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Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 223
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 1:44 pm: |     |
Yes, it was I  . I was the former studying with Keri and a couple of our SDA friends last night. They were concerned for my husband and I when we told them we were leaving. They said they wanted to show us information from the Bible concerning the IJ before we drop our membership. I asked if Keri would like to join us, and she kindly assented.
First, they pointed out that the word "judgment" in John 5:24 means that believers have no condemnation, not that they will avoid having a "day in court". He's learned in the seminary that the IJ is for the purpose of the "watching worlds"....not to determine believers' salvation as Keri mentioned above. I countered that their argument was not true to what EGW teaches--and went straight for her awful quote in GC p. 486 where it says that every single one of our thoughts and actions are being recorded to determine our salvation.
Then, he brought out the quote in COL (p. 310-311, if anyone is brave enough to look it up) Keri mentioned above. Here's the deal....EGW was referring to the wedding feast in Matt 22 where there is an individual found without the proper garment. EGW quotes Rev. 19:8, saying this garment represents the righteous deeds of the saints. So, my SDA friends were trying to argue that the person there responded to Christ's call to the feast, so they'd obviously accepted Jesus, but just didn't have the right works (therefore didn't have the correct garment).
I was very uncomfortable with this, and argued that the wedding garment HAS to represent Christ's sacrifice b/c we're not saved by works. My friends countered that the person without the garment had accepted Christ b/c they were at the feast. They asked me why the person was there if they didn't have Christ. I wasn't sure at the moment.
Later, when they left and I got my wits about me again, I really began to think about it. Then it occurred to me that perhaps the person without the garment represented someone who believes they have the right works but they aren't trusting in Jesus. Then, I thought about the story in Matt. 7 where Jesus said tells the individuals who did works in His name to depart b/c He never knew them.
So, what do you all think? Do you think the person who accepts the wedding invitation but doesn't have the garment is someone relying on himself instead of Christ? If so, how funny is it that EGW completely reverses this, saying that person is someone who has accepted Christ but doesn't have the right works?
Colleen, you said somewhere else that what we've been taught was right is wrong and what we were taught was wrong is right.
No wonder my brain is fried! |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 277
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 2:35 pm: | |
Very lightly.
Maybe the "Robeless" person at the wedding had accepted Christ the way the SDA do. But since he did not accept the robe of Christ, his merits, then he wouldn't stay. He might have been thinking, Ok, I accept Christ, but I'll do my own works. And obviously those were not good enough. He needed Christ's works, no his.
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9993
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 10:14 pm: | |
Yes, I think the person at the wedding feast without the wedding garments is a person who assumes he has a right to be there—either because of birth (as did the Jews of Jesus' day) or because of their works for God (as in those Jesus tells He never knew them).
The person without the wedding garment is thrown out of the feast. He doesn't get to stay, much less participate. The fact that the "undressed" person shows up doesn't mean s/he's" accepted Jesus". It just means they think they deserve to be there. Remember, Adventists do NOT understand being born again. The wedding garments are the righteousness of Christ credited to a person when they are born again having believed in Jesus' death and resurrection for their sin.
The person who shows up without wedding garments is one whom Jesus does not know—one who has not believed and been born again.
It's tough getting over that "other" paradigm, isn't it?! But God is faithful. He completes what He begins in us!
Colleen |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 519
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 11:43 am: | |
Let me bring something which I think it helps a little:
Seekinglight said
quote:So, my SDA friends were trying to argue that the person there responded to Christ's call to the feast, so they'd obviously accepted Jesus, but just didn't have the right works (therefore didn't have the correct garment).
For the sake of the argument, assuming that your friends are right, the parable will teach the nonsense that a true faith in Jesus does not manifest itself in works. That's exactly the opposite of what the epistle of James teaches, namely that a faith without works is dead, is no faith at all.
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
The argument is that such a faith even demons posses, and obviously this faith is not true faith, that kind of faith that embraces Christ. We are not dealing with true, authentic believers who need to add works to the faith that they posses, but with a faith that is not genuine, and cannot save.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14
The irony in all this story comes from the fact that Adventists love to use these texts from James and usually say that formers and evangelicals neglect the teaching of the epistle of James, but in the end, they end up contradicting it by affirming that someone can have true faith without works. Instead of getting Paul wrong and James right, they got both Paul and James wrong.
In my view, it is useful to follow adventists in their thinking because at some point they will come in conflict with other doctrines that are dear to them, and at this moment, some seeds of doubt may be planted in his mind.
Gabriel |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 227
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 12:41 pm: | |
Wow, thanks Gabriel. You provided much more insight into this parable! I will keep practicing the skill of following SDA logic. I'm still new at all this, since I've only been tranistioning for about 8 months now.
Everyone, please say a quick prayer for me because my SDA friends still want to study the IJ with me for a few weeks until they move out of town. It sounds like they're very intent on changing my mind--just being very good SDAs!
They want to head to Daniel ch. 7-9, which frankly, greatly confuse me. One thing I do know, they don't support the IJ! I asked them to read Hebrews, but I don't know if they'll do it. However, I don't feel familiar enough with Daniel to study it with an SDA.
Ok, if this is discussed on another thread, please forgive me, but I have a quick question:
The vision in Daniel 9 uses the "day for year" principle, correct? This would be the prophesy predicting Jesus.
I can see my friends using this argument to extend the "day for year" interpretation to the 2300 evening and morning prophesy in Daniel 8. *sigh* |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 514
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 3:04 pm: | |
Hello seekinglight...
They cant prove from scripture that the 2 time prophecies both start at 457B.C.
Here are somethings you can share with your friends concerning the Investigative Judgment....
Ellen White:
Every name is examined, starting with Adam…
"As the books of record are opened in the Judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. BEGINNING WITH THOSE WHO FIRST LIVED UPON THE EARTH, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected." The Great Controversy [1888 edition], p. 483
BIBLE:
God already knows who are His own
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep…" John 10:14
"The Lord knoweth them that are His" 2 Tim. 2:19
According to the Bible, God already knows who are His sheep. He does not need 155 years to determine who is saved and who is lost.
Ellen White:
Every individual MUST pass the Investigative Judgment
"How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the Judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, EVERY INDIVIDUAL MUST STAND IN HIS LOT, at the end of the days." The Great Controversy [1888 edition], p. 483
BIBLE:
Believers in Christ do not enter into judgment
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24 RSV
Ellen White:
Our sins are NOT BLOTTED OUT until AFTER the investigative judgment
"But, according to the unerring word of God, every man will be judged and rewarded according as his works have been, and we are admonished to so speak and to so do as 'they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.' When sin has been repented of, confessed, and forsaken, then pardon is written against the sinner's name; BUT HIS SINS ARE NOT BLOTTED OUT UNTIL AFTER THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT." The Signs of the Times, May 16, 1895
BIBLE:
Our sins are blotted out when we repent
"I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee." Isaiah 44:22
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19
"…and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7
Ellen White:
By 1850, Jesus' work was "almost finished"
"I then saw Brother Edson that he must gird on the whole armor and stand in readiness to go, for a journey was before him, and that souls needed help and that JESUS' WORK WAS ALMOST FINISHED IN THE SANCTUARY..." (1850) Manuscript Releases Vol. 6, p. 250
BIBLE:
The Atonement was finished on the Cross
Jesus said, "It is finished." John 19:30
But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:12-14
The Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9
I hope these can be of help to you
your friend.....Animal |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 515
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 3:14 pm: | |
The following quotes are real good to show an Adventist who firmly believe in the 1844 date::::
I saw God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was his design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller. (Early Writings, p 232)
The Lord showed me that … His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until his hand was removed. (Review and Herald, Nov 1, 1850)
I saw the people of God, joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover it… God designed that his people should meet with a disappointment. (Spiritual Gifts, p 137)
Those statements aabove are really SAD !!!! If you read between the lines , they are saying that GOD used DECEPTION to lead them to "embrace "THE TRUTH""
Makes you want to both laff ane cry at the same time.
...Animal |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 228
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 4:39 pm: | |
Hey, Animal thanks much! I can definitely prove the IJ is wrong from the NT and from discrediting EGW. However, our friends seem to be insisting that we need to study Daniel and we've made an agreement not to use EGW at all from now on. I'm glad about not using EGW but I'm not so thrilled about delving into Daniel.
Does anyone know where I can obtain some unbiased information about the different interpretations of the 2300 "day" prophesy? I was looking at wiki, but figured that wouldn't be the best source for this type of thing. Am I correct that most conservative Bible scholars take the Antiochus interpretation? Am I correct in saying that SDAs are basically the only ones who turn 2300 mornings & evenings into 2300 years? Daniel 8:14 just doesn't give us much to work with, so perhaps I shouldn't be too worried about it.
Animal, you're right about having mixed emotions when reading EGW! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 516
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 5:14 pm: | |
Ask your friends why they are afraid to consult their prophet!!
As far as daniel 8:14......
Ask them how you derive a date of 1844 from the text.
Ask them where the text talks about a time of judgment beginning at 1844.
Ask them where in Daniel it CLEARLY states that the IJ is to vindicate God before the unfallen universe.
Ask them where in Dan 8:14 that it CLEARLY states that the mentioned sanctuary is in heaven. The context of the chapter refers to an earthly sanctuary, doesnt it?
Ask them how the cleansing mentioned in 8:14 has to do anything with the sins of the professed believers of God. The context of the text has to do with the defilement accomplished by the Antichrist, not God's people.
I could go on and on and on.....but you get the idea.
May I suggest a different tactic?.....
Dont try to disprove the IJ teaching....Instead, guide them to PROVE the IJ from Daniel. They will fail miserably..trust me on that one. If it aint in the passages they bring up..they will only show how wrong they are. Allow them to do the "dirty" work for ya...LOL LOL.
May God richly bless your encounter. He will be with you.
...Animal |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 517
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 5:17 pm: | |
You can also Google "Investigative Judgement"
That will get you PLENTY of sources to further your research
...Animal...have you hugged an animal today??? |
Martin
Registered user
Username: Martin
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 5:26 pm: | |
quote:"As the books of record are opened in the Judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. BEGINNING WITH THOSE WHO FIRST LIVED UPON THE EARTH, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected." The Great Controversy [1888 edition], p. 483
So, I understand, believing in Jesus only gives you a "ticket" to participate in the Investigative Judgment... Then they will decide if you're worthy or not to be saved.
How would they decide? Once again, because you trusted in Jesus? Because you kept all the Commandments?
Ladies and gentleman, play our raffle! If you've done the good stuff, whatever that means, more chances to be saved... If not, you maybe receive the same "prize" than the unbelievers? Or something in the middle? Purgatory, anyone?
Mmm... Then, I understand, in the end it all depends on my works because believing in Jesus isn't enough, no? Because if it happens that it depends on me trusting Jesus, what's the point of the Investigative Judgment then?
I know, I heard some saying that it is all about God showing the universe that He's just... But, now I wonder, wouldn't that have already been demonstrated with Jesus' sacrifice? Since the requirements of the Law were fulfiled by Jesus Christ, wouldn't that demonstrate it? And, as Paul says in Romans 3:31, with our faith we are not nullifying the law, but rather confirming it... In that its just demands are met by the suffering of the Son of God himself.
PS: Please, correct me if I've said anything wrong! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 520
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 6:11 pm: | |
Hey Martin....
I like your analogy of the raffle ticket. Adventism does in fact teach that when you come to Christ for salvation, He hands you a ticket to ride the Investigative Judgement Rollercoaster Ride. Isnt it sad that they teach that when you surrender your life to Christ, you still dont know if you are saved until your life goes under a microscope in the IJ ?? No wonder you see all the frowns on their faces as they journey thru life...sigh
...Animal..Rejoice !!! You are Redeemed !!! |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 6:48 pm: | |
Ask why God would give a prophecy that the fulfillment of it can't be seen on earth - but instead can only be believed that it must have happened since it's in heaven and can't be verified. As far as I know, every other prophecy has its fulfillment on earth, and that's kind of the point - when it comes to pass, it's physically possible to see that it did and it's verifiable history.
I just re-read Daniel 8 in both the KJV and the NASB. Now that I've been out of the SDA church for several years, I can't for the life of me figure out how I ever thought that could have taught the IJ. It's so clearly talking about the daily sacrifice being removed/trampled/defiled for 2300 days (evenings and mornings), and then the daily sacrifice being restored. Even the KJV that says "days", later in verse 26 calls this "the vision of the evening and the morning".
The empires according to the statue from the dream and the beasts are (dates are from an SDA website, I assume they match history):
Babylon (604-539 BC)
Medo-Persia (539-331 BC)
Greece (331-168 BC)--given to 4 generals, little horn out of 1 general
Rome (168 BC - 476 AD)
Mixture--feet of iron and clay (476 BC to End)
The little horn in chapter 8 is also interpreted in chapter 8, as coming out of the Kingdom of Greece and the four generals that followed. Clearly everything here happens after Greece's beginning and before the Roman empire. Yet SDAs have this vision starting in 457 BC, right in the middle of the Medo-Persia empire which is before Greece, and not culminating until 1844, very far into the feet of iron and clay.
All anyone has to do is read about Antiochus Ephiphanes IV and see how easily it fits the prophecy. Some people think the dates don't work out quite exactly right for 2300 evenings and mornings, but you have to go by the Jewish calendar and then it does. Here's the calculation I found on that awhile back:
http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8185.html#POST107814
(Message edited by Raven on June 15, 2009) |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 230
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 5:40 am: | |
Thank you for the resources, Animal, Raven & Martin. I have a feeling I'll be less traumatized by Daniel and Rev. now
Apologies for derailing this thread from its original content. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7015
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 7:19 am: | |
Seekinglight, read the books of Maccabees 1 and 2. I forget which one has the history of Antiochus Epiphanies in it. The Jews consider him the fulfillment of desecrating the temple. I
Diana L |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2814
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 11:09 am: | |
quote:The vision in Daniel 9 uses the "day for year" principle, correct? This would be the prophesy predicting Jesus.
Actually, it speaks of "seventy sevens" (it doesn't use "days" either).
Jeremy |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 522
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:05 pm: | |
But we must never forget that Adventist have an infallible interpreter of scripture...Ellen White. So her viewpoint is chissled in stone, right??? We wouldnt want to go against her authority...would we??? Wouldnt want to recieve the Mark of the Beast, would we?? We cant fully trust the Bible can we?
..Animal..have you hugged your prophet today?? |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7017
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:56 pm: | |
Just remember that even though God gave Moses the stone table with the 10 C, Moses threw it down and broke it. God had to do it again. So just because it is chiseled in stone does not mean it is eternally durable.
Just my thoughts.
Diana L |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 12:15 am: | |
Seekinglight, I agree with Animal. Sit back & let them prove it. Also, since there are two parties studying, I would think it would be fair to have a condition of studying Hebrews along with Daniel. Even the SDA Bible commentary admits that "within the veil" means inside the MHP! I will pray for you.... even when I was a staunch SDA the IJ proofs didn't make any sense. Share with us what night the studies are happening & we can bombard you with prayer! I seem to recall that the evenings/mornings were sacrifices, so the time period would only be half of 2300 (don't quote me!) Seems like 457 BC is also the wrong date. After reading Hebrews I realized the whole IJ was nonsense, so I'm not as familiar with the Daniel "proofs" anymore-- How interesting that they don't wish to use EG when you bring up "uncomfortable" quotes. It's impossible to prove the IJ without her authority. |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 12:23 am: | |
PS: Re the COL reference & their comments that this individual had responded to Christ's call: Haven't they ever heard of WEDDING CRASHERS??????? |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 548
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 6:32 pm: | |
SeekingLight~
Chris Lee wrote a great note on Hannukah on FB. I have also posted it on my notes as well. You can search me on FB and read it there. As Diana said earlier, Jews celebrate every year that Antiochus Epiphanes was the one who desecrated the temple. Even Jesus was there when they celebrated this event. John recorded in John 10:22 that "in the winter" (God's appointed feasts were either in the spring or fall) that Jesus was at the Feast of Dedication (some versions say "Feast of Lights"). This is Hannukah.
If Jesus attended this festival that celebrates that Antiochus Ephiphanes fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel 8, why didn't He correct their interpretation? Why would He allow the Jews to believe that Antiochus fulfilled this prophecy if the prophecy was "really" about salvation and Investigative Judgment?
BTW, a friend of mine on FB said that if I believed in "personal choice", then I also believe in the IJ. Has anyone heard of that? ...sigh.
~vivian |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 637
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 8:34 am: | |
In the beginning of this post was some dialogue about the fact that many leaders in the SDA Church know the problems of the doctrines, but turn away from following truth. The 1919 conference was mentioned as an example of lies being propagated so the Adventist Church might not fall apart. Also, many leaders understand there are problems, but they stay in the church for financial reasons (i.e. their job), relationships, etc. or fear of being excommunicated (of sorts) from the "church".
This morning I read something very interesting in scripture ... It clarified that in Jesus day this same thing was happening.
John 12: 37-43; ESV: Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
"Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.
They knew, they even believed, but they CHOOSE not to follow their convictions.
It was amazing to me to see this scripture text this morning.
Keri |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 241
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 11:25 am: | |
Thank you, Keri. This post really ties nicely into River's "Deliverance" thread. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10020
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 2:52 pm: | |
Very powerful passage, Keri.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5029
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 3:09 pm: | |
keri,
I think your message was for you, to answer you ahead of time for what you will be facing.
I may be wrong, I was wrong a few years ago, can't remember what it was though
And yes, it was very powerful, kinda jerks us too attention doesn't it?
River |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 639
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 3:16 pm: | |
River,
Hit the nail on the head! It was for me ... I was in tears for awhile after reading the passage this morning.
God is so gracious to speak through His Word to us today - so many years after the Words were penned. I think that is why they call the scriptures His Living Word.
Keri |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 5030
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 5:07 pm: | |
yes he is a gracious God, even after all these years, I still get absolutely thrilled when I see the Lord speaking directly to his children through his word, steeling and strengthening you for the days ahead.
He loves you so much Keri and he has his hand on you. He cares minutely about every single thing that is happening in your life.
Thank you so much for sharing that with us, this forum family today, I needed the encouragement.
River |
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