| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 494 Registered: 5-2004 |
So, a few seemingly random occurances prompted these thoughts: Colleen mentioned in another thread yesterday (I think) about feeling a lack of patience with Adventist "words" (I reference this very loosely) and how they say one thing publically, and mean something totally different internally or even say something different internally. Today I met with my weekly Jehovah's Witness's (hey, they show up at the door and ask if I'd like to talk about the Bible...what's a girl supposed to say). And I dig a bit deeper in the discussion today and realize that they don't believe God is all-knowing. Specifically, in how our conversation went, they don't believe God knew Adam and Eve were going to sin. I brought up a few texts to the contrary, but it didn't really fly with them. So, after they leave I look online for a good ex-JW site (looking for resources similar to FAF) and run across a site. I see a book and follow the links and read several reviews. The book is entitled, "Releasing the Bonds" and is written by Steven Hassan who was once a member of a cult himself and his parents stepped in a did a "deprogramming" on him to set him free. His methods are a little different. However, it got me thinking about this whole issue of mind control or group think. I know that many get uncomfortable when the word 'cult' starts getting used, and I am in the public forum so I do want to be careful. However, in just generalized terms it seems that all the cult groups have this in common. More particularly to Adventism, this Mind Control aspect is seen from re-writing historical facts: painting the Nicean fathers as being already seduced by unBiblical teachings and so the counsils were stating/forming Christian teachings...when the truth is that they were stating the opposite (like Jeremy said on the Trinity thread), what the church had been teaching and how they were making statements against the errors. Both Biblical history and Church history are either vaguely taught or blatantly rewritten in Adventist circles. With my JW friends this morning...as I made the case for God's sovereignty and all-knowingness, they contended that 'predestination' would make us all robots and that would mean nothing to God...he'd have created us that way if that's what He wanted. I contended that Psalms says a mans days are numbered (known) by God before he's even born, and that the plan of redemption was in place before the foundation of the world...but in the context of my current ramblings, they're position of adamatly refusing this information because it denies free choice, reminded me so much of how I thought as an SDA because I was so contitioned to believe "certain things" that the church taught and staked everything on that anything to the contrary was just not true (in my mind...I couldn't look at the facts). It made me really ponder this element of truth...including Christ's claims to BE the truth. And how truth/facts can play into our discussions with anyone (specifcally SDA's) who are involved in a cult. I'm not saying it's a good idea to beat them over the head with the truth. However, gently presenting truth and pressing them to document what they're saying (that isn't true) by reliable sources might be an approach that enables the person to start thinking for themselves and leave the pat 'group think' behind them. It seems the faster a person can leave behind what they are told to think, the faster they can start to really grasp what reality is...and thereby what truth is. I don't know if this means anything to anyone else...just some random thoughts I was processing this morning about truth and relevance opposed to mind control. And how Adventism is really about mind control (though not overtly)....Like, around here, anyway...we have continual programming on how wonderful and miraculous Ellen Whites formative years were, and how God directed her ministry was, and how miraculous and proving the early SDA history is. When you juxtapose that to the reality, an SDA isn't prepared for it because they think all the SDA bylines that they've heard their whole lives are the truth. Or that it's a fact that DM Canright renouced on his death bed (when it's not). Or that the pope changed Sabbath to Sunday (when he didn't). Or that by beholding we become changed is in the Bible (when it's not). etc, etc. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2004 |
So, I'm still researching for my JW studies, and ran across this quote from freeminds.org
Sound familiar? | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 495 Registered: 7-2008  |
Hello Esther... I really enjoyed reading your posting. I really believe that Adventism uses mind control in their attempt to keep people in their church. In my experience, they told you what to read and then told you how to interpret it( Bible/EGW). Especially when it came to Bible prophecy. THEIR interpretation was right and everyone elses position was wrong. You arent allowed to think for yourself on these issues. Since leaving Adventism(1 yr ago last month), I enjoy so much the reading of Scripture. So refreshing and more meaningful to me now. I open up my Bible and I expect God to teach me wonderful things to help me to grow up spiritually. Never a boring moment. I feel free to ask questions and seek God for the answers. Adventism doesnt encourage spiritual growth. They just want you to reflect their beliefs in word and deed. They dont want you to think and meditate about what you read. They got EGW to do that for you(cough, cough). And the fear factor is their ace in the hole. If you break the sabbath...watch out !!! God will zap ya with lightning. Question EGW?..You might get the Mark of the Beast! I praise God for the freedom we all have in Christ today. Thank you Lord for the Cross of Calvary !!! ....Animal | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 496 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thanks Animal. I agree, that fear is very real. It's why we couldn't trust formers, couldn't trust Christians, couldn't do anything or associate with anyone who wasn't Adventist. It's a hedge...to keep us Adventist. So, how do we lovingly and gently (fully realizing the tactics) break down hedge for those we love? Is this even possible with out God specifically acting on their heart? Probably not. However, I must continue to believe that if He called me...then he must love my family at least as much as He did/does me. I guess I don't believe there's going to be any one solution to the problem...just still thinking about how that mind control plays into it, and how to tactfully cause cracks to emerge in the group think. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 496 Registered: 7-2008 |
Whats the phrase...Actions speak louder than words?... Words can often confuse. But a life that is lived by following the Holy Spirit tells the true story... ...Lord, help us to let your light shine thru us and touch the hearts of those who are in darkness concerning the truth of Christ. May they see Your love and Your truth in how we live our lives for you.....Amen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 465 Registered: 1-2007 |
Esther, What a great post and how true. It can be used anywhere there is mind control just by changing the name. A book that helped me to understand is written by a woman who was once in a mind controlling church. The name of the book is titled "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, if you are interested. I know very little about the JW's and how they are taught to interpret the bible. With the sda they are taught very well on how to proof text when talking to others and that is what makes it hard to get through to them plus the fear of the sabbath. I know for me it a took awhile for me to get beyond the text-proofing. It took me studying the IJ that broke the bond of text-proofing. So far as egw was concerned I never did have much stock in her. I was not born an sda and as a child I was taught no-one is above God's word and that is where the sda like to put her even if they deny it. To me them knowing the church puts her above God and then denys it to others is nothing but liars. Gail | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9957 Registered: 12-2003  |
Esther, great posts! Very true; you've hit the nail on the head. That inability to question one's beliefs when they conflict with what they've been taught is what drives Adventists as well as JWs and Mormons. I agree that there's probably not much we can do to pierce this veil except to pray for God's intervention. I also agree that if we ask them for tangible support for their claims, that will probably begin to cause dissonance, and dissonance is what finally makes people so uncomfortable they have to relieve their minds. I'll never forget our neighbors continuing to ask us, "Where did you find that in the Bible?" when we would offer interpretations of passages when we had Bible studies with them during those three years during which our defenses finally went down. Great posts! Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 205 Registered: 3-2009 |
I think this is true, Colleen. I believe that it is nothing short of a miracle from God that anyone leaves a cult-like organization. I don't think anyone here on this forum knows the "magic words" that are guaranteed to break through that veil. If you have 'em, please share, so I can put 'em to good use on all my loved ones  Esther, your original post reminded me of a recent discussion with an SDA colleague of mine who is very knowledgeable on a wide array of fields including world history, Christian church history, anthropology, sociology and psyc. Wow, it was interesting! Whenever I came up with an EGW weakness, this person countered that there are the same weaknesses in Christianity in general. This person reminded me many times that these issues are not at all simple. Basically what I took away from the converstaion is that there are problems with all denominations/beliefs, so yeah, there are problems with Adventism, but so what? These problems are quite minor compared with other denominations. No religious group has a perfect belief system anyways. Here are some examples from our discussion: 1. Me: EGW contradicts herself. Colleague: So does the Bible! 2. Me: EGW plagiarized. Colleague: Bible writers plagiarized one another without giving credit, also. 3. Me: EGW didn't have mainstream, Christian view of Trinity. Colleague: Well, that's because the Trinitarians long ago killed off anyone who disagreed with them. 4. Me: EGW said Jesus was "divinity lite" (i.e., my paraphrase for the idea that He laid aside some of His diety while on earth). This is not Biblical. Colleague: Well, I believe EGW is right on this. If Jesus saw past the grave, then His sacrifice wouldn't have meant anything at all. Me: Many Christians and Bible texts contradict this view. Colleague: But if God knows everything, then there is no human free will. Me: Actually, there are several Bible texts that suggest that God does know everything and that human free will is indeed limited. Colleague: Pained look, but no response. 5. Me: The church needs to repent of 1844 and renounce EGW. Colleague: The SDA church won't renounce EGW just like the Lutherans won't renounce Luther even though he was a drunk most of the time and half his writings don't make sense. Me: From what I know, Luther understood and promoted the true Gospel. Colleague: But he was always drunk. Me: But what does that have to do with the Gospel? Etc. etc....you get the picture.  I must insert at this point that my colleague totally respects my decision to leave Adventism and has been nothing but kind and gracious to me. But, there was a downside to it all. Normally, I enjoy a lively, respectful debate on any topic. However, when the conversation ended, it struck me how SDAs argue in such a way that it seems to leave a questioning person two options: 1. Remain an Adventist or 2. Give up Christianity all together. What a horrible choice to make!  If it weren't for the support of the formers, I'm not sure I would have seen another option so clearly. (This is where I deeply grieve for all SDA young people, with whom I have contact each day) The "third" option is that there are healthy, functional Christians who are born again, love Christ, and are open-minded without compromising the fundamentals. I want to thank each of you for being a part of my healing journey. Again, I'm just amazed at how small the SDA god is! I'm shocked at how SDAs just assume that God conforms to their own admittedly finite understanding. It really is astonishing. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4967 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don't believe there is much, if any, of a chance of a person who has been borned into cult to come out without the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. So what is your part? After Pentecost the pattern and example laid down for us is that the disciples left out from there and went to work, went everywhere preaching the gospel. Says Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. After Pentecost they didn't just go back home and sit down, they went to work and the Lord worked with them. An Adventist working to 'Baptise a person into the 'church' doesn't have the acompanying signs of salvation and restoration following him, so he has no fruit for his labor. All he is doing as far as I can see is moving a person from one lost condition to another lost condition, so in the end he will have nothing to show for his labor. But as you go preaching the word the Lord will confirm his word. Your not preaching you, you are preaching the word. Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Basicly that our job and thats our part in this, is to be witnesses to him. Its not our job to decide who and who will not come to God through our ministering. River | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2008 |
Although it's something we already know and heard a million times, it always strike me how many SDA's will put down the Bible to defend EGW. If I have to water down what I consider the basis of my Faith just to defend something that I proclaim to be secondary, a "minor light"... What does remain? I think there's not much, if anything at all, after that... You're living in smoke, in a lie that you've made to be able to cope with the contradiction. It's really sad. This reminds me of something I have been thinking some time ago... In the fundamental beliefs they say that her writings are a continuous and authoritative source of truth... Hence, I understand, everything she wrote is authoritative, from the first to the last page... Including those things that many would prefer to ignore because make her look bad. Now, for years I heard many people, even pastors, saying that not everything she wrote was inspired... You know how the song goes. But I practically never heard anyone in the SDA church clearly stating what would be better to avoid from her writings. Only once I've heard a pastor telling his church which things they should avoid... But that was the most "evangelical-like" SDA church I've ever met. But, in any case, the upper levels of the church will never take that step on their own initiative, even if they'd think that way. And it's quite logical... That would greatly undermine her role and would alienate that large part of the church which already thinks that she's not taken as seriously as it should be. They are possibly afraid of the possibility of the formation of a separate group that would take away a lot of people. This is just my opinion, but many of the fundamental beliefs look to me as if they are written in a somewhat ambiguous way... So people can interpret them in the way they prefer, and that way keep everybody happy into the church. For the "unity" that, supposedly, does not exist in other churches. In definitive, just to keep the status quo and avoid large changes. Thing is, when the changes come from God... They are large and there is no way to prevent them! What do you think? | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 600 Registered: 10-2008 |
Interesting ... This morning I was reading from John. I'm in John 3. And I read and journaled John 3:1-6. The new birth ... Jesus keeps responding to Nicodemus with this phrase, "I tell you the truth ..." Nicodemus approaches Jesus to start with by saying "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God." Nicodemus knew, but he didn't know. Jesus didn't just come from God - He WAS God. Now look at John 3:10 (I read ahead ) 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." John 3:20-21; ESV If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John 1:6; ESV Change of mind from what we know (like Nicodemus) to Who we know is "Truth" is truly a mystery of the Holy Spirit. And we must be willing to admit we DIDN'T Know to begin with. We must be willing to let the Light expose the darkness within ... Then we can REALLY know. Repentance is vital - to be born of water ... washed of our "knowledge" so that we can KNOW. It is interesting the progression of this conversation with Nicodemus. First, Jesus is approached as a Rabbi, teacher from God. Jesus tells Nicodemus about the Son of Man and references Moses (OT). And finally ends in John 3:16 with the Son of God. Jesus slowly shows Nicodemus his error in Rabbi come from God to Son of God. It is interesting that Adventists say that they have fellowhship with Him - and they desire to be considered a part of Evangelical fellowship. But they still walk in darkness and lie and do not practice truth. The truth of scripture and the Truth of Jesus. Just some thoughts, Keri | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1456 Registered: 6-2006  |
Seekinglight, this of course, has nothing to do with sharing the gospel with your coleague, but I wanted to make it clear that Martin Luther didn't claim to be a prophet and Lutherans do not regard him, or claim him to be a prophet. HUGE difference! I've heard that from other SDA's and it just makes me mad. It's their "well everyone else does it" excuse and it's lame. Also, Martin Luther drank the very last few years of his life. He was not a lifelong drunk as your friend suggested. You wrote - " it struck me how SDAs argue in such a way that it seems to leave a questioning person two options: 1. Remain an Adventist or 2. Give up Christianity all together. What a horrible choice to make!" That's not by accident, which is another reason for the cult label. My SDA MIL once told me that "SDA's never leave the church and if they do they never go anywhere else." It's taught by families and in churches and at SDA schools. Indoctrinate and protect. Stick with us or give up. Really? Are they really encouraging people to stop believing in God? After grieving the Holy Spirit, I don't believe there could be a worse sin. Hang in there! Leigh Anne | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1653 Registered: 5-2007  |
Leigh Anne, Excellent point: "Stick with us or give up". By the time I was sixteen I was fully indoctrinated. So, when I gave up being a "good Adventist", I joined the world. It was only by God's mercy that I was introduced to the real gospel and assurance of salvation. Romans Chapter Eight is my favorite place in the Bible because when I finally realized that nothing could separate me from the love of God...well...all the garbage theology began to fall away. Fearless Phil (what have I to fear?) | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 207 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ditto, Phil & amen! Thank you for your thoughts, everyone. I'm currently feeling a very deep grief for my students & of course, all SDAs. I would be crossing over into utter despair if I didn't constantly remind myself that Christ loves them much more than I do. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2004 |
Seekinglight, the one that bugs me the most on that list is #4. So if Christ knew He was providing salvation for everyone by suffering such agony, then it would have been for nothing? Or if He knew He would only be in the tomb for 3 days (as He said) then His sacrifice would have been for nothing? It just drives me crazy...and I used to believe this trash and say some of the same things. Lord forgive me! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2009 |
Lord help us! Two things:
Thanks, hec | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2009 |
Esther, I believed the trash, too. I regret that I promoted these beliefs to others and that people I trusted taught me from childhood these things were Biblical. *Lord, forgive us all for misrepresenting You. Please continue to reveal Yourself to us, so we're never confused like that again!* Hec, I agree with what you said. This forum and the ministry of the formers is invaluable to keep people from giving up on God all together when they leave Adventism. Perhaps the summer tour will bring even more visibility to the forum. BTW, for an explanation for the argument that the Trinitarians killed off all the Arians who disagreed with them, look on Jeremy's Trinity thread where he addresses this. We should really put together a list of all the SDA arguments we have encountered over the years and comment on them. That would be a great resource for those in transition. Any counter-arguments we use with our SDA friends aren't likely to be effective in the short-term, but perhaps those folks need to hear something 10+ times, and in slightly different ways, for something to sink in. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 498 Registered: 7-2008 |
Here are some questions to ask Adventists by us Formers....(Animal can be so cruel...he he he ) ************************************************************************************************** Why do Adventists want Christians to become Adventists? Do you believe that Adventism has the truth, and that no one else does? Do you think the SDA church is indispenable to God's salvation plan on earth in these last days? Why was there no Seventh-Day Adventist religion before 1844? Why was there no teaching of the "Investigative Judgment" before 1844? Why isn't this doctrine found in the Word of God? What kind of religious organization needs to hide what it really teaches its members? If Adventism is just another Protestant denomination, why the secrecy and doublespeak? Why do Seventh-Day Adventists only recognize Ellen G. White as a prophetess? Do you mean to tell me that no other prophets have appeared in nearly 2,000 years? Why did Jesus never tell us to look for another messenger or prophet? If what Seventh-day Adventists teach is true concerning Ellen G. White, then surely the Word of God would have foretold of the coming of such a great prophetess, who would reveal new doctrines. To the contrary, the Bible says nothing of the such. If what Seventh-Day Adventists teach is true, then what about all those Christian people who died between the cross of Christ, and the beginning of the Investigative Judgment of 1844? If Christ needed to complete His work of redemption, then why would He wait until 1844? Why did the White Party, suddenly feel a need to start a whole different religion? If Ellen G. White was such an inspired prophetess, why didn't God give her the revelation of the year 1844? Why would God give it to William Miller, a Baptist preacher, instead? Why do Adventists focus on highly symbolic and subjective apocalyptic writings rather than on such direct and powerful statements of Gospel as John 5:24, John 6:28-29, Romans 3:21-24 and Romans 4:4-8? If the General Conference is the highest authority God has upon the earth, and Ellen’s authority is higher than the GC, then what does that make Ellen? Do Seventh-day Adventists have direct access to Jesus Christ? If they do then why must they rely on a "lesser light" that points to a Greater Light? | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 212 Registered: 3-2009 |
I've been continuing to ponder this problem of the smallness of the SDA god. I've heard the argument consistently from both liberal and conservative SDAs that God MUST answer to human reasoning or He wouldn't be fair. They then staunchly hold this view in spite of the many, many texts that contradict it. I wanted to post the following quote for anyone out there who may be struggling reconcile their SDA view of God with the Biblical one. It's from a book called "Reason for God" by Timothy Keller. p. 113 that addresses a better way to approach the Bible when you are taking issue with something it says. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If we let our unexamined beliefs undermine our confidence in the Bible, the cost may be greater than we think. If you don't trust the Bible enough to let it challenge and correct your thinking, how could you ever have a personal relationship with God? In any truly personal relationship, the other person has to be able to contradict you. For example, if a wife is not allowed to contradict her husband, they won't have an intimate relatoinship. Remember the (two!) movies The Stepford Wives? The husbands of Stepford, Connecticut, decide to have their wives turned into robots who never cross the wills of their husbands. A Stepford wife was wonderfully compliant and beautiful, but no one would describe such a marriage as intimate or personal. Now, what happens if you eliminate anything from the Bible that offends your sensibility or crosses your will? If you pick and choose what you want to believe and reject the rest, how will you ever have a God who can contradict you? You won't! You'll have a Stepford God. A God, essentially, of your own making, and not a God with whom you can have a relationship and genuine interaction. Only if your God can say things that outrage you and make you struggle (as in a real friendship or marriage!), will you know that you have gotten hold of a real God and not a figment of your imagination. So, an authoritative Bible is not the enemy of a personal relationship with God. It is the precondition for it." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When you really love someone, you will highly value their thoughts and feelings. You don't just stubbornly make them "wrong" and expect intimacy to flourish. I see examples in the Bible where believers struggled to understand God--questioning His actions and His fairness. He so graciously and lovingly allows me to challenge Him (to struggle and protest in His arms, so to speak). In turn, I want to allow Him to challenge my faulty beliefs and instruct me through His Word. These are the processes present in any loving relationship. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1657 Registered: 5-2007 |
Seekinglight, Very profound! Something to ponder over as my wife and I pack up for our trip down to Roseburg Oregon. Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4973 Registered: 9-2006 |
Seekinglight, I think you finally found the correct word for it. Stepford God. I didn't see the movie, but I caught on to the point very nicely. Congratulations, you get a kewpy doll. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 603 Registered: 10-2008 |
Seekinglight, Profound! Thanks for your post. Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9969 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Seekinglight. The problem with the "God owes us an answer" mentality is that it neither considers the Scriptures authoritative nor does it place God at the center of reality. That attitude comes from a perspective of humanity being the center of all reality, with God existing to serve us and validate us, and creation being here for our support and benefit. God is Sovereign, and His gory is the ultimate value in the universe. We exist for His glory—not the other way around. It is only in the Bible that we find the truth about ourselves and God. When people make their beliefs about God a philosophy, God will make no sense. ONly when we are willing to accept a biblical worldview and allow God's own word to be our foundation and final authority will truth begin to make sense. I'm discovering (at deeper and deeper levels) that Adventism, with its low view of Scripture and its low view of inspiration is really quite a liberal religion. Adventism is carnal, focussing on the body and what we do with it. It even anthropomorphizes God, making him function like a glorified human. God is completely "other" than us. We are in his image because we are spiritual beings and have certain qualities of reason and creativity, but we are not God in any sense—nor is God human in any sense. Jesus has eternally a human body, but God is not mixed with human. Colleen | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 284 Registered: 10-2008  |
Esther, great insight. Even those SDAs who say it's OK to question will be quick to add "but you must come back and accept the reality that _________ insert SDA pet doctrine in the blank space. Rather than have the Bible as the final authority, it is the church itself that is the final authority Phil and Seekinglight Mega dittos Enoch | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2004 |
And Animal....excellent questions! I am going to refer to them! Thanks | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1462 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim02, please read this... (Thank you, Seekinglight, for posting that!) "If we let our unexamined beliefs undermine our confidence in the Bible, the cost may be greater than we think. If you don't trust the Bible enough to let it challenge and correct your thinking, how could you ever have a personal relationship with God? In any truly personal relationship, the other person has to be able to contradict you. For example, if a wife is not allowed to contradict her husband, they won't have an intimate relatoinship. Remember the (two!) movies The Stepford Wives? The husbands of Stepford, Connecticut, decide to have their wives turned into robots who never cross the wills of their husbands. A Stepford wife was wonderfully compliant and beautiful, but no one would describe such a marriage as intimate or personal. Now, what happens if you eliminate anything from the Bible that offends your sensibility or crosses your will? If you pick and choose what you want to believe and reject the rest, how will you ever have a God who can contradict you? You won't! You'll have a Stepford God. A God, essentially, of your own making, and not a God with whom you can have a relationship and genuine interaction. Only if your God can say things that outrage you and make you struggle (as in a real friendship or marriage!), will you know that you have gotten hold of a real God and not a figment of your imagination. So, an authoritative Bible is not the enemy of a personal relationship with God. It is the precondition for it." |
