| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2744 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, yes, I've found it very ironic that the "third angel's message" actually teaches eternal hell! As Yogi would say, "Who woulda thunk it?!" Jeremy | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2008 |
These are issues I am still struggling with. I don't think I still believe in soul sleep. For some reason,the thought of going to Heaven right away makes me less scared of death. I'm not entirely sure why, as with soul sleep, my next conscious thought would be when Jesus comes anyhow. Hell is a whole different story. ON a personal level, well, I"m not going there, so it doesn't seem to pressing to figure it out. BUT when I think of Adventist fmaily wqho have dies, or will in the future...it's a whole different story. Three of my prandparents have died. I alway knew from how I was taught that opne grandfather wouldn't be going to Heaven, unless something changed in the last moment of his life. He was raised SDA, as as far as I know, never formally left the church. But, he was preident a union, and he "knew" unions were wrong. I didn't worry much after he died, as I believed he was sleeping. My other grandfather I was pretty sure would go to Heaven,(he was and SDA when he died.) but again., found it very comforting that he was sleeping. Now I don't know. I tend to think they are either in Heaven or sleeping. The alternative really upsets me. I know with the one I always thought woudl be saved, when I first started to think soul sleep might not be right, I thought "wow, I wonder if grandpa was surpised to go to Heaven right away. Must have been quite a shock!" It's just really upsetting me that one or both coudl be in hell right now. Sorry if this post isn't making much sense, it actually just occured to me reading this thread, and I'm pretty upset about it. It's actually the thought of teh grandfather in the labour union that is upsetting me. Like what if he never accepted God, because all he ever knew was the warped SDA view. What if he relaized he could never be perfect, and just gave up and decided that he'd just have the best life here he could, and oh well, hell isn't forever? That was my attitude for a few years. So for those who believe in eternal hellfire, how do you deal with this? When I first left the church, it initially made me feel much better about the grandafther who was president of the union. It meant it was ok for him to do that. It was ok he owned a bar. That he didn't keep Sabbath. That he married a non-adventist. Suddenly there was chance he could be in Heaven. Now, I don't know. I get that understanding and knowing all this isn't a matter of salvation, but it is REALLY upsetting me right now.  I hope this is at least readable. I'm too upset to poof read it. Sorry. ETA: I edited out the name of the union he was president of. I forgot this wasn't the members only section (Message edited by angelcat on May 15, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9848 Registered: 12-2003  |
Angelcat, First of all, God takes responsibility for revealing Himself to people. No one will be lost because they "didn't have a chance". Moreover, people will not be lost on the basis of their sins. Just as people are not saved by works, they are not lost by works, either. People are saved by being born again when they place their faith in Jesus—and God is fully responsible for revealing Himself to each person. If salvation is even a little bit because of works or because of having the right doctrine or knowledge, then hell is pretty unfair. But God is not only eternally and ultimately just; He is infinitely merciful. You can trust Him with your loved ones. Keri, what you said about the relief and the releasing of the ultimate concern to God and receiving Him as completely sovereign so resonates with me. I still can't quite articulate the cause and shape of it, but when I came to see hell as eternal, letting the Bible's words mean what they said, I had such a sense of relief. It's hard to explain, but truly man is not the last word. God is not subject to our machinations. To know that God actually can accurately evaluate the condition of a heart and justly deal with that heart, both within time and for eternity, takes such a load off my shoulders. I can trust Him—both to be infinitely merciful and just with unrepented sin. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2008 |
Angelcat, I just wanted you to know that I read your post just before going to bed. I was praying for you as I fell asleep. Praying for your peace and comfort. The other thought I had - was what Colleen voiced - so I won't repeat here - I just wanted you to know I was praying for you. Do I have it all figured out - I don't. Many times I'm lost in the theology that is discussed on the forum. Yet, I'm growing and I'm trusting that growth to Him. Sometimes I successfully feel good about releasing the growth to Him and sometimes I feel restless, but He watches over me even in the restless times. Each of our journeys is being orchestrated by Almighty God. We can trust Him with what we have learned thus far and what is yet to understand. I have learned that giving God His Sovereignty has released me to see His grace in new ways. Colleen, I appreciate your last line; I can trust Him - both to be infinitely merciful and just with unrepented sin. I do not fully understand how He can be 100% just and 100% merciful. But the Bible says He IS and so I trust even though my mind has a hard time wrapping itself around the concept. Blessings for all, as we journey together, Keri P.S. The Psalm 55 passage was not the best to have listed above. I realize the context of the Psalm is not one used to give clarity to the doctrine of hell. It was verses 15 (and the let them go down to Sheol alive that had caught my attention) and verse 23 that I was thinking of when I posted. Sorry, for the unclear scripture passage that I used . | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2009 |
I still believe that there are some who are at a place in their journey where they will not be able to hear/understand this thread quite yet. And it may be very, very traumatic to them. It takes some folks longer than others to get to the "relief" stage that Keri & Colleen are talking about. River, I like you and I love you! If I didn't trust you and the other folks on here, I would not have shared from my heart as I did. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4812 Registered: 9-2006  |
Angelcat asked how we deal with it. For me, its darned hard to deal with. In a case of where the situation is iffy, its a lot easier because I just don't know what their condition was at time of death. In the case of my wifes grandfather I had a great burden for him before he died because he flat rejected God and would have none of it. He knew God existed, but he rejected him, that is hard to deal with knowing his eternal home, that's where the man went and there is no question in my mind about it and frankly I have never gotten over it and I never will while I live. In his final hours he begged my wife to help him, he thrashed and fought and he kept saying they were coming to get him. The fact is he rejected God by choice. My wife will not talk about it to this day because she knows too, its just too hard for her to deal with, I loved her grandfather, she loved him more. Hell is a serious business, a lot people don't like hard preaching, but hell is harder and there is no reprieve. In a recent thread I warned the leaders in Adventism who know the truth and still cling to false doctrine, who take their comforts of their jobs and position over the rightness of the simplicity of the gospel. People don't like that, they say its unkind and unloving. Well...I don't like to know someone has gone off to hell more than I don't like preaching, but if the Holy Spirit calls on me I aim to preach it straight. So how do I deal with it? Its awful hard to deal with Angelcat and it ain't no joke. We all everyone ought to be disturbed, we can't help the ones who are dead, but we can reach out to the living with the simplicity of the gospel and pray for them earnestly. We have only a fleeting moment to reach out for their sakes. God bless me and my wife, my son and his wife, us four and no more ain't the message. I'll say this one last thing on this subject Angelcat, you need to give the dead to the Lord, there is no reversal, but you can reach out for the living, pray earnestly for them. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1442 Registered: 6-2006  |
I'm curious. I often hear the "why would a loving God" argument against eternal Hell from current SDAs and formers. My question is, had it ever occurred to anyone that God let his own son be publicly humiliated, scourged, tortured and hung on a tree until death? And Jesus was completely sinless! It's the first thing I think of when I hear "Why would a loving God?". We know, of course, how it turned out in hindsight. However, it still doesn't diminish the horrific death Jesus suffered on the cross. As an SDA had any of you ever thought about it that way? Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4813 Registered: 9-2006 |
Their argument defaults into 'duration' my dear.  Where you been off to, grease or somewhere? You know I pine away for you. Oh cruel world where is my Lannie Went a camping, got dirt on her Fannie Followed a rabbit til he climbed a tree Said 'that's weird, well I'll be' Said 'Kids let go and get outta here' Its Disney land for us! If we have to take a bus! These woods ain't no place for me to be Dirt on my fannie, a rabbit up a tree Never mind old River, that old cuss With his never ending pining And kicking up a fuss We'll go see Minny and Goofy and Jack And when we get there We may never come back! Disney is better, than skeeters and snakes Drinking bad water, getting belly aches Whose idea was it to camp anyway? Its off to Disney land, get in the car I say And if anybody ever mentions camping again I'll put a hole in his head A knot on his chin River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 458 Registered: 10-2008 |
Leigh Anne, I have never thought of it in the way that you expressed it. Thank you for the insight. I wonder if evangelical Adventists don't default to a loving God - but don't know how to handle the justice of God or His wrath. I believe that is what I did. For me, I was quite prideful that I understood or leaned more towards the love of God (that was me and that nasty thing called pride). I'm thinkin' mercy doesn't exist without some form of understanding that justice should be served. Anyways, ... Another thought that crossed my mind is I don't want my long post above to be misunderstood. I don't believe that by excepting A = B will occur. In other words by accepting the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment - somehow a former then begins to see a sovereignty of God they didn't have before ... I don't think we can deduce it to that. But I can tell you that my experience does surround that event and for me it was by God's design in my journey. Musings, ... Keri P.S. River - I'm actually good with camping or Disney Land (preferably Epcot Center ) | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 487 Registered: 5-2004 |
That "why would a loving God"...point is exactly why a lot of more progressive SDA's are moving to view the blood atonement as unnecessary. If you can say that about punishment, then you CAN say that about the cross...end result, "why would a loving God require any type of punitive measure" and the resulting conclusion that that isn't the nature of God at all. sigh | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well! Eternal Torment vs. Annihilation seems to be much more of a hot subject than I had anticipated. Here's my view: I don't care a wit about logicing out if God is loving --> I KNOW He is! I'm not interested in whether He's just --> I already KNOW that He is! That He's wrathful and vengful when roused to anger? --> Read the Bible! It says that He's that too! So why are we having this discussion about the attributes of God? They are not in question. What is in question is What Scripture Says About What Happens To The Wicked When They Die. I don't think it's something we've been given fully to understand. I happen to see texts that come down on both sides of the issue. Further, in what way is it "dangerous" to believe one way or the other? We are told that it's "dangerous" to rely on anyone besides Jesus Christ as our righteousness. But nowhere are we told that what you believe will happen next to the wicked will in any way impact on your salvation. The ambiguity of Scripture and the absence of a clear command for belief place this issue (and many others)in the disputable category. So Let's Dispute --> But Let's Not Revert Back To Our SDA Roots. Everything does not have to be nailed down. Everyone does not have to agree with you on every single thing. It is refreshing to entertain a difference of opinion and explore each others' insights. It is NOT refreshing to be told it's "dangerous". My $.02, for whatever it's worth. Pegg | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4815 Registered: 9-2006 |
$.02 is worth exactly $.02's Pegg. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 442 Registered: 7-2008  |
Quote drom Pegg..... __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Everything does not have to be nailed down. Everyone does not have to agree with you on every single thing. It is refreshing to entertain a difference of opinion and explore each others' insights. It is NOT refreshing to be told it's "dangerous". __________________________________________________________________________________________________ I agree... The world needs Christ, not absoluteness of doctrine. Noone will be lost if they have a loving relationship with the savior...Noone will be lost if they dont got the facts straight on Biblical doctrine. ..It really IS about Jesus...It always has been...It always will be...Disputing doctrine is a waste of time. Such disputes will never lead a lost soul to a loving relationship with Jesus...And isnt THAT what really matters anyway? ...Animal...Christ is ALL that really matters | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1676 Registered: 4-2000  |
How many commandments are you falling short of actually keeping? While it is not difficult to teach that a certain number of commandments should be kept, but it quite another matter to actually "keep" those commandments. In the case of Seventh-day Adventists, they primarily point to the Ten Commandments as a moral compass. They proudly proclaim to be observing at least "ten" commandments versus Christians keeping only "nine" commandments. Does this mean that Adventists don't ever commit adultery, don't have any secular thoughts on Saturdays, or never dishonor their parents in some way? I sincerely doubt it. The flip side of this is that Adventists are falling short of keeping ten commandments versus Christians falling short of keeping nine commandments (smile). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2006 |
I fall short of "keeping" every single one, Dennis. I'm certain you do too, and so do our SDA families and friends. (Sssh! That's a secret.) We have Jesus now, though. He paid the price for all of my screw-ups. He clothes me continually in His own clothes before Almighty God. Our Actions Are No Longer Aimed At Keeping Some Rules --> What Matters, Rather, Is How Our Behavior May Reflect On Our Father. Pegg | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1677 Registered: 4-2000 |
Now back to the important topic of this thread. You see, once you are over 60, you better post a thought immediately or you may forget it. However, growing old has one advantage: you'll never have to do it over again (smile). Annihilation does not constitute the ultimate punishment. Rather, annihilation would constitute the end of punishment. It would mean relief for the wicked in hell who are suffering for their sins. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilation to be true. By the way, the reason they are suffering eternally for their sins is because their sins remain forever before the Father as unconfessed and unforgiven. Their sins are truly cosmic treason and a crime. Our SDA friends repeatedly forget to remember that one has to be alive in order to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10b NASB). We can only appreciate God's grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. Moreover, the truthfulness of traditionalism (not conditionalism) is confirmed by the fact that it coheres well with other biblical teachings. Traditionalism correctly integrates Christology with the doctrine of hell. After 1000 years, the beast and the false prophet (Rev. 19:20) are still alive in the "lake of fire and brimstone" as indicated in Rev. 20:10 (notice the present tense "are also" in this passage). All in all, most of what we know about hell was taught by Jesus Himself (i.e., Matt. 25:46, etc.). Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4816 Registered: 9-2006 |
evangelical annihilationists unite with many Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists and liberals, yet you say lets not go back to our Adventist roots in this argument. Its ok to teach any old slop just as long as you nail the cross on the end of it, is that where we got to? Or we break the commandments so that makes teaching a false doctrine ok? Should we discuss hell outside the framework of the gospel? It is part of gospels, not an alternative where we can pick and choose to demanded to be quiet about. Choosing annihilation because of discomfort with the way the bible reads is not exactly what I call fit for debate. Annihilationists in the very nature of it sets aside the immortality of the soul. Luke 16:22-24 describes signifies continued existence in pain. Rev. 14:10 Rev. 19:20 and Matthew 13:42,50 confirm that. 2 Thes. 1:9 extends this. Then after proven unfounded doctrine the Annihilationists usually goes to special pleading and whining about lack of Christian love. Despite the fact that there ain't no decent theological seminary in the country that teaches Annihilation-ism, the Annihilationist will invariably bluster and babel around a bit then hunt a rabbit hole. I just called yall and raised you four cents. River P.S. I decided to be easy on you today, I feel sort of mellow. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4817 Registered: 9-2006 |
I was going to say something else, but I forgot what it was. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2746 Registered: 10-2004 |
Very good points, Dennis. If the wicked are able to be annihilated (have their punishment ended), then that would have to mean that they were able to atone for their sins. But if they are able to atone for their own sins, then why couldn't they be taken to heaven instead of being annihilated? (Unless one were to say that the annihilation is God's "mercy"--but then there would be no justice!) Or, if the annihilation itself is considered to be the atonement for their sins, then that is still a heretical and blasphemous concept to think that sinful beings (including satan himself!!) can atone for their own sins. (Of course Adventism goes one step further and says that satan atones for the sins of the righteous also, as the scapegoat!!) The fact that an eternal hell seems "mean," "cruel," or "harsh" is actually evidence that it is true. Hell is not something nice. God's wrath is real--and it's not a "lovey-dovey" wrath. Hell has no love or mercy mixed in--it is pure, full strength, unmixed wrath and justice (see Revelation 14:10). It is supposed to be abhorrent--and cause people to see a need for salvation in Jesus Christ! Which do you think Satan would prefer for himself? Annihilation (although it would be impossible for a spirit to be burned up by a literal, physical lake of fire) or being "tormented day and night forever and ever" (as Revelation 20:10 says will happen)? Whichever one satan would prefer, why would he get it? Also, annihilationism leads to the belief that Jesus Christ was annihilated on the Cross. It also leads to the denial of spirits. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 16, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2009 |
Can you give me the Bible evidence of an "immortal soul" before the new birth? At new birth we get eternal life, and when we die our spirits go to heaven until they are again united with our glorified (immortal) bodies at Jesus's return. But I can't see eternal life in heaven or in hell without the new birth. Hec |
