL be converted. Now he covers a lot of unspoken territory when he said doctrine of grace, but I knew exactly what he meant. Without that firm foundation on the word of God of the doctrine of grace, one is subject to open doors you do not even realize you are opening and those spirits or spirit will rush in. Maybe like a clean room whose vacuum is suddenly reversed, now the room is contaminated. I could have been subjected to years of misery and confusion. I can stand safely and look out there at those who were only involved in Adventism for a number of years, some 3, some 5, some longer and say ‘Oh, how could you be that stupid?’ And sometimes I do that so I am the stupid one, you can’t cure stupid, but Jesus can so I’ll leave my own stupidity with him and repent of any pride that tries to pry open the doors to the gates of my heart. When the Lord allowed me to see this spirit I tried to explain to you what I saw, a roiling, leering, ever changing thing with a thousand tentacles that are never still, an angry ugly thing that looked out at me, hating me for being uncovered, I see you, have seen you, you ugly thing you. Trying to name these things are a human effort, the spirit of pride, the spirit of deception, et al’ and you are only naming a tentacle and I am telling you I think it is a mistake. It is just one big mass of roiling confusion of ever changing ugly, uglier than a mud fence dobbed with tad poles. I refuse to open the door to this thing and say I am above those who have been deceived, because but for the grace of God and a Pastor whom God sent my way to pray many hours with me and for me, who opened the doors of their home to me and taught me patiently the basics of the doctrine of grace, the countless hours of answering my many questions, without that I would probably have been converted very easily. What amazing grace it was, to take an old unchurched alcoholic, deliver him and then furnished him with such patient Pastors is just beyond anything I could ever explain. I remember well when I would be bothered about this or that, I would just go to their door unannounced and they would say “Why come on in brother River!” and foolishly I thought that it was their total life to instruct me and pray with me and they would sit in their living room and instruct me from the word of God four and five hours and never let on that they had anything else in the world to do but that. This took place countless times over a three year period. This went on two or three times a week in addition to church three times a week! Where does God come up with people like that? They would talk about opening doors and roots just as Ramone has talked about this. Looking back I think God knew what things he was going to allow me to see in the deep spiritual things of him, so he sent a buffer to buffet me so that I would not open the door to pride. You may think that's pride when I mention the buffer, you wouldn't if you were on the receiving end of the buffeting. That old pride that Ramone talked about is a dangerous thing. As Ramone said, or I think he said, its not all that important to name the spirits individually to too realize the door they come in at. When Jesus told one of them to name himself, the spirit said “I am legion” Mark five and nine, readem’ and weep. This is more accurate I think, than to call it a spirit of pride, better to just assume that its name is legion. I think that this scripture is where people get this naming of spirits, the thing is, as Paul Harvey says, Legion is the ‘rest of the story’. To stand there in a deliverance session and try to identify one spirit is like trying to get a rain drop to tell you which one is falling when its raining all over the place. Repentance just slams the door on the whole shebang, while not repenting is like wedging your own foot in the door so they can stream in and out at will. They mostly like to stay indoors, encamped in a nice warm body. Why, I don’t know. Some innocent and just fell of the turnip truck type one each, government issued cristopolians don’t believe in the stuff about the doors and if God doesn’t protect them out and out they’ll stumble and fall over on their own boot laces. Whats behind door number three? You don’t want to know! River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1856 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River, Thanks for sharing that! Yes, you know, in sharing these things about specific spirits & roots, I agree there is a whole tangled mess. In specific prayer for people though, there are times when one stronghold may be addressed and it becomes useful to take care of one thing at a time. As a whole, however, when speaking academically of Adventism as a whole, it is indeed quite a mess! But in both cases, whether the academic categorization or in the private deliverance sessions, repentance & the power of what Jesus has done for us is the only door-slammer there is. Bless you bro. In Jesus, Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4523 Registered: 9-2006 |
I agree one hundred per. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4524 Registered: 9-2006 |
The root cause of Phil's problem is Adventists, hookers, and trees Inside joke. Don't even dare try and figure it out. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 292 Registered: 4-2007 |
These posts triggered this thought: The Adventist church is rooted in unbelief; the rejection of the Gospel. I’ll start with a paraphrase from an Adventist pastor on CARM: ‘Jesus is great, but there’s so much more.’ This reflects their theology that salvation is not found in the gospel alone, rather, the gospel is just the first step in a progression leading to salvation. The pioneers of the Adventist church rejected the gospel promise (guarantee) for progressive salvation. Rooted in this unbelief, it is no wonder that the Adventist church has created a unscriptural and heretical ‘system’ to earn salvation. Sadly, they are hardly alone, along with the JWs, Mormons and Catholics, a myriad of protestant churches are all saying: ‘Yes, Jesus is great, but WE have so much more (our ‘system’ is better). Anyone claiming they’re better does not have the Gospel - There is no ‘better’ Gospel The simple but profound free gift ‘Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone’ has been obscured by the enemy but is easily found and understood by those who acknowledge God’s sovereignty and humbly STUDY His word, guided by the Holy Spirit. Saved by His grace John Douglas | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4525 Registered: 9-2006 |
No John, there is no 'better' in the gospel, but there is better in football teams. Go Hogs>>>>> | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 293 Registered: 4-2007 |
It’s interesting to note that most formers that left, regardless of what their ‘hot button’ was, left because ultimately that ‘hot button’ impinged upon the Gospel promise. For those who believe they can reform the Adventist church need to accept that the Adventist church NEVER HAD THE GOSPEL and NEVER WILL! John | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 294 Registered: 4-2007 |
Well, better than nuthin | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 432 Registered: 10-2006 |
John, You crack me up! Thanks for the visit we had on the water front in February. I haven't written you back because I keep stalling because the story won't stop long enough for me to summarize. But after this Easter Sunday, I will write you. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9662 Registered: 12-2003 |
John, you're totally right. You can't "reform" Adventism because it does not have and never has had the gospel. And River, I love your succinct summary that repentance addresses the spiritual force that holds people in bondage. Unrepentance opens people to evil. Totally right. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2009 |
Adventist, hookers, and trees. Adventist, hookers, and trees. Adventist, hookers, and trees. Hookers "hook" things/people and won't let go (fish). When you do take the hook out, you get your mouth torn. Trees are static, can't move. Stand up to the storms and keep on doing the same thing. Adventists are... I give up. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 78 Registered: 3-2009 |
Haha, Hec, you were certainly not the only one with neurons working overtime with the Trinity discussion. My head is still spinning | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6781 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have come to the conclusion it is not necessary for me to unerstand the Trinity as long as I know Jesus Christ and have a relationship with Him. When I delve into the Trinity, my head spins, in a good way, but God has not shown me, yet. He may not until we get to heaven. All I can say is that He is an AWESOME GOD!!! Diana L | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1916 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi Diana, this reminds me of C. S. Lewis's statement about Communion, "We are told, "Take and eat," not "Take and understand." |
