| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 392 Registered: 8-2008 |
I just had an epiphany: EGW and Adventism claim that, by putting the best food in my body (best as defined by EGW, not by scientific fact), that can decrease sin's power over me so that I can do good. But here's the problem: If sin is in a person's core nature, in fact is that person's identity, then if that person gives better food to feed his mind and body, all he is doing is giving sin more fuel with which to work. In other words, if I was an American GI being chase by a German tank in WWII, the last thing I'd want to do is fill up its fuel tanks with premium diesel. And this is the problem: Until something is done about sin in a person's core essence, in his spirit, then there isn't anything you do that can really help his problem with sinning. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 541 Registered: 7-2008  |
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:1,2 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Phil 4:8,9 We can renew the mind thru the reading of scripture and by prayer and meditating on wholesome things. ...Animal | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10062 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Brent--have you ever noticed that Adventism has trouble with developmentally disabled people and the very ill? Sickness is somehow embarrassing and guilt-producing; they fear they did something wrong if they get a serious disease. And if they get chronic health problems, they look for supplements and stricter diets to "fix" themselves. It doesn't occur to most of them to look at their spiritual condition: do they have unrepented sin? Are they harboring deep ager or pain from undealt-with abuse? It's actually a fairly widely-recognized phenomenon that chronic back pain with no clear diagnosis often accompanies unresolved anger...and no, I'm not saying that if you have a bad back,m you're angry. I'm just sayin' that some kinds of back pain that have no obvious cause often coincide with emotional issues. No, Adventism has a lot of trouble with human conditions that they can't control. But if physical health or mental wholeness were requirements for knowing God, then a huge portion of the population would have no hope. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yep. Thing is, until someone is born again, they can try to eat all the right foods and do all the right EGW asceticisms, but all they'll be doing is expressing their sinful nature in different ways. Adventists don't realize that it's just re-arranging heaps in a landfill. And the more you try to cover up your sinful nature, the more you push it down inside, so instead of coming out in obvious sins like fornication or violence, it comes out in hidden ways like self-righteousness, pride, anger, etc. Bottom line is, my old man had to lay down and die before I ever started becoming a better person. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2090 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen! Salvation is not taking a bad thing and making it good, it's taking a dead person and giving them life. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 854 Registered: 5-2007 |
Are you suggesting that self discipline and self control are not important? If we are not clear minded, how can we expect to use sound judgement? I get what you mean about it not being a cure for the cause. But it can and does add fuel to sin even more when under the influence of unhealthy substances in one degree or another. I am not saying I agree with the degree and broad restrictions of the EGW teachings. It is not axiomatic that just because EGW spoke it, that it should be rejected in total. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1479 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, when a person is born again the Holy Spirit indwells in them and they are led into self discipline and self control. You just do. I've met hardened criminal drug addict bikers who were born again and completely changed their lives. (Bikers for Jesus). It's completely the Holy Spirit, not our ability for self control. And yes, anything that EGW wrote should be completely thrown out. I don't care how good it sounds. She was a false prophet. In the Bible she would have been condemned to death for making false prophesies. Let someone else write sound words on nutrition.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 588 Registered: 2-2008  |
I agree Leigh Anne... just had a loooong conversation with the man who fixed our mower. Last year he came over to complain about the fireworks we were launching. His head was down, he mumbled, couldn't look at me... he just seemed so angry. Hadn't seen him until last Friday. I'm telling you he was a new creation!!! had nothing to do with food, drink, or self control, but everything to do with Jesus. He talked to me eye to eye with joy, peace... he was completely different. The change? Being born of the Spirit. As Sondra says, this just boggles the legalist's mind... they want to say that laws and rules change people... but when you see the change in Lloyd... this is of God. He has been changed from the inside and it is just pouring out of him. ~vivian | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1480 Registered: 6-2006 |
Wow Viv, that's a wonderful story! It's so amazing what the Holy Spirit will do. You just can't describe it in words. Btw, I just realized that I wrote the word "completely" 3 times in my last post. Talk about a complete lack of self control! Bskillit, I agree with your OP. The whole Health Message is a false gospel in itself. It gets to be the main focus with so many people I know. Yet another example of Ellen crossing Jesus' words. I know this has been hashed and rehashed, but here is what our Savior said about it ~ Mark 7:18-20 (New International Version) 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5103 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: It is not axiomatic that just because EGW spoke it, that it should be rejected in total. (unquote) Ellen Whites teaching should be rejected in total; if not then you would be accepting the spirit behind her in total. Once you go down the road of accepting anything that Satan says as part right, it ends up in enmity with God somewhere down the line. The spiritual forces that induced Ellen’s rebellion are the same forces that would destroy you through deceit or any other method. You keep trying to use the cold logic of man, the same logic that Darwin-ians use to deduct that we sprang from apes and ultimately from a bottom dwelling ocean fish. The wisdom of man tries to exert itself over the wisdom of God, which is the same spirit that rebelled against God in the first place, God who is Spirit and truth. It is when we come before God and admit that our wisdom is nothing and our education is nothing, our money and position is nothing and submit ourselves to him that we are helpless and totally dependent upon him for all that we receive, that humbles us before and under the mighty, yet merciful hand of God, the Lord Jesus Christ our savior. Then we start to see the wisdom of his word and his truth. It is only through the Spirit of God that we can begin to discern the spiritual aspects of the world and know true rest, having laid our all, what we are or all we will ever be at the feet of Jesus, every jot and tittle, and admit that ‘woe is me, I am undone’ then we can begin to know the wisdom of God. You say, well, I have self control, but when age or disease or misfortune bring the body down to the grave all self control is gone. When you face your ultimate demise, then where will your self control be? Ask a man gasping for air on a hospital bed where his self control is. If he hasn’t submitted to God his self control will take him down to hell for the sake of exerting his wisdom over Gods wisdom. Where will your reason be when you exert all the reasoning you ever had just to gain one breathe of air? Sin on your life is a spiritual condition and the acts are a reflection of the fruit of that spiritual condition, it may not show itself in acts of what we commonly call sin such as sex, drugs and drunken-ness, it may show itself in pious pride, self righteousness, religious pride, or legalism, but it cannot hide itself for very long and professing itself wise it becomes a fool. Ellen White was only a reflection of the sin of rebellion and self will and exertion over God’s wisdom and the wisdom of his word. When the folks at the Methodist church tried to reason with her with the word, she and her cohorts selected their wisdom over Gods wisdom and the fruit of that began to take hold, that old spirit of rebellion took control and had its way and sway and that is the same spirit that tries to have its way and sway today. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 855 Registered: 5-2007 |
I need to back up here and state that I understand the alarm effect when ever EGW is even mentioned. AGAIN, I am not defending EGW. I agree, truth and error mingled together corrupts the whole message. So , Please, let's set EGW aside. I am talking about throwing out common sense with the new found freedom we are entering into. Scripture says that the law was a schoolmaster. That the law is for the lawless. The pivot point here is that by The Spirit, we are no longer under the law , and that we do not need a law to guide our actions. In the ideal full realizational sense of that approach, I have no argument. But as I read in the NT , common sense and practical wisdom is not dispensed with. It appears to me they have merged. Romans: 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Spiritual and practical. James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Spiritual , Practical. 1 Peter 4: 7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. Spiritual awareness, Practical effect. 1 Peter 5: 8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Practical. The whole picture here is what matters to me. I wish it was just that easy to say, to claim that a Spiritual approach was all sufficient to live a productive Christian life. It is not the whole picture. I do not disagree about the Spiritual effect that being in Christ and living by His Spirit does indeed change the heart (motives-attitude-core). In the practical view of life, the vessel we live in. It is just not that simple. There is more to it and sweeping it aside is to ignore the majority of the human condition and to leave a whole lot of souls behind. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1484 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, when you live by the Spirit (and by that I mean the actual Holy Spirit lives within you) you're not "sweeping away" practicality or your will or self control. You're just not giving it a lot of credit. Do you see what I mean? When living in the Spirit, you set yourself aside. You will still be practical, know right from wrong and let sin go, only now you have the righteousness of Christ instead of yourself. Of those of us that you've come to know over the last year or so, can you say that we believe in "cheap grace" or that we go around sinning deliberately and freely under the guise of "we can because we're saved"? Do you believe we have no self control? SDA's tend to give laws and commandments and works all the credit. They look at Evangelicals and point the finger and claim "lawless!!" because we're not constantly bragging about keeping certain laws (or keeping the laws THEY think we should keep). What I believe they're doing though, is actually confusing law keeping and living by the Spirit. They say that the Holy Spirit helps them keep the 10 Commandments. (Again, the 10 Commandments are at the center of their faith). Whenever I go to my in-law's SDA church there's always some kind of instruction (many of it not even Biblical) on how they expect their members to live. (I mean really, don't dance or go to movies?) There's never any discussion about the Spirit, or changed lives or Christ's covering us with his blood. Paul was encouraging believers. He was starting new churches and building a foundation. Can you imagine a Bible that didn't have a framework for practical living? The emphasis isn't on practical living though. It's on Christ's righteousness. I know there are times when I have a question like, what does the Bible say about cussing? I'm glad there's actually a verse regarding cussing. Again, if the Holy Spirit dwells in you, you will be able to discern right from wrong. You will be a new creature. You will still struggle with your flesh (after all, we DO have sinful natures) but it's the Holy Spirit will be guiding you right back to where you belong. I guess it's a matter of, do you want to control yourself (and self-control) or do you want the Holy Spirit to have that job? Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 856 Registered: 5-2007 |
Leigh Anne, On whole, we are in agreement. And I appreciate your expanding on this. I see some of the things people say here and I try to understand what they really mean, or where they are coming from. Premise. When they frame it in jest or absurdtys to make a point, it throws me, and my reaction is, they can't really mean that, do they? No, I do not think anyone here is expounding cheap grace. I do not read EGW as a rule these days. But on the other hand , just because she may have touched upon a point, does not automatically mean it is in itself wrong. Instead, I am trying to prove and sort things out as far as basis in understanding and coming from so much misinformation and error, it is no wonder as I continue to make my way through this , gratuitous comments will in fact give me pause. Should we now revel in eating anything in sight just because we can? Obviously not. Do we ignore health facts concerning what we consume. No. Will it save us? No , but as in all aspects of selfdiscipline and choices, it can lead to tremendous loss, ineffective service , growth and witness. I keep going back to to things making sense. That does not mean I know all there is to know, but that at least, what I am hearing is not nonsense. Jim | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1486 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, I'm not going to stop eating bacon. Leigh Anne | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2094 Registered: 8-2004 |
Why should we not revel in the freedom that Christ gives? It is not freedom to sin - after all, the Holy Spirit will never lead us to do something that is sin (God never tempts to sin) - but it IS freedom from the law that was a separating wall between Jew and Gentile. Either Jesus meant it when He declared all foods clean or he was fudging - and God doesn't lie. Either the Bible is accurate when it says that those who walk by the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh but instead will bear the fruit of the Spirit or it is not. God has opened wide the fields of His grace. Granted, the gate is narrow - There is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved - but the fields are wide open and green. There is a freedom in surrender that cannot be found by surrounding ourselves with lists. To be sure, once we've found the freedom of surrender we will learn the limits God has set for us. And we'll find that our very dreams and wishes have been changed. A plant is not free to be a stone, but it is totally free to grow in any direction it naturally goes until the husbandman comes along and prunes it. In fact, if the plant does NOT grow out there is a question as to whether it is even alive. And if it only sticks out a tendril now and then it's likely to get dug up and re-potted to where its roots can absorb more nourishment and be poked and prodded and wiggled to encourage it to grow. (Message edited by helovesme2 on June 26, 2009) | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 237 Registered: 2-2007 |
Thank you Mary! This is the very thing we've tried to explain to hubby's mother. You've described it so well. May I use it when it comes up again? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2095 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yes, Lucybugg, you are welcome to use it anywhere you wish! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 589 Registered: 2-2008 |
great post Mary!! great question... "Why should we not revel in the freedom that Christ gives?" I believe that is what God wants us to experience. He doesn't want us to be in bondage... in slavery. ~vivian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 398 Registered: 8-2008 |
Jim, those texts you cited were written to people Paul considered born-again Christians. Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. Thus it is something Christians can enjoy. I totally agree with you on that. My point is telling someone who isn't born again that they can solve their sin problem by self-control or diet or the like. All that does is push their sin down further and it comes out in different ways. They cannot truly have self-control in the Biblical sense until they are born again adn thus have the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 399 Registered: 8-2008 |
Leigh Anne, Adventists only define sin as breaking the 10 C's. They don't see sin as something deep within them that manifests itself in disobedience. Thus, they think if they can just get a check on certain outward behaviors, that will solve their sin problem. Remember, they do not believe man has a spirit, so they do not believe he is a spiritual being. He is strictly a physical being in their view. Consequently, they don't understand that sin is a spiritual disease. They think it is merely a physical problem born by poor diet or by not trying hard enough. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1497 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Bskillet - I am in total agreement with you. When I wrote that Paul was encouraging believers, I did mean born again believers. I probably took that for granted and Jim may not have understood that. Also, I am well aware of the SDA's issue on the spirit (sadly). It ends up being a very flesh driven theology. It makes sense why my SDA family and people who have control issues have a hard time understanding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They still say that they're keeping the laws, but the HS is "helping" them, as opposed to the Holy Spirit having the glory. Leigh Anne |
