| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 830 Registered: 5-2007 |
One of the major effects of having left the SDA system a few years ago is that I have consequently been unable to find my bearings as to the main points of doctrine. Secondly, finding a church to call home has been dissapointing as well. When I review their beliefs or visit, I simply do not achieve a connection or a sense of abinding conviction to even be there. Frankly, more often than not , it seems nothing more than going through the motions. This has led to drifting away and not going at all. The ministry I do get is from TV and Radio. I have tried , been trying, still trying to somehow organize my thoughts on doctrines. I have a collections of point counter points and tid bits of trivia, comments and a host of conflicting interpretations on almost every point of doctrine. This places the weight of validating anything and everything on me. Makes you think, no wonder the Catholic Church is so dogmatic. It is centuries of confusion and custom built faith systems and they got past that. To some extent, in effect, so did the SDA system. I think that is perhaps why I am feeling so out of position, having almost no sense of confidence in the interpretations of the Bible. Without a leadership system in place anymore, it is up to me personally to discover what is most likely truth. Problem with that is , as evidence of being a Catholic as a child and then a SDA for over 30 years, apparently my truth detector is not reliable. Obviously, discovering error or reasonable doubt, means having the capacity to make changes. Though it troubles me that so many mistakes were made through the years. Now here is the thing. When you listen to lines of reasoning, everyone seems to have their arguments well founded upon logic strings and unless you are well versed in the knowledge of scriptures, you really have no way to know when you are being mislead. Now people say , faith is simple and religon is simple and life is simple , la la la. But I believe it is anything but simple. Arriving at a responsible position of doctrines is no easy task. For myself, the pivot points to so many things evolve around several anchor points. Most of us start with the Gospel, with Faith in Christ, linking us to the New Covennant relationship. But there are many spokes to this wheel. Legalism Law Moral Law Of Liberty Giving, Offerings, Tithes,Stewardship etc and let's not forget the derailing subjects of Eternal Hell Sowing and Reaping Judgement Book of Life Rapture Tribulations , there are various versions. Prophecy, Dreams, Visions Daniel and Revelation on and on. So, other than casual fellowship. Having a connection and anchoring that I am used to. This is gone. At least for now. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9956 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I understand what you are saying. I'm thinking it might be helpful for you to focus for a while—maybe a few months—to systematically reading Scripture without reading other religious materials. Try reading through the book of John, only one chapter at a time, making notes as you read. Then read through Romans. Take a chapter at a time, making notes on (or even copying) one verse at a time. I have found that slow, repetitive digesting of the epistles has really opened my eyes and made reality much more clear and definable. There really is no substitute for simply immersing yourself in Scripture as far as knowing what is true goes. Doctrines will NOT make sense until you know Scripture. The reality of God, of the use of the law, of morality, of salvation, of Christian living, etc. become clear only as we submit to the Bible. Ask God to show you His will and teach you reality. He's faithful, and He will teach you. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4966 Registered: 9-2006  |
The fellowship you must have is with Jesus alone, trusting in him alone. Faith is simple Jim,simply put,simply in him. I can't depend on you for the answers I need, you cannot depend on me for the answers you need. You connection was to the people, they told you what to think, how to eat and how and when to worship. Only when you make him your connection and your anchor will you be able to fellowship with people and if the people you fellowship fall away, the anchor will hold. When all is said and done, when the arguments over doctrine have grown boring and cold, when life has let you down, when you are confused, I, or any one of us on here can only point you to Jesus, any other thing and they are liars. When people start placing more emphasis on doctrine, on systems, on stick churches, on arguments of logic, on men, on education I stop and look to Jesus. The minute people quit pointing to Jesus, is the minute I start looking to him. River | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Jim! I hear your pain! I felt that pain when I first left. I determined not to even consider another belief system until I was satisfied with what to believe. I also have tons of notes on both sides of most issues. Coleen's advice is critical. You want to take time without competing voices. ALL you need is in the Scripture.  I started with Romans and went to John. A couple of other things... At some point it dawned on me that some things were essential...Everything else was disputable. A very good friend told me to remember this phrase: "It can't be!"When I would run up against something that I couldn't quite get my head around that was in conflict with one of those essentials, I would say: "It can't be!"Obviously it wasn't essential. I was free to set it aside for investigation at a later date. My touchstone became John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.”and Romans 4:4-5 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.If these sayings were true, this meant I was safe in the hand of Jesus. No one, not even me(!), could snatch me. -AND- There could be no requirement other than belief. Anything further would be "wages". Go Forth, Jim, Armed With "It Can't Be!". Determine The Essentials. They are very few and...they Are ALL That Really Matter. Figuring Out The Other Stuff Is Fun -- You'll Have Plenty Of Time For That Later. God Bless You! Pegg (Message edited by pegg on June 09, 2009) (Message edited by pegg on June 09, 2009) | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2007 |
Finding a church that has your same ideas regarding doctrine is very important but even more important is finding a true man of God that you can place your spiritual manhood under. Just as a husband/father needs to have his family under his umbrella of spiritual protection...so does the man need to be under that same type of umbrella regarding spiritual matters. More often than not, that person is the pastor of a the church that you attend. I believe that it is more important to be part of a living, Spirit filled, Bible preaching church than a dead one that holds to your same beliefs. I lift you up this morning and send mucho encouragement your way. Surfy | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, I know that I have encouraged you to find a church but if you are sub-conciously comparing their doctrines to sda then I would advise you to not find one. Go to your local christian book store and ask them if there is a group around that teaches strictly from the bible, it is a 5yr. course and very intense. I agree with Colleen and Peg about studying John and Romans. I am re-studying John and along with the bible I am using an abridged commentary which has helped alot. When I first left the sda I jump from one item to the next you listed above and would get more confused and that is finally when I said to heck with them and changed my thinking to truely learning who Jesus is, as the others were just distractions at the time and let the Holy Spirit guide me as to what I need to know. Beings you went from catholic to sda you never learned anything about true christianity. I would suggest getting a good theology book as it will help. I have one and it has at times helped me. I am praying for you. Gail | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 831 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, I will be doing as you suggest very soon. Thanks River, I understand your meaning. Pegg, You quoted :Romans 4:4-5 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. J: Do you think that includes not passing a knowledge test, or an understanding test, or figuring it out? If so , then why do so many religon systems ram guilt trips and tasks upon people? Having lost the trust in believing interpretations, I am not sure what is left to hold onto. Surfy, Going in , it is my attitude that I am not assuming that I am meeting the standards of faith or truth , but rather it is a place to grow and find Spiritual help. It is a matter of being in agreement as to what is key and vital, what is truth and what is the real tangible will of God in the practical sense as well as the ideal. Can they merge, is the platform safe, does it promote growth , does it make sense. All this and more. Gail, True Christianity? If I have learned nothing about Christ by now, then evidently, He is unknowable, unverifiable and scrpture is in a foriegn code no one can interpret with reliable conclusions. I tend to process things to the basics and foundationaly , through the absorbtion of scripture, I find that I percieve Christ in ways that are not the same as others, at least in some facets. It is often inferred that SDA/Catholics do not worship the True Christ or preach the Gospel accurately. I feel this is a broad stroke of a brush and ignores the life experineces of His sheep , not of this fold. I admitt that there is apparent errors , however, if error is 100% realtionally to Christ, then it is all in vain and profoundly discouraging to even try. ( I do not believe this because it bases salvation upon intelligence and interpretation accuracy) There is one test I know of, That we believ upon Christ. Foundation begins there. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1457 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, I'd like to encourage you find a Bible Study Fellowship in your area. It's a very basic inductive Bible study program, you'll be going through the Bible verse by verse. It's interdenominational (meaning no one is pushing anything other than the Bible) and it's free. You may meet some nice people and be led to a church family. This keeps coming up, and I know you've got a lot of Ellen Baggage in which you're dealing. I can't even begin to imagine how messed up that makes you feel. However you really can trust that the Bible means what it says. If you familiarize with what it says as a whole, then you will gain the confidence to know what kind of church to look for and what to avoid. Leigh Anne | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes I do, Jim. That Scripture says that salvation derives from belief in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ ALONE. Salvation is not dependent on right-theology. We are told that not one of us understands the height of the depth of the mercy of God. If I had to "get it right" it would be a "work" just as surely as it is if I have to "keep the Sabbath." If we had to "get it right" no one could be saved. Paul says that The Gift is FREE to those who believe. You believe the same thing, Jim. Look what you said to Gail:
Because of sin? Because humans love to boast of their own ability? We love to be in control. What we hate most is admitting dependence on Another. We want most of all to retain our self-sufficiency...And so (of course!) systems of "works-salvation" flourish. I know the feeling. You don't have to believe interpretations. Go to Scripture. Hold on to Holy Spirit God. He will commune with your soul. I didn't even start church-hunting until He had explained the Essentials to my satisfaction. I think each of us experiences communication with God differently, but I'll try to explain what it feels like to me...It feels like Someone has put an insatiable demand in my soul that I HAVE to understand what He wants me to know about a certain concept/idea/issue. I have no peace at all. I am consumed by wanting the "answer". I hunt for it in every Scripture I read. I talk with my Christian friends about it. I may read in theology books, but I don't do that a lot, especially at first until He has given me some indication of what to believe. I pray and pray and tell Him what I'm thinking. I run my "scenarios" by Him over and over again. We talk and talk. This may go on for weeks or months. Then suddenly He'll give me the answer (or an important piece of the answer). I may stumble on it in Scripture. It may come in a conversation on an entirely different subject. I may have no idea where it came from, but when He gives me the answer I ALWAYS KNOW IT! This is the best feeling in the world! I want it every day! See, Jim, My Point Is Be Patient. Just Talk To Him And Listen. He Will Direct You. It's The Waiting That's Hard! I Pray That He Will Richly Bless Your Search. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on June 10, 2009) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 832 Registered: 5-2007 |
Pegg, I like the way you think Leigh Anne, A Bible study at any church typically supports a blazed trail and predigested agenda. In a "normal" setting this works when one accepts teh notion they know what they are talking about. That they have authority and validity. This is part of the problem for me. I don't trust any religous system because I cannot tell (as yet) who is in error and who isn't. I have a great deal of knowledge that I am having to learn all over again (with out prefilters this time) and you know , my brain leaks. I have forgotten more Biblical studies than most people will ever read. I have been studying and learning a whole range of things and there are a few that still bear dissonace as far as I am concerned. For this reason, I am not willing to attach to nor endorse any church, not until I find answers to some things. I am not closed to a Bible study and eventually I may get involved somewhere in one. Some things I will discuss on the other channel. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1458 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, did you just blow me off? What I'm trying to tell you is that BSF is pure Bible study. Here's the site - you can judge for yourself. http://www.bsfinternational.org/ All different kinds of mainstream churches use this program. It's not exclusive to any one mainstream church. (You won't find it being used in cults.) I remember my husband telling me he didn't want to go to a bible study at my church because he was afraid that it would be a Lutheran point of view. What he didn't understand (and what I don't believe you understand) is that most mainstream denominations do not think like the SDA church. The SDA church wants you to believe that it's the remnant, where mainstreamers teach that the true church is the people who believe in Jesus, period. I've taken Bible study at non-denominational, Baptist, Lutheran, a home study and a Chinese Presbyterian church. So far they've all stuck to Bible only, and not one tried to sell me into their denomination. It's certainly NOT true that "a bible study at *any* church typically supports a blazed trail and predigested agenda." Talk about a broad stroke of a brush! I'm sorry, you are simply wrong, and THAT's a lame excuse. Wow. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 602 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jim and Leigh Anne, I have attended BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) for 6 years now. This last year was when my eyes were opened to the gospel - so I was paying particular attention to what I was studying. Jim, this Bible Study doesn't let you use any other resources other than the Bible. They ask that you get a Bible that ONLY has cross references - nothing else. There are questions at times that they call "challenge" questions where you can try to find the answers using a Bible Atlas or Concordance. But it is strictly from the text. You are a part of a small group and then go to a large group for a lecture on the passages you just studied in the small group. All denominations are represented. It is very, very, very structured. You are not to talk about your particular denomination at all. Leigh Anne - have you been in BSF and will you be next year? Next year they are studying the book of John. Jim, blessings and prayers for you as you seek Him with all your heart. Keri | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1459 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Keri ~ My sister and I are planning to sign up for the next session, which is in the fall. My pastor's wife attended for many years and highly recommends it. We also have several other friends who went through the program across the country and they were blessed by it as well. Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1460 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. I reread what I wrote and I realize it didn't come of like I meant. In reading your post, (and previous posts) I can see a real trust issue with many things. Don't blame you at all. However with much love and all due respect, I encourage you to start trusting somewhere. Is it going to be a little scary at first? Yes. At the same time, it's the only way you'll learn. Just keep trying! LA | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hey Jim, I want to encourage you to be a hearer of the word, and listen to the blble on tape or CD. I really got a lot out of listening to the KJV NT read by Alexander Scourby . Not the dramatized version, but just the one that he reads. I was reading in the liner notes for his rendition that he was a Shakesperian actor, so his mastery of old English is really pretty easy listening. You can hear whole books at a time, and listen to a book over, and over again, and the Holy Spirit does teach you in this effortless structure of just listening. ALso everything is in context, with itself, as you are listening to a letter, an appeal to have you know that you have eternal life. You almost learn the nuances of Old English pretty rapidly, and that barrier is at least removed. Also he just spits out the hard to pronounce names with ease, and assuming he guesses at some of the pronounciations of names ,I would say that everything else is a genuine effort at accuracy. I found that this listening, gave me a chance to listen to the Holy Spirit , because I wasn't so envolved with reading an dialect that wasn't my own. Also the printing press was not invented until hundreds of years after the NT was written, which means the early church heard the word of God more so than read it. I think it is nice sometimes to step back in time, and give ourselves the same benefit that the early church had. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9964 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Chris's suggestion to listen to the Bible on CD is good. I know one person who had an audio Bible, and for some reason it got stuck on 1 Corinthians. (I guess it developed a scratch or something...) Anyway, this guy listened to 1 Corinthians over and over ond his way to and from work for weeks, and one day in the car he asked Jesus to forgive his sins and be his Savior. It seems the continual hearing of God's word did have a role to play in his transformation. One of the things about listening, Jim, is that the words go into your mind without some of the cognitive analysis that reading allows us to do. There is power in God's word, and letting it soak into us is transforming when we are submitting to the Lord Jesus to teach us. Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, You have to remember God will give you the information He wants you to have when you are ready for it. I was not critizing you in your belief in Jesus. I am sorry that I was not more specific. I was not saying sda's and catholics do not know God. What I meant was the God they know is what is taught through these churches and their expounded writers be it egw, catacism, joseph smith. as to what you were taught and how to think. I way back when started taking this course (and had to quit as my work schedule changed) there were a lot of catholics also taking the course who commented that they had never learned how to really read the bible. Grace_Alone, Thank-you for posting this bible study. I am going to look into it as it sounds like the one I had started way back when. Gail | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 833 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne, You remind me of my sister. Wham ! Up side my head when I need it No, I did not blow you off and sorry if it came across that way. Nor was I inferring an attempt to make an excuse. What I meant was that (as you know) there is a mix of things I am working through in addition to the Church/Religon/Faith issue. But all of it is part of the whole picture and they all have cross effects. I am realizing more and more that I do need to get into a study group of some sort, not only to learn, but also to get exposure to other thoughtful people. I am trying to avoid lamenting. And on this channel I am trying to keep it general and open topic. THere are a few things I wanted to talk about , but not all at once and not to lament. We have been short handed at work and I have been covering two weeks of a coworkers abscence. I am hoping to have more time to work on some things soon. I have a NIV, and a NIV Study Bible (Colleen suggested) I also found a half dozen other versions I had stored in the attic. Plus I have a full NIV Exhaustive Concordance. I have been finishing up a book on Forgiveness, (a major area of working through) trying to comes to terms with one of my realities. Please know, I would never intentionally be rude to you. Gail, I realize I expressed my thoughts defensively. It was and is mostly borne from a sense of frustration and feeling like peoples entire faith walk lives are meaningless. (I understand, you did not mean it that way.) I have known Adventists I admired. Not because they kept a check list, but that they had a faith relationship with Christ that trancended the tenor of church politics and pop SDA mantras. They were living intuitively, yet they were convinced that certain points of SDA doctrine were binding. To these people, I tried to learn how they were accessing that sense of peace and meaningful fulfillment in Christ. There are bench warmers and legalist everywhere, mind numb robots..... But there are people that seem to get it. Now grant you , there are extremes in SDA practices and certainly a great deal of disputable doctrines. I just do not see the dismissal or invalidation of SDA or Catholics to the degree that some feel free to pronounce. In fact , sometimes it rises to a level of frightening. Besides , my Mom taught me to defend the underdog. Conversely, I try to understand the zeal some may have expressing the wasted time they feel and the urge to shout it out. I get that too. In either case, I do not need this facet to get to truth, it too is another distraction. You are correct, there is thinking patterns taught in every system, filters, formats, preconditions, constructs that paint you into a corner. It happens and usually unknown as it happens. That is where most of my distrust comes from. I am trying to reconstruct a foundation for learning, so I can get momentum. I do not think I have wasted my time these past couple years on the forum. It has been a part of opening my horizons. The things in my personal life all mixed together in this all represents so much change, it is hard to express what it is like. Unreality. Gail, please accept my apology. I do not mean to offend. Jim | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 285 Registered: 10-2008  |
Jim I say ditto to Colleen & Chris with the audio Bible suggestion. The fellows at my church think I'm a broken record when I tell them "they just have to get a bible on tape/CD" I can't begin to explain the benefits of being able to hear the word while driving, washing dishes, walking. Or even better yet reading while the CD is playing. Audio Bibles have had a huge impact on my life and I always have them around. (I literally get anxious if for some reason I leave the cds at home and I don't have them in my car) Enoch | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 472 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, No appology needed. Sometimes I say things and forget to follow through with the meaning. All I can do is try and help you with ideas and then it is up to you to decide if they will work for you and if not then to discard them. I understand how frustrated you are. Even though I have been out of couple of years I also have questions and ask my evangical friends and they can not understand me. I even had one tell me I was on the verge of heresy thinking. That really set me back on my heals. That hurt at first but then I got to thinking they have not lived under cultic teachings and they wouldn't understand as it is like talking to them in a foreign language they do not know. There is no two of us alike and we all process information differently. I also know people in other religious groups be they in cults or off shoot religions that I have respect for, so it is not the people I am against but the religion they are taught that does not line up with what the bible teaches. I like you was also taught to fight for the under-dog but to make sure the under-dog is right, not just because he is the under-dog. I am asking God to be with you as you journey through the learning process. Gail |
