| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1857 Registered: 10-2002  |
Joseph Tkach has announced that the Worldwide Church of God will be changing its name over the next few months: http://www.wcg.org/events/new09/april2009letter.htm Blessings in Jesus to you all today! In His love, Ramone | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 759 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thanks for the reference to the name change. Some may not agree in all the changes that have taken place with the Worldwide Church of God but the steps they have taken have been bold steps. I wonder if the SDA church will ever take a long hard look at some of their basic beliefs and make such wrenching changes in doctrine. Many in she SDA church do not agree with fundamental doctrines and it is just "papered over". I know what I feel will happen.  The SDA church has never even officially disavowed some of the heretical stands made in the early history of the church, just swept under the rug. In Him, Richard rtruitt@mac.com . | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2008 |
I love their new name . . . a people or church like that would have to include "Grace" in their name, because they, more than most people, have experienced that Grace on so many wonderful, deep levels!! Praise the Lord for setting the prisoners free! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1645 Registered: 4-2000  |
Just the name itself, Worldwide Church of God, carries a cultic stigma in most communities. Moreover, I think this name is a major factor that has kept them from growing. Most of their churches rely on rental properties. Herbert Armstrong wanted all their extra money--even requiring a triple tithe. Sometimes, when landlords changed their minds, the WCG members had to call each other during the week as to where they would meet for worship services. Not always knowing where you would attend church each week would definitely be a negative factor. Sadly, since their sweeping doctrinal changes in 1995, they have adopted beliefs even worse than they formerly believed under Herbert Armstrong (exempla gratiae, salvation after death, allowance of tongues speaking at non-worship times, et cetera). In-house, many now refer irreverently to Herbert Armstrong as the "old man." They are also still a hierarchical church governing from the top down. For example, their offerings are remitted to headquarters who in turn pay even the utility bills locally. All in all, the Worldwide Church of God demonstrates anew that cults cannot be truly reformed. Many current WCG members continue to have an insatiable desire for the cultic, uncommon, strange, special, and extraordinary in the religious realm. They have been unable to properly assimilate into the Christian community. After all, the doctrinal changes did not come from the pew. Members continue to have mixed feelings about their doctrinal changes. Of course, more than half of the members splint into dozens of strange groups. By the way, these findings are firsthand. My wife and I attended the local WCG congregation for about six months during our transition from Seventh-day Adventism. At the time, we felt comfortable in the fact that they observed the festal Sabbath and believed in soul sleep. At a WCG social occasion, I overhead a WCG member saying, "I think I will check out the Seventh-day Adventist Church." Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4531 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: Sadly, since their sweeping doctrinal changes in 1995, they have adopted beliefs even worse than they formerly believed under Herbert Armstrong (exempla gratiae, salvation after death, allowance of tongues speaking at non-worship times, et cetera). Allowance of tongues speaking at non-worship times is not a sign of cultic activity, nor is it a sign of downward spiral of any organization, nor is it unscriptural, never has been and never will be. River | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 509 Registered: 11-2007 |
Do they have anything to do with Church's Fried Chicken? I'm asking because they always have stacks of their literature in our local restaurant. Surfy | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 344 Registered: 2-2003  |
Thanks River, Now I don't need to say it :-) Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 345 Registered: 2-2003 |
By the way, what I do need to ask, is, what is exempla gratiae? Dennis? AB | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1646 Registered: 4-2000 |
Adrian, Exempla gratiae (e.g.) is Latin meaning "for example." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9666 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, River. The Bible doesn't forbid private speaking in tongues. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 762 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks River, while I don't speak in tongues I do find it Scriptural. Richard | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4536 Registered: 9-2006 |
Doc, I tried using them words like Exempla gratiae once and they thought I was speaking in tongues and tried to baptize me before I could get loose. I tried to explain the situation, but it just went down hill after that and I got dunked in a mud hole, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you are from, I came up with a tadpole in my mouth and two crawdads in each pocket. I am here to tell you is is plumb dangerous to speak Latin around a gaggle of Pentecostals. Don't even speak Mexican as they'll slap a sombrero on you and baptize you anyhow.  River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4537 Registered: 9-2006 |
I said et cetera once in front of all my kinfolk and they thought I said "set there", so they pulled up to the table and ate me out of house and home. My wife said if I ever used that there Latin again she was going to divorce me. She heard me go wooo suee at down at the hog pen an accused me of speaking pig Latin and called her lawyer. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4538 Registered: 9-2006 |
You got to watch your language around my kind. One time I went through town on a Tuesday singing 'Down by the River side' and they all left work and went to church where a week revival broke out and you couldn't even buy bread because the town was closed tightern EGW's bun. It taught me real quick to watch what I say around here. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4539 Registered: 9-2006 |
You got to watch your words around Leigh Anne too. Never use the word vat, she'll thing you said what and have you out plowin' the back 40, milkin' the holstiens, scoopin horse poop and eatin' goat cheese. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4540 Registered: 9-2006 |
Never go to church with her either, they carry around a bell on a stick and she is plumb dangerous with that thing, more especially if you wear a wig. She is liable to knock your wig off and it'll get shot six times before you can get aholt of it again. Them women will fight over who gets to cook it for potluck. If you want to feel accepted though, soak your shirt in coffee for a week before the visit. They go by smell down there. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1648 Registered: 4-2000 |
River, I occasionally use the actual Latin phrase "exempla gratiae" instead of the abbreviated "e.g." in SDA circles. Some Adventist and former Adventist readers think I am somehow referring to E. G. White (smile). Obviously, one cannot please all readers with every exposition. This matter well illustrates the important hermeneutical principle of considering the intended audience of the biblical writers before making any theological conclusions. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the gift of tongues is anything other than human languages. Besides, there is no evidence in Scripture that angels use a heavenly language. Whenever angels appear in Scripture, they communicate in normal human language (e.g., Luke 1:11-20, 26-37; 2:8-14). Nor is there any suggestion that the true tongues described in 1 Corinthians 12-14 were materially different from the miraculous languages described in Acts 2 at Pentecost. The Greek word in both cases is "glossa." The King James Version repeatedly uses the expression "an unknown tongue" in 1 Corinthians 14. The word "unknown" is supplied by translators and does not appear in the Greek text. Tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel. They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. Thus, tongues were a sign of transition between the Old and New Covenants. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1509 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis, I so enjoy your insights, both here and on CARM. YOu make our lives richer with your thoughtful explanations. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4541 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...Thank you Dennis for that tremendous doctrinal theses of an educated man such as yourself. I am honored. Now that you have straightened me out with such vast knowledge I will know better than to be taken up in such babble in the future. I am in such aw and wonder of such a mind and so humbly greatful it leaves me without speech. To think all these years of being so grateful to God for such a great gift only to find it is useless babbeling and I owe it all to you. And us country pole climbing bumkins reading our Bible so wrong! I owe it all to you to have sit under such knowledge. I will carry your message to the 90 million AOG's out there. Thank you, thank you! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4543 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...that wasn't in the best of spirits was it? I am a little cranky at night with a total of 19 hours under my belt. Dennis, you are wrong, wrong, wrong, what saddens me is that you had the chance when you came out of Adventism, but you didn't take it and you fell from Adventism into a place where you are just as closed minded as when you were Adventist or closed spirited is more the case. You have come to these conclusions with your mental power, but there is more to God than our mental powers of reasoning. Every former has the chance to wipe the slate clean of trying to operate from shear human reasoning. This is what I see, you have the chance, the go through the door to do great things for God among your own people. Those people, your relatives, your friends, are waiting, depending on you to bring them out. Yes they will argue, they will mistreat you, but God will work with you. But friends, this is spiritual warfare, it won't be done in your flesh, it will be done by and in his Holy Spirit. Dennis, I have been baptized in the Holy Ghost, just as Jesus promised in Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Dennis, God has used this gift that he has bestowed upon me many times, one time for the sake of a man who had just received a life sentence, he will never see daylight outside those walls again, he was in a jail in Ventura CA. As I was speaking to him about the gospel the Holy Spirit took over and I spoke in tongues and then translated what was said, here is something along the lines of what was said "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I have loved you with an everlasting love." And some more things I don’t remember, I don’t try to remember these things, it wasn’t for me, it was for that man. The man knew and recognized that it was not me, I was only Gods instrument and too this day he is serving God in that state prison. It is six years since that word was brought fourth by the Holy Spirit in that cell. I could tell you of other instances, but what purpose would it serve? There are two parts to those words in John. The second is that he will burn the chaff with an unquenchable fire. Any works we do, Christian or not, that is not of his Spirit will be burned up, all our human reasoning that is not of him will be burned up, we cloak ourselves in the reasoning of our flesh like fine linin and it will be burned away and leave us naked before him. The flesh will not survive. God has already notified me that it will not be me that goes to the Adventist, it will be you formers, I could be mistaken, but I don't think so. You can't put this job off onto the evangelical world, you can't wait for them to do it and you cannot wait for someone else to do it. If you don't do it who will? The evangelical doesn't understand what you understand. You may get a chance to speak to your respective churches about Adventism, but do you think they are going to understand what it took me four years to understand? They are going to get it in fifteen minutes? They will nod their heads and ask a few questions and go right back into their evangelical world. The Adventist will stand naked before God because all his works of the flesh will be burned away. We don't have time for this stuff of arguing over the validity of tongues, but Dennis I cannot and will not deny Gods Holy Spirit. For 38 years I have tried to walk in his Spirit and to tell you the truth I have done a poor job of it, I would hope that God hasn’t given up on me though. As I said Dennis, we don't have the time to argue, we have an admonition from God to go and minister to the lost and the undone. God loves these Adventist just as the loves the muslim who would kill you and think he's doing God a favor. Time is running out for some Adventist right at this moment, the clock is ticking down and here I am wasting my energy on sarcasm and I am ashamed. I am going to be very straight forward with you, I will try to be what God wants me to be, if it is to remain here and minister to you folks, then I will do that. But I am not going to waste my time with you. I beg of you, for their sakes stay open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, don't come out of there and go closed minded as you were when you were there. God loves them and wants them to come out of the shadows to the same cross and to leave the filthy rags of Adventism there at that cross. River |
