| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1861 Registered: 10-2002  |
River, thanks for sharing that. Watch out for the frustration, though. Hehe. *grin* Don't let it get to you. I have friends & family members who can't believe me when I say God is real. But He's revealed Himself to me, whether or not they believe it or not. Sadly, it's often the same with the Holy Spirit for many Christians because of cessationism's fear of being deceived (which was what this thread was about). There is more going on that plain sense, because cessationism or merely anti-tongues doesn't make biblical sense. It requires the applying of labels where Scripture is silent, and the re-intepretation of things that are written plainly. Exempla gratiae (*grin*), saying that tongues were merely a sign for unbelieving Israel doesn't take into account the fact that 1st Corinthians 14 speaks of tongues as ongoing, and further that 1st Corinthians is written to Gentiles, not to Jews. The chapter expressedly forbids the forbidding of tongues, and also clearly leaves room for untranslated tongues in private and translated tongues in public. Limiting tongues solely to private use is also therefore unbiblical. Anyway, for anyone wanting to do a serious study on tongues, I recommend Jack Hayford's book, "The Beauty of Spiritual Language." So anyhow, don't let it get to you bro. I'll note that "tongues" is one of a good few revolving topics (or debates) here on the forum, ha! The other most popular ones would probably be the Trinity, Dispensationalism vs. Replacement-Theology, and Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I'm probably missing a few, but these are some ones that have the longevity of a Phoenix bird. (Of course *I* have nothing to do with that... *laugh*) Blessings in Jesus to you all! In His love, Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on April 12, 2009) | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 764 Registered: 1-2003  |
Ramone, I had to laugh when you mentioned the "revolving topics" here. You hit most of them.  I've learned God has a sense of humor. (I do not mean to be disrespectful) Only once I prayed a prayer of, "Lord you can give me any gift your want except "XXXXX", guess what? He gave me that gift and in basic terms said, "deal with it and go out and minister to my children". [I'm not mentioning how I was gifted on that occasion to keep out of arguing about it. God can not be put in a box of what we are to expect and how he may manifest Himself in our life. After all He is GOD ] It is much safer and less painful to pray, "Lord here am I send me." He may manifest Himself to us in ways that may seem strange but will touch others in ways we have no idea of. I constantly pray that I will be open to what He wants to do in my life. He is patient with me but I want to hear Him the first time, do I always? NOPE, but I seek an open heart to hear Him when he speaks. In HIM, Richard rtruitt@mac.com . | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4546 Registered: 9-2006  |
Te heh, Richard, that is so funny, and so like God. I will never doubt that he gave you the whatchacallit, and I don't want to know, but its FUNNY. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6771 Registered: 3-2004  |
Oh, Richard, Can I identify with what you wrote!!! All I do now is ask God to use me in any way He wants and He does. He gives me what ever I need to do what He has assigned me to do. Thank you awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ouch, ouch, ouch, you guys like to trip me and see me rolling down, bump, bump, bump, and when I get up, I'm all bruised and dizzy. When I think I'm getting something, you just throw a curve ball, and, swing, I strike out again. Somewhere else we have been discussing The Trinity. One God. River says here:
It sounds like he is saying that being baptized with the Holy Spirit entails to get the gift of speaking in tongues. Does that mean that those who do not speak in tongues have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit? If God is one, when one gets baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the spirit takes residence in one's heart, doesn't that mean that one was baptized with the Holy Spirit? Now, I'm all tied up in knots. Someone please, disentangle me. As far as the revolving topics, I guess we newbies are the culprits. Things that you already have discussed are new to us, and we keep asking questions. Thank you for being patience with us and revisiting those topics. It's good for you in a way. As they say, practice makes perfect. Thanks. Hec | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 991 Registered: 7-2004  |
From my reading of 1 Corinthians 14, it sounds like tongues is one of many gifts, and not all have the same gift. Therefore, although I have heard some Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians teach tongues are the sign that one has received the Holy Spirit, I don't believe that is what the Bible teaches, and I don't think River believes that either - but he can speak for himself. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9670 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, no. Not everyone baptized with the Holy Spirit receives the gift of tongues. Some people say the baptism of the Holy Spirit always entails tongues, but 1 Cor 12 and 14 say that God gives the gifts as He will, and we are to desire the greater gifts. Ephesians 4:5 states that there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and Father of all. All believers are filled with the Holy Spirit when they believe. They can have special, empowering fillings for special purposes beyond that, but speaking in tongues is not a gift everyone receives. Some will say that the only reason people don't receive the gift of tongues is that they are resisting or fearful or disbelieving, but I know that is not necessarily the case. There are many gifts listed in Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, Ephesians 4, and 1 Peter 4. We do not all receive all of them. The bottom line, I believe, is our submission to the Father. God does not always give us our spiritual gifts at the time we come to faith. Sometimes He does; sometimes He gives us gifts at later times. But we can trust God to give us what he knows we need—and truly, only He knows what He wants us to receive and how He is equipping us to serve the body—because our gifts are for the edification of the body. (Read Ephesians 4.) Don't worry, Hec—God doesn't operate with a formula. At the same time, He asks us to be in submission to HIM, offering ourselves as living sacrifices for His purpose and glory (Romans 12:1). God doesn't give us gifts for His amusement or ours. He gives them for His glory, and we must not limit what He will do in accordance with His word. God's power and resurrection life make us completely new people. Twenty years ago I would not have imagined my life looking like it does now—in many, many ways! And yes—the gift of tongues is one of His gifts to the church! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 992 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess 1 Cornithians 12:30 is the verse I was really looking for that clearly says not all speak in tongues:
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| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4547 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hec, when the subject of tongues come up I got to where I sort of cringe a little any more because so many people do not understand what this gift is. I used to think that all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit has the ability to pray in tongues if they understand that everything received of God is by faith, I still suspect that this is the case. However I am not so sure any more. And besides, its not important to me that they speak with tongues, all I can say for sure is that I have had the gift for thirty eight years and I thank God for the gift and the giver. I do know that there is a separate baptism separate from when you get saved, yes when you get saved the Holy Spirit, the seal of our salvation does come in, you can't be saved without him. But the baptism he spoke of in John is just what it is, water baptism is water baptism and just as you may not be water baptized, you may not be Spirit baptized,The best way I can explain it is that when you are saved, then you can get water baptized. When you are saved then you can get Spirit Baptized. Water baptism is by man, and Spirit baptism is by Jesus himself. In the one case it is man that does the dunking and in the other case it is the Lord himself that does the dunking. The one great reason I suspect that all who are indeed baptized in the Holy Spirit can pray in tongues is that God is not a respecter of persons. Never. Just because a man is a great preacher, he is not preferred by God over the newest borned again Christian who has not grown an inch. Now what Raven says there I think is wrong about 1 Cor. 12:30 because it is hardly ever taken in context, which is what is happening with raven, by now more especially the former ought to have sense enough to take the word in context, but its the same old problem of looking and finding what they want to find, make it fit them instead of them fitting the word of God. No Offense meant Raven. But in this chapter Paul is most clearly teaching the Corinthians how to act in a group setting, he is not talking about praying in tongues while alone with God. Praying with tongues is not the same thing as tongues and interpretations. Tongues and interpretations is for the edification of the body, while praying with tongues is praying in the Spirit of God and it edifies oneself. Now having said that Hec, I think the most important thing for you right now is to let the Bible speak to you and let it say what it says. Get the Ellen out and the word in, if you don't understand something it says, well...just let it say it anyhow and stack it back in the old carrot and trust God with it that he will teach you in time. You can't possibly swallow a whole stear, but you can eat him a bite at a time. You can't go out and swallow a whole stear and you can't go out here and swallow the whole Bible at one time neither, you can't just say "Oh, gemme the whole thing and I'll take it to go, it don't work like that. We can sit on here and argue and hack and holler at one another about what is and what ain't and it won't change Gods word or his mind one iota. So is it really important what I think or raven thinks? Raven and I both need to get deeper into the word and let it say what it says, what god meant for us too have. Since I came to this forum Hec, I have learned to love a little bit, God has taken me out of my concrete bunker and is showing me that I can love and that I can trust a little. I spent my life laying layer upon layer of concrete with re-enforced steel over my life so no one could get in and hurt me, I trusted no one, did not allow anyone to come in and love me. I'm still screwed up Hec, but God has started removing the layers of protection that I thought I needed to protect me from hurt. I met with some of the members of this forum down at a local restaurant and I felt that I knew them already, wonderful people and when I drove home it was like God saying "See? They didn't hurt you." God is removing the layers of self imposed exile and I am so thankful. You see, you can carry the gifts of the Spirit and be used by God in amazing ways, but the most important thing you can possess is love and to have someone love you. In order to do that you have to take the risk of loving someone, I am not talking about words, but love of real substance. You see, if they can't love you even with your faults, they cannot love you at all, and you cannot love them if you have to take into account or start counting their faults and failures. If Jesus looks at our faults and failure and cannot get past them to love us, then God help us, we are in trouble, and if we cannot look past one anthers faults and failures and cannot get past them to love each other, then God help us, we are in trouble. But Jesus can and does, and through him we can too. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1504 Registered: 5-2007  |
My thoughts on "at a local restaurant": The name was 'Olive Garden' and to me this was a poetic truth that went far beyond those of us who were there, my very most favorite song being; 'In The Garden'. It represented more than those of us who were there. Many things seem to have been represented in that 'little gathering'. In meeting with each one of you, especially those not physically there: a. I am to share what the Lord is doing in my life. b. I am becoming (already am) a part of many lives. c. I have great joy seeing 'new faces' meet other 'new faces'. Our live were instantlly joined together. d. I am so blessed and am learning so much by being a part of each one of your lives. e. Hec, even though you were not there, and in truth we hadn't met yet, really, you were there because it was for you that we were there. P.S. Hec, if the truth were to be revealed on this forum, you would find out that there is much tribulation within my own family, but our Savior is working on the lives of each one. What I am saying is don't be amazed by the difficult times that you have shared...God will turn these into things of joy. As Colleen likes to say, over and over; "God redeams everything". P.P.S. I see by the clock I had better eat and get to work. Oh, one more thing. I have never spoken 'in tonges' but that doesn't mean a thing about what God has planed for tomorrow. Praise God. Phil | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 346 Registered: 2-2003  |
Dennis, Thank you, I must have been tired. I know what e.g. means, really! I just thought you must be referring to some aberrant theological view I had never heard of! River, You're hilarious. So what if I come and speak Hungarian around you? Will that get me drowned in a horse-trough? Just a couple of other comments, based on the posts. In case anyone is interested (if not, skip down some): When the revival which led to the formation of the Pentecostal movement broke out, in Azusa Street, Los Angeles in 1906, it was among simple people who were not necessarily theologians, but they were thirsty for more of God. This was the first major revival in modern days (though there had been earlier "attempts" in the 19th century) in which speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Spirit played a significant role. The revival was opposed by the religious establishment (as revivals usually are in their day); the Pentecostals were often labelled as a cult. So they were left on their own to work out their doctrines. (Interestingly enough, the last revival of a non-charismatic nature occurred on the Hebrides in the 1950s. Since then, besides a strong preaching of repentance, all revivals around the world have had a charismatic side to them. But that is by the way). They came up with the formulation that they believed in the baptism in the Holy Spirit, as an experience subsequent to the new birth, with the "initial evidence" of speaking in tongues, and quoted Acts 2: 4 to back this up. This idea has stuck ever since, and "classic Pentecostals" tend to insist on this idea of initial evidence as being "orthodox". It was mentioned on another thread that members of a movement tend to look back to what the pioneers of that movement believed, and accept that as absolute truth. Pentecostals ended up coming out of their churches, or being thrown out, and forming new denominations. Then the next stage, the Charismatic movement, came about in the 1950s and 60s, when people who received the baptism did not tend to leave their churches, but stayed in their denominations. The teaching associated with this movement did not insist on initial evidence, but just accepted tongues as one of the several gifts. The so-called "third wave", starting in the 1980s, then concentrated on planting new churches and on evangelism linked with signs and wonders. These people place even less emphasis on tongues, and may even identify the baptism in the Holy Spirit with conversion, and consider the experience of the Spirit to be "ongoing". All of which means, that even within Charismatic circles, there are differing views on this point. I think my own view is similar to River's though he can correct me if not. Although my training is classic Pentecostal, I think the term "initial evidence of speaking in tongues" is rather unfortunate. Even some of my teachers at Bible College thought that (though they did not necessarily admit it to everyone :-) ). I think that when someone receives the Baptism in the Spirit, then the gift of tongues is "part of the package", but it may not manifest immediately, due to various reasons. So it is possible for someone to be filled with the Spirit and not speak in tongues, but if they are properly encouraged, then they eventually will. At least that is what I think at the moment. Of course, I may be wrong... This is long, so I will split here, Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 347 Registered: 2-2003 |
As to what the baptism in the Holy Spirit (a Biblical term) actually means, there are several views on that too. I think the Reformed view is that it is to be identified with the new birth, so it takes place at conversion. There is the idea that baptism in the Spirit refers to the immersion of a believer into the body of Christ, i.e. the church, which takes place at conversion. This is based on 1 Cor 12: 13: “For we were all baptised by one Spirit into one body…” From memory, I think this was first stated by the Brethren in the early to mid 19th century. There are a couple of problems with this view. For a start, this is the only Bible verse which supports this view, and the Greek is a little strange; it can be translated in several ways. I actually think that this idea is correct, that we are baptised by the Spirit into the body, but this is not the baptism in the Spirit that John the Baptist and Jesus talked about. Here the believer is baptised BY the Spirit (agent) INTO the body (medium), whereas in the other verses, the believer is baptised BY Jesus (agent) IN the Holy Spirit (medium). The Pentecostal view is then that the new birth and the baptism in the Holy Spirit are two different events which take place in the course of someone becoming a Christian and being equipped for service. The Australian Pentecostal theologian Kevin Conner explains it as follows, which I found helpful: Before someone is converted, they are spiritually dead, which means they are cut off from having any relationship with God because of sin. We see this is Ephesians 2, e.g. (death means separation – these things have been discussed here many times). Through hearing the gospel and accepting it, and through the work of the Holy Spirit, a person is born again, which means that a personal relationship with God comes into existence. Other things occur too, of course: forgiveness of sins, a new creation, being sealed by the Holy Spirit unto redemption, becoming a child of God. This is only possible by the Holy Spirit, and from that point the Spirit lives inside the convert and is active in his life. If we consider Jesus, he never sinned and was never cut off from a relationship with his Father, so he never needed to have a relationship with God restored. Jesus did not need to be born again, he was never spiritually dead. However, he never started his ministry and never did any mighty miracles until he was thirty. At that point he was baptised in the Jordan, and the Holy Spirit came on him as a dove. This is when he was “anointed” by the Spirit, and from then on, he was active in ministry. The baptism in the Spirit in the life of a believer would be equivalent to this anointing or equipping for service. So at conversion, a person is born again by the Holy Spirit and comes into a relationship with God. At the baptism in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit “comes upon” someone and anoints him for ministry. This opens the way into use of the supernatural gifts. In my own life, these two occurred about 10 months apart. And yes, I did speak in tongues immediately. River, you beat me to it! I have only been speaking in tongues for 29 years! I must say, that the supernatural work of the Spirit is just such a part of my everyday Christian life, that I find it rather difficult to believe when someone tries to tell me it doesn’t exist. Sorry to be long, God bless you all, Adrian P.S. By the way, I mentioned on another thread that I have written an article on the gifts of the Spirit and the cessationalist view, if anyone is interested. I don’t want to post it here, as it is too long, and I have already waffled on too much about non-Adventist subjects. Email me! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4552 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: I think the term "initial evidence of speaking in tongues" is rather unfortunate. Doc, I agree, Pentecostals bandy that word around "initial evidence" like a person has to prove something to them. We don't have to prove anything to anybody, its Jesus doing the work, not them. I suppose it does sort of go beyond a shadow of a doubt to indicate to the person who is on the receiving end of the baptism in a way, but then how does he know its not just gabble? The thing is, I believe a person can recieve the baptism in the Holy Spirit and maybe never speak in tongues. Why? Because he may not understand that this also is received by faith. Its not like we receive the Baptism and God puts in another gear, it is received by the same faith you receive salvation. Every thing we receive is by faith in Jesus, God demands faith. We receive everything we get by faith alone and grace alone. To a person who don't understand this one fact, he will probably never receive the ability to pray with tongues. When you start trying to put God in some box and tie him up with a neat ribbon and bow and say things like "Initial evidence" and start expecting something to happen in a certain way, your just setting yourself up to miss the boat. I've heard people say "Well, I received the baptism, but I didn't receive the gift of tongues,or. well God if you want me to have it lay it on me. What do they think? God is going to take hold of their yapper and move it for them? As you said Doc, the ability to pray with tongues is part of the package, the ability to bring a message from God in tongues and interpretation is not. That is a gift of the Spirit and God gives that out for his own purposes such as with the prisoner I mentioned. I have suspected for a while now, that the ability to pray with tongues and speak to god uninhibited is part of the restoration of the ability that we lost when Adan sinned, because that is what praying with tongues is like, there is nothing in the way including my own brain and reasoning. How many time does our own human reasoning stand between us and God? What? 99% of the time? The reason God can't do much through us and with us is 99% because we reason that it can't be done, we doubt and we don't receive or we make up our minds that it can't be done accept in such and such way and we don't receive. We build our theological barns, stuff it to the brim and what do we say? Let us build more. If any of us had half a brain we would be dangerous. By the way Doc, you come over here in some of these back country churches speaking Hungarian and they might just hold you under longer than you can hold you breathe just to make sure the job is done. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1865 Registered: 10-2002 |
Doc, I like what you wrote. Thank you. I especially appreciate how you took Paul's words in context -- about being baptized by the Spirit into the body. I think such contextual reading also is necessary when looking at Paul's mention of "one baptism" in Ephesians 4, because what often happens is that we 'exegete' the Scriptures according to our experience. If we haven't experienced a "baptism of the Spirit", then we read the Scriptures in such a way as to equate the new birth (being born of the Spirit) as being the same as the baptism of the Spirit -- making the two things synonamous & simultaneous. They often are, but not always. This is seen in Acts repeatedly, when the Spirit baptized but this came at different times than water baptism or belief (one might ask, as well, about the apostles themselves, why their baptism of the Spirit occured well after their water baptism and belief). I think the biggest reason we attempt to consolidate all the different 'baptism' passages into one event (somewhat forcibly despite context) is primarily because the baptism of the Spirit is not part of many Christians' normal experience of coming to know God and be filled with Him. Part of this is likely due to the way that the Holy Spirit resists being compartmentalized and doctrinalized. It is somewhat natural, then, if our doctrinalization wipes His baptism (as a unique event) out of the equation of normative Christian experience. The whole effort of cessationism is itself an attempt to have everything (or as much as possible) ironed out intellectually, so as to have things more managable -- which would feel more "safe" to us. The presence of, communication of, and living relationship with a living Holy Spirit is something that is basically a wild card -- unpredictable. One of the major positives of His wildness, however, is that it keeps us in submission to Him, waiting upon Him instead of trying to formulate all our answers or imagine that everything is available to us by indexed Scriptural study. Could you post your study online somewhere? Bless you in Jesus! In His love, Ramone | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 254 Registered: 1-2007  |
I am a spiritual retard, I have not experienced any spiritual phenomina' heard of it from third persons etc. but Never seen it, felt it or heard it. My experience with God so far is through the Word and truth, My experience is through Love. Maybe one day I will be blessed with such gifts but as of now I will be satisfied with truth. Paul | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4559 Registered: 9-2006 |
Paul, I have seen it, felt it and heard it and I still feel like a spiritual retard. I guess me and you would get along pretty good then. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1867 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey River! I'll second you on that! I'm a spiritual retard, too (to use Paul's phrase). The weird thing is that whatever phenomena are experienced, it doesn't erase the way that you stand by faith on the truth. That's something I couldn't really understand before (during my Adventist years especially). I really wanted to experience something out of an inner cry to be more sure. I couldn't believe just because I wanted to -- I couldn't convince myself of something (that God existed, etc.). But no visions or anything came. Through different peoples' help and at different times, God basically helped me realize my inner needs and fears, and one by one I died to them, letting them go. One step at a time, I learned to surrender my needs to God and let Him do things His way. When a lot of time had passed and God had built up my faith, I began to understand He was speaking to me. And new ways did come, but everything is built on the same kind of faith. Often I'm still slow to get what He's saying. Sometimes I have moments of clarity, but then an hour later or a day later I can be in a totally different place, so to speak, and have forgotten it all. And always, the option of doubt is still there. No matter what He does, you still have the choice to doubt Him. And those doubts will come, because our emotions naturally change at different times. So your faith is not in what you've experienced, but in what He has done for you on the cross. So there's no boasting in spiritual experiences, nor is there boasting in lack of spiritual experiences. Neither he who has them nor he who does not have them is greater, for each must rest on faith the same; each must rest on Christ alone and who alone is the Great One. With spiritual experiences it is possible to get puffed up. And without spiritual experiences it is also possible to get puffed up. You're not safe from being puffed up or safe from doubt by having spiritual experiences, nor are you more safe if you don't have spiritual experiences (that is an illusion just the same as thinking that you can be more 'sure' with spiritual experiences). I believe that to anyone with faith, they hear God. And more than that, I believe God speaks to us a lot more than we recognize. The problem is we tend to limit how we think He can speak. He works through what we allow Him to do (Bible study being the most popular and "safe" way), and He works around our mental boxes as well. He speaks in ways we don't expect. Sometimes we get the message that it's Him telling us something, but other times we don't recognize it's Him. But if we somehow get the substance of what He's saying and follow it, I think He doesn't mind us not realizing that He's the one who said it. I think He sometimes likes to give gifts to us in secret, you know? Because after all, He does like to make us happy. All that said, His Spirit is still His Spirit. The Holy Spirit has not changed since the days when the Old & New Testaments were written. He still speaks today like He did then, and He is full of gifts and inventive ways of communicating with us (Scripture mentions nine spiritual gifts, but I don't think that's a complete listing). What He calls us to is submission to Him as our Lord and Master, in full trust that He gives us all that we need. This means openness to Him -- so that if He wants to speak to us as He did in the Bible days, it's wise for us to just humbly accept; or if He wants to work with us in other ways, it's also wise to just humbly accept. Because He knows what's best. Blessings in Jesus to you all today! In His love, Ramone | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 348 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hey River, It sounds like we are pretty well on the same wavelength. Putting God in a box? Bad idea! I mentioned to someone just the other day, that when I had been a Christian for 6 months, I already knew everything. Now I have been one for thirty years, I realise I know pretty well nothing! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 349 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Ramone, Thanks for your comments too. I'm afraid I haven't got the stuff I mentioned on line (just livin' in a backwater Hungarian village!). If you post me an e-mail here: athb4hu@yahoo.co.uk I'll send it to you. Thanks too for your many thoughtful posts Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 350 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hey Paul, And I third what the guys said. Humility is not a bad thing. God is basically sovereign and does what he likes. He will never act in conflict with his character, but he may do stuff which is unusual, and difficult for us to understand. Just to upset the Pharisees :-) Isten áldja mindnyájatokat! Adrian |
