| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1505 Registered: 6-2006  |
By the way, what did you mean by... "Thank you so much for helping me decide that Lutheranism won't work for me." Just curious... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2843 Registered: 10-2004  |
Honestwitness, Yes, Methodists are Arminian. Baptists can range anywhere from extreme Arminianism to five-point Calvinism. Most churches in the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) denomination are Arminian (except for believing in eternal security), but some are Calvinist. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2844 Registered: 10-2004 |
Interestingly, before Dr. Thomas Welch invented pasteurized grape juice in 1869, almost all churches used fermented wine for communion. Unfermented grape juice is a very new phenomenon in Christian history, and came about due to the unBiblical "temperance movement" in the 19th century. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_alcohol Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 01, 2009) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 878 Registered: 7-2005  |
What I meant, Grace Alone, is that this thread told me about Lutheranism's tendency to be free with the alcohol and even the beer jokes. That helped me decide it's not for me. I don't agree with Adventism that Jesus turned water into unfermented grape juice. I know that grape juice is a fairly recent invention. I believe that Jesus and all the patriarchs and apostles drank wine. It's just me. I have a personal objection to alcohol. My mother always hated it, because it killer her father when she was only 16. She really loved him and said he was kind and gentle. He wasn't one of the violent, abusive alcoholics. In fact, if he hadn't died, she would never even have known about his drinking problem. My grandmother told me he drank an entire fifth of whiskey on the day he died. He left a young wife and three young daughters. He was a good man, who always brought home his paycheck and treated his family with love and kindness. He was just gripped by alcohol. I never got to know my own grandfather, because of alcohol. For people like that, I believe church should be a place that contributes to abstinence and healingan not a place of temptation. Maybe other people throughout the centuries have not been restricted from using fermented drinks at home and in church, but that doesn't mean the Lord will allow me to do so. In my own personal walk with the Lord, I don't have a clear conscience about participating in serving alcohol to people when they are remembering the Lord's crucifiction, if there is any chance there is even one person in the sanctuary who struggles with abuse of alcohol. But that's just me. I don't condemn any of you for your beliefs and practices. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5148 Registered: 9-2006  |
Honestwitness, you are not alone in this, I could never attend a church that serves alcoholic beverages in any form for whatever purpose and the reason is simple, I cannot drink alcohol. I was an alcoholic and I also know the misery it has caused me and my whole family. Then after my youngest son was grown, in fact about four years ago, alcohol came within a hair breadth of taking his life. He will never be the same again and his head is reconstructed of Titanium. He has no sense of smell or taste. He still has terrific headaches. He is divorced and raising his son by himself and alcohol was a very contributing factor to that. My wife still, after 40 years cannot breath well through her nose at night because I broke it when she tried to wake me from an alcoholic stupor. Alcoholics cannot touch booze, it is death to them. You don't have to take my word, just attend an AA meeting, I do not and have not had to attend AA meetings, because God delivered me, but I attended them before I was delivered, any of those alcoholics will tell you that if they are truthful. So if I visited a church which served wine at communion, I could not partake of the Lord's supper with my brothers and that would be a disaster to me. It would cause bitterness at them. Alcohol is no joke, I don't mind when people have a beer around me, I don't get all hung up about it. I really don't care how people try to justify alcohol in church, it is not correct. I don't think its a sin to imbibe small amounts of alcohol, but I think is is a grave sin to serve it at communion, because I know that there are others like me all over this world, there is an alcoholics anonymous meeting all over the states in nearby towns and also alanon meetings where women and men share their grief in living with alcoholic husbands and wives. There is an alcoholic in a church near you and you can take that to the bank. If you deny a brother or sister the lords supper with you by serving something he or she cannot possibly accept, I think that would be the gravest of sins and the gravest of omissions. You think about that. And further more Pegg is so wrong about non-alcoholic churches having baggage, its the alcoholic churches who have the baggage of legalism, because they are trying to reproduce what they think is God while offending other brothers and sisters who cannot possibly take the chance of a walk in hell again. Not ever. Honestwitness, keep looking and keep the faith and God will bring your husband out, now don't you give up or get discouraged, Have faith in God. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1506 Registered: 6-2006 |
HW, My point of Lutherans having a good sense of humor didn't mean drinking or getting drunk. Not at all. Just to be clear I meant that we had a sense of humor about ourselves. Usually it has to do with many of us being stubborn Norwegians.  Hence the "frozen chosen" joke. I understand how you feel about alcoholism, as my Granddad was an alcoholic as well. (He was not Lutheran). In that respect I can see where the Lutheran Church might not be for you. Traditionally, Lutherans have served wine, and have been offering grape juice in recent years to those who chose to abstain from the Manischewitz. Again, I do hope you find a church home you love! Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on July 01, 2009) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1507 Registered: 6-2006 |
River, "but I think is is a grave sin to serve it at communion," You know how much I love and respect your feelings, but are you saying that Jesus sinned? Do you believe I'm sinning when I partake of it? me | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2848 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would add to Leigh Anne's questions the following: why would Jesus tell His followers to partake of it, when He knew that drunkards would get saved and join the Church? In fact, Paul even acknowledges that some of the Christians he was writing to in Corinth were former drunkards (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Jeremy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2007 |
As long as we are celebrating the Lord's supper in rememberance of HIM and his sacrifice for US... does it really matter to GOD if the drink is wine, or grape juice.... or even root beer ? Personally I do not drink alcohol because I do not LIKE it. As far as I am concerned personally.. it is a shame to ruin perfectly good grape juice... the fruit of the vine by letting it get rotten before drinking it. I do not condemn those who partake of a sip of wine at communion, if they believe in their heart that is the right thing to do and they don't have an alcohol problem. I just personally can't stand the taste of it and don't feel I would receive the intended Blessing of the communion service if I were to partake of something that (to me )tastes rotten and knowing I would be struggling to not make a horrible face and would have to have gum or something right away to get the taste out of my mouth...I would be thinking of how to get rid of that taste without drawing attention to myself instead of receiving the blessing intended by the service. Also I believe alcohol (even a sip) should NOT be an option for children under any circumstances... church should not (IMO) be the place for starting children aquiring a taste for alcohol. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5150 Registered: 9-2006 |
If there is a brother or sister who cannot possibly partake with you, yes, I am convinced in my heart you have committed a grave sin and a grave offense and a grave omission. The communion is to be taken together as one in Christ, it is not just vertical, it is horizontal. Christ could never sin, but we can by our actions toward others and we do. If there is not one there who cannot partake, there is no sin, if there is, it is sin, because they cannot be a part with you. It is not him who sins by not partaking, it is you. Now you claim that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, he is also Lord of the body. The communion is of the utmost importance to every Christian to be taken with others and if you do not realize this, then you have not discerned his body. We tend to think of the Lords supper as only unto Jesus and it is in remembrance of his death, burial and resurrection, But Jesus took a towel and the basin and washed the disciples feet to demonstrate the love they were to have for one another and that was his command, to do to one another as he did to them. Peter was going to disallow him and separate himself, but Jesus told him that if he did, he could not be a part of him. Sure you love and respect me and I you and that is how it should be. I am not trying to put something on you, I am simply telling you that there a many people like me out there that cannot imbibe alcohol in any form, not even colds meds like Nyquil. Now you say you love me, then knowing this, would you insist on serving alcohol in communion with me knowing full well that it could with about 98% chance destroy my walk with God? As I said, don't take my word for it, go down to AA and listen a while. Watch when they stand and say "My name is Jane Doe and I am an alcoholic" That is the one thing they have to admit, it is not an option and it is deadly serious. Hey sister, I have done spent my life in a hell, so you can't add to it here, I know what alcoholism is, you can never know the real horror of that kind of hell unless you've lived it. I'm not trying to rail on anybody here, I am just trying to acquaint you with some hard facts. Alcohol is a mind bending drug. the Bible gives a good description of it in Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (fermented) Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again. Perfect description of an alcoholic. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1508 Registered: 6-2006 |
River, I don't dispute your issues with alcoholism. I'm not even saying that I believe communion absolutely HAS to be served with wine. In fact, my friend Chaplain W. Hall offered Diet Coke with communion on the fly once when he was serving in Iraq. My issue was the claim you made that it is a grave sin to serve it at communion. Jesus served it. It's one thing to say that it would be a sin for you or any other alcolic to drink wine at communion. I get that. No one is forcing you to attend a church that serves wine. But you have made a blanket statement and accused everyone, including our Lord and Savior that we are commiting a grave sin. You can point the finger at me all you want. I couldn't give a flying fig. But to say that Jesus was commiting a grave sin by serving wine (yes it was REAL wine) is blasphemy, and a grave sin in itself. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5151 Registered: 9-2006 |
When you accuse me of blasphemy against my Lord, that's as far as far as you go. We're done here. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 777 Registered: 1-2003  |
Taking a DEEP breath and counting to 10 . . . 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 . . . Anyone want to join me. HE loves us all. Richard rtruitt@mac.com . | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2007 |
Differences in people, differences of opinions, BUT we are ALL children of the SAME GOD. Maybe we should spend more time on here discussing the things we have in common instead of our individual differences..... Just makes me sad to see anyone take differences of opinion so personally. We are all entitled to our own opinions, and we each feel OUR opinion is the correct one, but I am sure it does not elevate or please our Lord when he see's us bickering like school children. Some beliefs are very dear to each of us, maybe we can agree to disagree on NON Salvation issues and come together in peace as brothers and sisters in Christ. This forum has been such a blessing to me, and I know to the rest of us, please, lets not let personal differences of opinion spoil it. I am sure Satan grins from ear to ear when he sees God's children bickering about spiritual matters. I don't want to make Satan happy... I want to feel the Lord Jesus smiling down on us. Francie | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 879 Registered: 7-2005 |
An interesting quandary. How much of what was allowed in Bible times should be allowed today? The Patriarchs had multiple wives, but for us, in our culture, that would be a sin. Paul gave instructions to slaves and slaveowners on how to treat each other, without actually condemning the institution of slavery itself. But, for us to own slaves now would be a sin. So, is it possible that the Holy Spirit has given the Body of Christ progressively higher standards as we grow into maturity? I don't know. I'm just wondering. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1509 Registered: 6-2006 |
I'm finished here as well. Honestwitness, I hope the information Raven and I provided was helpful and was taken in the spirit intended. Again, I wish you well and hope you find the church family that suits you best. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5152 Registered: 9-2006 |
I was dancin' with my darlin' To the Tennessee waltz.. My arch enemy I happened to see.... He cut in on..my dance with.. my darlin' and he stole..my darlin' from me.. I am still trying to figure out what happened here. I got one big question. How do he do that? I went to the next town which was 42 miles away to get some specialized work on my bike and I tried to figure this thing out all the way over there and back. Beats the H out of me! River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1510 Registered: 6-2006 |
River, Nothin' is going to come in between you and me. You are my dear friend. This isn't the first time I drove somebody crazy and it won't be the last! Love you ~ me | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1713 Registered: 4-2000  |
One of my clients is a well-known alcoholism counselor. As someone who lost his family and profession due to his past drinking problem, I asked him today what he does when he attends his church that serves fermented wine (he is a former ELCA Lutheran pastor). He said drinking real wine at his church did not cause a problem for him, but it might for others who had abused alcoholic beverages. In recent years, at the ELCA, they have both grape juice and wine he said. If a choice is given, he always drinks grape juice. Anyway, he said that not every recovering alcoholic is affected, in a negative way, by drinking wine at communion. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2008 |
THE LAW OF LOVE ROMANS CHAPTER 14 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? ] 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food/drink, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food/drink the one for whom Christ died. 17 FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT EATING AND DRINKING, BUT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE AND JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food/drink. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor DRINK WINE nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for Whatever is not from faith is sin. . |
