| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 894 Registered: 11-2007  |
This is a very great story many of you will relate to, and another wonderful witness of a truthseeker! http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/confessions-of-a-former-sabbath-keeper/ | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6889 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks for the link above. I took the time to read most of it, skim the rest and read the notes at the end. What a testimony for Jesus. Diana L | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 405 Registered: 7-2004 |
That was really good! I really want to share this! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1919 Registered: 10-2002  |
I'll be bookmarking this, thanks! This excerpt is great: The SDA and Puritan (covenant theology) perspective looks at the Holy Spirit as our assitant to keeping the moral commands of the Mosaic Law. In other words, "law" and "sinlessness" is still the goal, and hence the gospel can often become very occupied with sin-management. Sin is still the thing to get past, the goal to avoid it, etc. The true gospel, however, proclaims something that leaves sin far behind. A Spirit, a Spirit of grace and holiness that simply surpasses law. The law looks at transgression and thus provokes sin in the flesh. But the Spirit says "do" and calls people to "love"... it is the difference between "holiness" and "unholiness". Law calls us to avoid unholiness, Spirit calls us to holiness. Law cannot produce holiness, but simply points out unholiness. The goal of the Spirit is not to avoid unholiness (as covenant theology/third-use suggests), but rather to be holy by following Christ's love and the Spirit's leading. Along the way, of course unholiness will be avoided. And sin will be bypassed and left behind. But these are not the goals. The goal is to walk in the holy footsteps the Spirit is leading us in, in Christ's love. The Spirit does not lead us to Sinai, but rather we have all already come from Sinai and see that we are broken beings who have nothing but a broken law in our hands, and the Spirit then carries us henceforth into the promised land of His rest -- into a place of rest in Him where, by the way, yes, we are free from sin (and being freed from sins), but above all into a place where we lose ourselves (including our focus on our attempts to be righteous) by being enraptured by His loving face. As John Donne said, One of the biggest hindrances for Sabbath-keepers seeing the truth about resting in Christ is the intense fear inherited from covenant theology (likely via Puritanism) of giving people a license to sin, or of adopting a belief that would eventually allow oneself to drift off into sin. This fear is incredibly deep, powerful, strong, and I think almost entirely unconscious. To the believer it seems more rational, but the intensity with which covenant theology/third-use believers react to people teaching the law of the Spirit (and/or the New Covenant) speaks volumes. It seems to be rooted in a deep-seated fear of maybe being lost, actually, by actions, or rather, a fear that drifting into immoral actions would prove that the person was "lost" after all. The irony of this fear is that it comes amongst a group of Christians ("reformed") who believe strongly in the inability to be lost after having been saved. What I believe this indicates is that at a deep "heart" level, the theological formula(s) which "prove" one cannot be lost may not give ultimate assurance of salvation in many peoples' hearts. The assurance may be more theological than an actual knowing it, an actual hearing it from God Himself. Ultimately, resting in God means resting our morality in Him, too. Trusting our future morality in Him. Trusting that He will not let me fall into the pit. Trusting that He will not let me stray too far from Him. Trusting that He is strong enough to keep me not only for "salvation", but for day to day morality, and to be pleasing to God day to day. I think the covenant theology/third-use's reliance on the law (arising from the intense fear of "license to sin") is at some level a substitute for this kind of ultimate trust in Christ, so it is natural --if one unconsciously fears that the law of the Spirit is not quite adequate-- to run back to Sinai for day to day living. Okay, sorry for this big detour! This is territory that has been covered repeatedly on the forum, and is one of the top ten "revolving topics", I think! Haha. Blessings resting in Jesus! And in His Spirit! Ramone | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 371 Registered: 2-2003  |
Well put Ramone, If it has been said before, it is because it is an important topic. The two extremes to avoid are "licence to sin" and legalism - not just one, but both of them, and the way to do it is by walking in the Spirit daily. Focusing on sin certainly does not help people get rid of it, see Romans 7. It is interesting that in Hungary, legalism is rampant, Christians are not holy, and assurance of salvation is lacking (in general, of course). Even the Calvinists manage to have no assurance, according to the following argument: "Well, we go along to church and try to please God in our lives, but we don't actually know if we belong to the elect. We will only find that out at the end of our lives." Maybe national character has something to do with it, as well as theology. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 300 Registered: 8-2008 |
If God didn't count me among the elect, He certainly would not have wasted His time revealing His Son to me. No amount of going to church or not going to church can cause or remove His pleasure in me. The only way I can please Him is by accepting His Son Jesus. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1989 Registered: 8-2004  |
Ramone, I especially appreciate this paragraph: "The goal of the Spirit is not to avoid unholiness (as covenant theology/third-use suggests), but rather to be holy by following Christ's love and the Spirit's leading. Along the way, of course unholiness will be avoided. And sin will be bypassed and left behind. But these are not the goals. The goal is to walk in the holy footsteps the Spirit is leading us in, in Christ's love." That is exactly it! The idea that you can trust God with the eternal (maybe), but not with the everyday (which is why works are "needed"), is one of the roots that give off all sorts of foul fruit! Blessings, Mary (Message edited by helovesme2 on May 11, 2009) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1920 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks... I didn't mean to write that much, and apologize for derailing the thread. I just wish I could SHOUT for joy, you know, because it is SOOOO wonderful, SOOO wonderful to just REST in Jesus! Not just for my eternal "salvational" security, but for TODAY! I know so much bad stuff that's been in me in my life, and yet when He led me to Himself, I just feel in His arms and keep falling into His arms every day. And He picks me up! He holds me up! I can trust Him! I just want to SHOUT to people that you can trust Him with your EVERY DAY, with TODAY, with whatever situation you're in, whatever need you have, whatever difficult sin or temptation you can't get free of -- yes, He has eternal grace for you, but He also has DAILY grace for you, right now grace for you! In a real way, you know, that is the Shabbat shalom, isn't it!! We say that we "rest" in Jesus 24/7, but if we are still running to Sinai to rest in the law in order to feel morally safe and secure that we won't sin or fall into sin, then we're not completely resting in Christ. You can rest in Jesus TODAY, right now this minute! And you can rest in the Spirit of Jesus Christ -- the Holy Spirit! He is your Sabbath rest, He is Eden inside of you! He can and will lead you in which way to go, and even if you take a bad step, He will pick you back up so that you don't utterly fall down. He is the "guarantee" of your salvation -- not only eternity's, but Today's salvation! He is the practical "hand" that Jesus was talking about when He said no one is able to snatch us out of His and Father's hand! His Spirit is powerful and sufficient to hold onto us, minister to us, keep us held firmly to Him and in Him. I just gotta SHOUT!!! Jesus is your rest! His Spirit is your rest! He's not just your theological rest, not just your salvational rest... no, He is your rest RIGHT NOW, today! He is there for you to rest in RIGHT NOW in whatever situation you are in! He is holding onto you! He cares for you! He loves you even though you're not perfect and can't get free of stuff you wish you were free of! He sees a lot more than you do, and He is not freaking out as much as you are because He knows the future and He's got you in His hand! Trust Him for your future! Bless you in JESUS CHRIST and in the sufficiency of His Spirit! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on May 11, 2009) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1556 Registered: 7-2003  |
Doc my Brother, I'm going to have to gently disagree with you. Biblically speaking, the two ends of the spectrum are *NOT* "License" and "Legalism". I think Galatians (among other places) makes it very clear what the two ends of the specturm are biblically speaking. According to the Apostle Paul, the two ends of the spectrum are "Flesh" and "Spirit". It's important to understand that both License and Legalism are on the "Flesh" end of the spectrum. Whether a person is erroring in License or erroring in Legalism they are in error and are on the "Flesh" end of the spectrum. Both of these errors are the antithesis of living in the Spirit. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9803 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Chris. Everything can truly be categorized as "flesh" or "Spirit". That's why the discussion about "works" seems never to be resolved; the distinction between what is of the flesh and what is of the Spirit is rarely identified. "Obedience" can be either in the flesh or a product of the Spirit—and the origin determines its true nature. Obedience, even careful obedience, is filthy rags if it emanates from the flesh; it is a product of grace if it emanates from the Spirit. It is not "obedience" or "morality" or "principles of the law" which are defensible or indefensible. Rather, the source of those things is what determines whether they are products of death or of life. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1921 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, Chris. Amen! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 372 Registered: 2-2003 |
Bskillet, Sorry if I was not clear, I was not saying that this was my view, it most certainly is not, but the view of some Hungarian Calvinists I have met. My musing referred to the fact that Hungarians always manage not to have any assurance of salvation, no matter what theological view they (apparently) hold and that is rather sad. I am not sure of the reason, but it could be that the "prevailing religious atmosphere" here is Roman Catholicism, and it does seem to have left its mark on the general view of God that most people have, whether they are church-goers or not. And, of course, in RC there is no assurance of salvation. Adrian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1924 Registered: 10-2002 |
Adrian, Your writing about Hungarians makes me think and stirs something in my spirit from His Spirit. Question: have you asked God about why it is that so many Hungarians don't feel assured about their salvation? It may have some connection to Catholicism, but I'd recommend not immediately looking for a "doctrinal" answer on this, but let the Holy Spirit bring something to you about it. As I'm praying about this I feel the Spirit saying that there is a reason, and it is not a primarily "doctrinal" thing. I don't know what it is, mind you, but it is not something we'll immediately understand by looking at doctrinal heritage. It may be something more cultural, or there may be a spiritual atmosphere in the country that is keeping people down, so to speak. I think that is likely it -- the spiritual atmosphere. I am moved and weeping from my spirit (from the inside out) as I write it. I could ramble a bit more, but I'll stop here. Please pray and ask Him about this, and ask Him why it is that Hungarians so often feel unassured about being safe in Him. Share whatever comes to mind as you pray and ask Him about that. Bless you in Jesus, brother. In His love, in His heart and in prayer, Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on May 12, 2009) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 373 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Chris, I'm sorry (again), but I'm confused. You seem to be saying the same as I was, so where is the disagreement? You have expressed it very concisely, and I agree with you completely, so thanks for clarifying. So, maybe it depends on what "spectrum" we are talking about. Perhaps if I say that legalism and antinomianism are at opposite ends of the spectrum of carnal behaviour, and this contrasts with life in the Spirit which involves neither, or excludes both. Will that do? I think it is useful to distingish the two types of "carnal" problem, however, because sometimes people can be so concerned about not falling into one of them, that they fall into the other almost without noticing it. Paul in Galatians, for instance, spends most of the letter fighting legalism, because that was the presenting problem, but he certainly condemns licence too, as in his list of "works of the flesh" (Gal 5:19-21). Other books of the NT, like James and Jude, put more emphasis on opposing the error of licence, e.g. James 2:14-26, Jude 3-4. I have been doing some studies of revival movements recently, and so often movements which clearly began with a move of the Spirit, ended up going into legalism. (For instance, the Reformation itself, the Great Awakenings, the Welsh revivals, etc. - I'm not talking about Adventism here, as that was a spurious reform movement from the very beginning). | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 374 Registered: 2-2003 |
Oops, I did not mean to press "send" yet... It seems that when the work of the Spirit starts to abate someone, people look around, and wonder how to continue, and then start making rules for people to keep, which pushes the Spirit out even more. It appears that people are very clear about lawlessness not being an option, as it is clearly "of the flesh" even to unbelievers, but it is combated by legalism, and not be continuing in the Spirit. What has not been clear, is that legalism is just as much of the flesh as antinomianism. The reason it is so insidious, is that it "looks right". Legalistic righteousness can look almost like a true walk of faith, and yet is it not. It is counterfeit. Externally it looks like real Christianity, but it is not. And, unfortunately, legalistic teaching produces "Pharisees" rather than disciples of Jesus. In spite of all the warnings in the Bible, whole theological systems have been built on one or other of these two carnal errors. So, what I was trying to say, is that by living according to the Spirit, we can avoid both. Adrian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1925 Registered: 10-2002 |
Amen, Adrian! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 303 Registered: 8-2008 |
No worries Adrian! I knew you weren't agreeing with the statement. I thought I'd offer the response I would give. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9812 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, your post above about revivals ending up in legalism is really interesting. I believe you are right. It seems to me that, when I think about "reform", etc., I always end up at the same place: reform and revival are not possible to sustain apart from each person submitting to the Lord Jesus and giving up his/her "rights" to Him. I've thought about this phenomenon often in relationship to the recurring tendency for people in this country to legislate "godly" behavior. In a civil setting, laws do keep a society ordered and protect people from the violence and invasion of others. Yet not even a well-ordered society is necessarily spiritually good. Only if individuals submit to God in repentance and become part of the body of Christ is there any hope of true godliness. After all, the babies of Christian parents are still born depraved. They still must grow and be born again. They cannot be appropriated into God's community by family connections or by an outside act, such as infant baptism, imposed on them. Each person must be born of the Sprit individually. Making rules to perpetuate reform does not result in true reformation. Unless people take seriously their call to surrender to the Lord Jesus, rules only make them "lawful dead people". Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1995 Registered: 8-2004 |
Colleen wrote: "rules only make them "lawful dead people"." Mary writes: "As opposed to 'awful dead people'??"  (Message edited by helovesme2 on May 12, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4770 Registered: 9-2006  |
Or people who are awfully dead? By the way I saw a dead possum in the middle of the road, he was probably an Adventist possum. I left him lay to collect a little more flavor. River |
