| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 857 Registered: 5-2007 |
My niece came by for a visit while in town from upstate this week. She brought me a gift from my sister. It was my Dad's personal Bible. He died some years ago. My Dad was a devout Catholic. He lived a hard life, many sorrows. But he lived a life of reverence and sincerity before God. This Bible has some writings scattered thoughout and many slips of folded notes inserted between the pages. My sister said she left them intact right where he placed them. I started with just a few pages this morning, looking at some of his notes. They were his thoughts, his prayers and there is more that I have not seen yet. There was a clipping from Norman Vincent Peale about breaking the habit of worry. My Dad was a thinker. I saw this morning in those clippings and notes, that he was bearing many burdens and yet walking in faith. In the front of the Bible there was an inscription saying that his Bible was blessed by the Pope. Certainly that meant a great deal to him. Just looking at that Bible and his notes, tears flowed. My Dad was for real and he never lost his faith in God. I think about my Grandmother. She was Baptists but became Adventist in the secind half of her long life. She too was a genuine Christian. Between my Mom, Baptist/Non Denom, My Aunts SDA, My Dad Catholic, Other Aunts and Uncles Catholic and so on. What I have not seen is condemnation between the family or a position that others of our family would not be saved because they did not all agree on the same interpretations. Everyone of them, every single one, believed on Christ. I have read even here on this forum that it is not religon that will save you. Yet there is so much hostility and puffing up here sometimes, I just don't know where that spirit comes from and it scares me as to where it could go. In my family and extended family, I was never shown an example of contempt and harshness between our collective faiths. This folks, is why I recoil like I do. I continue here because I want to learn and I feel there are importnant things I need to understand. I have listened to many disclaimers and accusations about false gospels, non- Christians and everything in between. Their systems may indeed be flawed, but the fact remains, they are Christians and they belong to God. With all due respect. Jim | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1489 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, With all due respect, this reminds me so much of Oprah Winfrey. She likes to say "Whoever you call God, whether it's Allah, or Bhudda, or Krishna or Jesus, it is fine. Whatever you believe, if you are sincere, then that's enough. It sounds awfully nice, and she's covering all the bases. Not wanting to leave anyone out or hurt people's feelings. It's politically correct, that's for sure... However that's not what the Bible teaches us. The Bible is very clear on what the Gospel is (1 Cor. 15) and there's only ONE gospel. If you believe in it and Christ as your savior then you have eternal life and you are saved. If you don't, no matter how nice you are, or how many nice things you do, or even what church you belong to, you won't have salvation. I'm sorry if that doesn't sound nice to you, or even if it's too harsh for your ears, it's the truth. Paul preached against false gospels many times. It was very important for him. He didn't care about who's feelings he hurt. If someone was preaching a false gospel, he said "let them be condemned". Keep in mind, these weren't just "accusations", it was the truth. Sometimes it sounds like you confuse the church systems with individual people. If I say the SDA church is preaching a false gospel, then automatically you point the finger and say "they are Christians and they belong to God." No one is condemning your family or loved ones. They are on their own and whatever faith they have is between them and God. If they believed in the gospel then they're saved. However it still doesn't change the fact that the SDA church is preaching bondage, legalism and a false gospel on the foundation of a false prophet. Sorry if that sounds mean to you but it's the truth. If you feel convicted every time you read something you don't like then engage in the conversation. Share in what you are learning in the Bible and back up what you have to say with scripture. Put your money where your mouth is. Sorry if I drive you nuts!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 858 Registered: 5-2007 |
Let's say your interpretation is accurate, flawless and spot on. Do you now have the license to enforce your beliefs by intimidation, insult or cohercion? Are you so absolutely sure of your beliefs that you are willing to censure other beliefs. Religon and doctrine are by definition subjective. No matter how sincere I believe anything I have interpreted from scripture it shall always remain subjective in this reality. All of us are continually learning and discovering mistakes as well as new truths. I do not believe in religious agression. In any form. It is counter productive. And yes, Catholics and SDA have also been guilty of it as well. Has anyone learned anything? We need to be oh so careful how we wield that two edged sword. Religon can be conveyed by example and precept or by agression and intimidation. IMO Jim | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1490 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, I'm proclaiming and standing by the Gospel no matter how offensive that seems. I am certain that it's true. Leigh Anne | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 606 Registered: 2-2006  |
AMEN, Leigh Anne | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1711 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, To enter the Kingdom of God you must be born again: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:1-7 KJV) Jesus, when speaking to Nicodemus, was very clear. Unless you are born of the Spirit you can not enter the Kingdom of God. There is no other way to be saved and join the Kingdom of God. Fearless Phil | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 638 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Jim, I'm so glad you have your Father's Bible. I got my dad's Bible, too after he went to be with Jesus. It means so much to me to read the things he wrote and thought were important. I think Jim that you are a deep thinker and that's good, but make sure that the things you think line up with the Word of God. I don't know if you've read the whole thing or are in the habit of reading and studying it daily. I hope so! If you haven't, it's really important. One of the people I was doing "Bible studies" (if you can still call them that) with early in my time in the SDA church admitted he had never read the whole Bible. I was dumbfounded. I don't know how common it is in Adventism for people to have gotten their whole knowledge base from sermons, Amazing Facts, It Is Written and 3ABN, but it was common in my former church. Very few had read the whole Bible - or even the whole New Testament. I guess what I want to say to you Jim is that there is an absolute truth and that truth is different from error. There is much spiritual error out there. Jesus told us to make sure we are walking in the truth. The ONLY way to do that is to read and study the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We were all taught lies during our time in the SDA church. We're here because we see and acknowledge that fact. We are doing the things we know to realign ourselves with the revealed truth in the Bible. Jim, we can't just say some are nice so I believe them or these people think this and they are respectable so I believe them or even forum members think ___ so they're right - or wrong. Our spiritual lives must be built on biblical truth. There is clear knowable truth in the Bible! Yes, people diagree about some side issues. Jesus outlined the essentials of Christianity in the gospels. You're obviously a highly intelligent man. My suggestion to you (take it or leave it) is to read the New Testament over and over again a few chapters at a time until you begin to get settled on the truth about salvation and Jesus and the difference he makes in our lives when we give them completely to Him. Jim, I didn't have to "white - knuckle it" or drain the fun out of my life and become serious and joyless to make my life pleasing to God. I found FREEDOM in Christ! I did NOT find freedom to sin. I found freedom to live an abundant, joy-filled life in Christ - and I wouldn't trade it for anything! I so pray you will find it as well! Joyfulheart | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 859 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1492 Registered: 6-2006 |
Here you go Jim, and anyone else out there who wants to know the Gospel ~ 1 Corinthians 15 The Resurrection of Christ 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. Also, Jim, you have recieved nothing but kindness, compassion, gentleness, patience and prayers from so many of us on this forum. Some have gone as far as coddled you. Every time you come in and share your life with us you get all the support and love and encouragement anyone could ever get. We haven't asked anything in return. When I read these words from you all I see is bitterness and a guilt trip, and I don't know where it's coming from. ??? Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 860 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes Leigh Anne, My friends here on the forum have be very kind to me and that has never been brought into question. Where it's coming from; Ok, I acknowledge that I am dealing with circumstances that are difficult. I am going through a period in my life where just about everything that defines a persons life has been turned upside down, lost or redefined. Bitterness is a natural reaction, but so is confusion. In the process of attempting to regroup, to approach mending the fences I am attempting to understand the rules of the road, the basis of each approach to various agendas, patterns and where any concept leads to. Because, I feel like I am in a mine field. Along with bitterness and confusion, I feel like I am in a maze and that can lead to frustration. 1 Corinthians 15 makes a statement that Catholics and SDA are in agreement with. The divergence is in the periphial or related doctrines of these faith systems in how they approach the standing of laws and disciplines. In both cases, there are things that I do not agree with either. Therefor, it becomes a matter that I have to somehow understand what it is God wants me to do in respect to these matters. Do I overlook the flaws and fellowship with either one? Or do I move on to another church. Ah, but if I find a flaw, do I apply the same rule?! So which flaws are negotiable? This then drives me back to asking the basic question. By what Spirit are any of these groups coming from and where are they going? Where I am coming from; I have in my mind that a Christian, a Church is first of all peaceable. That is where they are going, towards peace. So then this brings me to this question; On what basis and by what methods do we defend the faith and present the gospel and truth? I ask this here and now. Because this is where I am coming from. As most of us know, SDA's believe that religous persecution will be a huge problem in the last days. Throughout history and even today, religous persecution and hatred between one group and another results in tremendous strife, destruction and loss of freedoms. So what is the commission of the Christian and the Gospel? Does it include aggression tactics? In the OT , the Hebrew people were frequently engaged in war. In conquest. In the Crusades it happened again, the Spanish expansions, and now today, this same turmoil is brewing again all around the world. Does the gospel include taking up aggression and force ultimately in the scheme of things. Is it our present day mission to stamp out any belief system taht does not meet our idea of truth? How far does go? I ask because, if I am not understanding the mission basis, I may oneday find myself persecuting a Christian in another fold. This is a gateway issue for me. Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5117 Registered: 9-2006  |
Thank you Leigh Anne, and Amen!! River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10071 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, Adventists are not in agreement with 1 Cor but differing in "peripherals". They are differing in fundamentals. I guess this is the issue I feel I have trouble explaining in a way that it makes sense to many people. The statement Leigh Anne quoted from 1 Cor 15 states the fundamentals of the Christian faith. To Adventists, these things function as "peripherals". That's why we keep making an issue of it. Oh, they'll say they believe these things and base their faith on them. Yet they won't stake their eternal destiny on thee facts. They hedge their bets. They absolutely DO include Sabbath-keeping as part of their salvation. Their denominational foundation includes Arianism and the investigative judgment which makes Jesus the "defiler" of heaven and Satan the ultimate sin bearer for the saved. It doesn't matter, Jim, how much people "protest" that they believe 1 Cor 15. If they don't actually believe that statement is ALL they need, if they don't understand that they have to give up their good works and efforts to please God and cast themselves on Jesus alone, they will not be saved. People can say all kinds of truthful things, but unless they stake their entire life and future on Jesus, those truths are just words. If their foundation makes them understand a lie, they will understand even the "right words" wrongly. So it's not in "peripherals" where "different gospels" diverge; it is in fundamentals. We are asked to have discernment to perceive whether or not a body of teaching is built on the true fundamentals of the Christian faith, or whether the group has hidden fundamentals and holds to the true fundamentals as peripherals to their hidden foundation. That is the issue. And we are NOT expected to give people a pass when their words sound good. We have to know what they teach and warn people if there is error. Jude 3-4 calls all of us as believers to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. The entire book of Galatians exposes a false gospel that claims all the fundamentals of the Christian faith—but the deception was requiring the law in addition to faith in Christ. Paul said anyone who preached a gospel other than the one he preached was to be eternally condemned. That's why we're insistent, Jim. We're not lashing out to criticize; we are here to help people perceive truth and to be saved from deception and despair. God asks us to respond to His truth and to be willing to give up everything—even life as we know it—for Him. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2833 Registered: 10-2004  |
Let's take a look at some of the passage from 1 Corinthians 15 that Leigh Anne posted above:
Adventism denies this.
Adventism certainly denies this (while claiming to agree with the words).
Adventism denies this and teaches that He was "re-created" instead. "He" was not raised, but a new person was created in His place. So no, 1 Corinthians 15 is a not a statement that SDAs agree with. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7137 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jeremy, until I left adventism I had no idea what they and I believed!!! That is a shame. Diana L | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 861 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You Colleen. I stand edified. I will be aware of what you have shared and I am grateful. On the other subject, what are the limits of aggression and protocol in Christian wittnessing, indoctrination etc. This remains unanswered. Jim | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 136 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jim, I would say that you, The Bible, and the Holy Spirit are the limits of aggression and protocol, indoctrination. The spirits have to be tested. Theirs a lot of snake oil sales men in religion.We cannot be a sponge and soak up any idea that comes along. This is one of the challenges of the human condition, as false idols, beliefs love to find residence in our fallen state. this is why being rooted in the Gospel is so important, and why Jesus has to be our foundation, and not just a peripheral. With Jesus as our foundation their is little room for things not in alignment, and strange ideas are easily exposed. Chris | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 862 Registered: 5-2007 |
Chris, You wrote: "We cannot be a sponge and soak up any idea that comes along." J: You hit the nail on the head! This has been a large part of the whole issue for me in this transistion process. Not only do you have to attempt to understand the new information, you have to determine if it is truth and you also have to root out the incorrect information. All the while, your still trying to navigate through the maze. you wrote: "this is why being rooted in the Gospel is so important, and why Jesus has to be our foundation, and not just a peripheral. With Jesus as our foundation their is little room for things not in alignment, and strange ideas are easily exposed." J: Ok , then , can you reccommend a good study guide or other method to assist in locking on with clarity. Obviously, when I read the text, I keep coming away with the same doubts or confusions. Reasonings are logic based. There are a few things about the dismissal of law OC that do not always come across with clarity. Jim | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2008 |
I recommend listening to the NT over, and over, and over again, without any study guide except the Holy Spirit. Then every verse is in context with what came before it, and what comes after it. It sounds like the long way when it would be so much simpler if someone would just explain it, but we all know what happens with that process!! Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10083 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, good advice. I do believe he's right, Jim! God is faithful. You don't have to doubt yourself and your understanding. When you submit to Him, He is faithful to reveal and confirm Himself through His own word. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 865 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am thinking about taking specific passages in the NT and stating how I understand them (in context) and see if some of these confusions might become clear with discussion. Jim | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 138 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jim, I was thinking of the scripture that talks of how the gospel is to the Greek foolishness, and to the Jew a stumbling block. The Greek, I think pictures the intellect ,of which they were renown. The Jew pictures ceremony, tradition, and self justification. What is being indicated is that neither of those faculties is sufficient for revealing truth. So as long as you pursue with those faculties that you have used in the past, or faculties that work in the human sphere, no matter how sincere or thorough you are with them, they are not sufficient to reveal what the Spirit can reveal by resting in the assurance that Jesus did die for us because he is our friend. He accomplished what we can't, that he gave us life eternal. Then through the focus on what he has done for us, instead of what is he going to do for us, leaves us with an expectation of the Lord using us. So the shift goes from how can we use God to how God can use us. Comparatively, I think that reading the Bible is much more of an intellectual process than listening to the Bible, so my recommendation still stands, for myself and anyone else who gets stuck, and needs their Bible experience to be more open to the Spirit, when more scholastic approaches seem to falter. Be a hearer of the word so as to become one whom the living word, Jesus, lives in. Chris (Message edited by Christo on June 29, 2009) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 866 Registered: 5-2007 |
Chris, I believe we cannot understand the Bible in it's nuances, nor can we internalize the Word of God without the Holy Spirit. "All Scripture is profitable for reproof, doctrine ....." The word is given to us for a purpose. I believe we are to recieve it , understand it and become changed by it through the inworking power and guidance of God's Holy Spirit. "Scripture is of no private interpretation" "Seek the Counsel of your elders" "come now let us reason together" "not only hearers , but doers" "seek the old paths" "for in them ye think ye have eternal life" "My Sheep hear my voice" "Thy word is truth" I am using what God has given me. It is never enough to rely on my own intellect, but I also believe God expects me to pay attention and to make use of the facilites he has given me. "whatever is not of faith is sin" Unless I arrive at understanding and conviction about the things that I believe matter to God, I cannot know I am walking in the correct path of His will. I have many fragments, and it is my need and my desire to align them in harmony so that I am not "double minded" or "tossed by every wind of doctrine". Jim |
