| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10103 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hi, all--sorry I missed a day. Yes, that tour was a sort-of "landmark" day for me. I cannot overstate how creepy those places felt. The darkness, especially in that "church of the vision" and in James and Ellen's house where she first wrote out the Great Controversy vision, was tangible. We all had physical reactions to it. Yesterday was truly amazing. We went with our friend who had gone to the Heritage Village with us to a small SDA church where she had been asked to preach months ago. She is actually transitioning out of Adventism, and the past six months have been a time of great paradigm shifts for her. She has met Jesus and is a true Born-again Christ-follower and is negotiating the details of completely leaving. She knew for some time before this weekend that she would have to preach the unadulturated gospel. Although this church is tiny and very historic SDA, it is nevertheless the home of several faculty members at Andrews University. Three other local formers as well as us attended, praying throughout. She had a large drawing chart on the platform with her, and she opened with the Matthew 19 account of the rich young ruler. She pointed out that Jesus said there was NO ONE who was good except ONE: God. From there she presented the fact of human depravity, using Ephesians 2 and some other passages to show that we are completely objects of wrath, spiritually dead. Totally dead—walking around but totally dead. She used the drawing pad to show that we are born dead in Adam with an impenetrable barrier between us and God. She showed that at the cross, Jesus' blood pours down and offers forgiveness, cleansing, righteousness, and life. She explained that God draws us—He goes to us—and draws us out of darkness into forgiveness and cleansing...and into being born again. She showed that when we are born again, we go from being dead in Adam to being alive IN CHRIST. She read texts to show each thing. Then she talked about the new covenant. She made the point that people say those who believe the law was fulfilled just want to go and sin. She said, "God Himself lives in us. How can we desire to sin when our Creator, the God of the Universe, is living in us?" She finally went to Galatians 4, where Paul expounds on Hagar and the children of slavery in contrast with Sarah and her children of promise. "Throw out the bondwoman," she read... The five of us sat there praying—and as she explicated Galatians 4 and the first part of 5, the church grew unbelievably quiet. A couple of us on the "prayer row" actually began to cry as the truth of the new covenant and the gospel became more and more clear. Several of us formers had prayed beforehand that evil would be bound and kept out that morning, that the spirit of Adventism would be bound and that people would be able to hear the gospel clearly. The Holy Spirit was profoundly present—at least those of us praying were impacted by Him. It seemed the whole audience was also impacted, because they were absolutely silent as she drove home the reality of living in the finished work of Jesus. Then she said that she had come to realize as an adult, after spending several years in pastoral youth work, that she had been keeping a foot in both camps: one in the camp of the gospel, and one in the camp of death and good works. She said she had come to realize she had to repent and place both feet firmly in the new covenant, where she would be in Christ. Then she prayed, and in her prayer she prayed that God would create cognitive dissonance in those present and not let them rest until they knew the truth of the gospel. It was a powernful, earnest, humble, submissive prayer, and I was deeply moved. Us two "criers" on the prayer row were irrepressibly sniffling and wiping our eyes by the time it was over. Interestingly, people seemed warmer and friendlier after the sermon than before. The man who had looked at us and refused to meet our eyes or talk to us when we walked in (I was wearing jewelry—not flashy but noticeable—and only after asking our friend if she wanted me to wear or not wear it and receiving the "go ahead" to do whatever I felt comfortable with) came and spoke warmly to us and shook our hands. I just pray that God will complete what He began (another fact she pointed out in her sermon) and bring people to Himself. It was an amazing church service. We had a haystack supper with another family of "formers" and spent a wonderful evening talking, laughing, and enjoying being together. About sundown (you have to know that it gets dark here between 10:00-10:30) we went with our host for a walk with the host dog (!). It had rained while we were at dinner, but by the time we drove back to our host's home, the weather had cleared and the sky was beautiful with puffy clouds. All the lawns and fields had steam rising from them after the rain, and there was light fog that hugged the ground and diffused the light from occasional street lamps. Near our host's home is a cemetery with headstones dating from the 1800's. It was truly startlingly beautiful to walk through that graveyard with the light ground fog and the fireflies sparking in the mist. It's just so different from the So Cal desert... It was a lovely ending to an impacting day. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10104 Registered: 12-2003 |
Today we went to church at The Chapel, the church that is hosting the Tour of Encouragement in St. Joseph. The senior pastor has been gone this past week, but he was back today although he didn't preach. He met us and Dale and Carolyn in the narthex, and we went to a Sunday School class with him and his wife. He is a warm person who is extremely supportive of these meetings and has advertised extensively in the evangelical community. One of the associate pastors preached, and his sermon was amazing. He was an older man, but He knows Jesus, and he knows the gospel! He preached such a powerful, compelling sermon on what it means to be free in Christ that both Richard and I teared up repeatedly during it. We had lunch at our host's house with Dale and Carolyn (salmon baked in orange juice seasoned with rosemary, onion, salt, and pepper...oh my!), and after lunch we played for Dale and Carolyn a CD of John Carter of the Carter Report preaching an entire sermon debunking Dale Ratzlaff (sometimes called "Ratzclaff" and "Ratcliff"). It is a sermon which one Michigan pastor has passed out to many people in the conference during the past few months. The sermon is absolutely full of deceit and outright untruths and misrepresentations. He talked about how hurt Dale was by the church, how Adventists know the gospel and preached a clear gospel declaration to prove it, and proceeded after preaching the gospel to completely slander Dale. The whole thing was devious and false, and a great number of people have heard it or other things like it. When it was over, Dale turned to the beatitudes and read about being blessed when people would slander and revile one and say all manner of evil against one falsely for Jesus' sake. Today has been mellow; tomorrow we begin some prep for the meetings and will also begin having some other appointments and tours. I'll keep you posted. Thank you for praying; please keep praying. One of the major organizers of this venue is experiencing unexpected (but not surprising) distractions including Adventist relatives and other problems. Please keep this family and all the rest of those involved in prayer. I am so aware that all of us are part of this tour. The prayers of everyone are making this whole thing possible. God is good. I'll keep you updated! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 879 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen; I'm praying for the people in that church and also for the young lady tour guide whom you met earlier. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7181 Registered: 3-2004  |
Continuing to pray for the ToE and all involved. God is triumphant. He won the battle at the cross. A favorite verse of mine is Heb 5:15 where it says He will never leave us or forsake us. Our awesome God has everything in His control. Diana L | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 623 Registered: 2-2008  |
What an amazing sermon to present at an Adventist church... I especially loved the part about keeping her feet in both camps. so true. I pray to God that He continues to draw people to Him, that the Holy Spirit continues His work. ~vivian p.s. Hi Skeeter~ please contact me through e-mail (listed on my profile on member's side) or through facebook! | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 331 Registered: 1-2007 |
Continuing to pray for the meetings and for all those participating as well as who will attend. Thanks so much Colleen for keeping us updated. Is there anyway that this thread can be moved up to the top? I am wondering if many people are missing this because it is so far down. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 418 Registered: 2-2003  |
Great testimonies! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10108 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi, all--as I write, we're circling at the airport in Chicago. We are picking up Paul Carden whose flight was supposed to arrive at 10:21 Chicago time. We just went in and checked, and his flight has been delayed to 11:37. (Michigan time, BTW, is an hour later than Chicago's time...) I just want to ask you to pray—for Paul who is still in the air, for us as we drive back during the wee hours and as we circle around in a bad part of town, and especially for the meetings that begin tomorrow evening. After spending several hours touring the Andrews campus today, I realize profoundly how dark the theological base of Adventism is. There is a "Grace Garden" just outside the Pioneer Memorial Church that horrified me. It's highly symbolic, and the plaque with the legend on it explains the garden. It is set up with the Ten Commandments at one end, representing, according to the sign, God the Father. It is set behind seven round stone pillars—the days of the week—and is directly across from the cross. In consummate "backwards" theology, the legend directs one trough the "narrow gate" that descends down seven stairs—called the days of creation—to the foot of the cross. From the cross one turns and is drawn to the Ten Commandments where one is drawn into the presence of God and experiences intimacy wit Him. That's what it says. Moreover, there is another way besides the way of the cross to get to "God"/Ten Commandments: the quiet way of the living water (there's a stream representing the water of life) and the Holy Spirit that leads through the rose arbor to the commandments/God. In other words, there is more than one way to God. The legend points out one can't get to God without Jesus/Holy Spirit, but it clearly says you can get to the Commandments/God either by way of the cross or by way of the Spirit. Interestingly, there is no foot path to God through the arbor and the way of the Spirit. Another startling thing, to me, is the fact that a great many of the buildings, including the church, have horn-like pagodas on top. They serve no discernible architectural function other than decoration, but they are spikey "horns" that have little turned-up curls all the way down. Pagodas are traditional eastern devices used to keep the spirits from settling on buildings. At Andrews, these pagodas are on top of the entrance to the campus, above the doorways on the church, the girls' dorm, and various other buildings. The steeple on the church is even a pagoda—with no cross on it, BTW. I just know that I see so clearly the true spiritual nature of Adventism. When River says there is only ONE way to deal with it—by prayer—because it is driven by a spirit, he is 100% right. So I am asking you all to pray. God is faithful; He gives us the privilege of praying for one another. The pastor and associate pastor graciously spent an hour or two of their time just talking with us and helping us get ready for tomorrow. They are very supportive, and we thank God and pray also for them. From somewhere in Chicago, Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7189 Registered: 3-2004 |
WOW!!! Very symbolic of adventism. Two ways to God!!! I have been praying that God break the spirit of adventism where ever you are and at all the meetings. I feel like I am right beside you as your write. Thank you Father for caring for the Tinkers, the Ratzlaffs, the ministers at this church and Paul Carden. Keep them safe as they travel and as they congregate to teach others what adventism believes. Be with all the formers as they travel there and with all the others who want to be informed about what SDAs believe. Be with the adventists that attend. Take the veil off the heart, eyes and mind that they will meet Jesus. Fill the rooms with your Holy Spirit. You are so awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2851 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, wow! That "Grace Garden" certainly does sound horrifying. As do the pagodas. Adventism really is nothing but a false pagan religion. I'm praying for these meetings and that the truth about Adventism will be known. I would also like to request prayer as I just mailed 5 more printed versions of my website yesterday to Christian countercult apologists/organizations (making 7 in total). Please pray that those receiving it (and also those I've emailed about it) will read it and see what Adventism actually teaches. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 07, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5178 Registered: 9-2006  |
Just catching up on the tour, seems like there are so many things at once to take care of I can't get to all of them, this being summer and the work load is tremendous to get things done by fall. Colleen brought my mind back to what I have been wanting to speak about. Many of you need to learn that you can bind these spiritual forces that array themselves through Adventism against you. You can do this through the name of Jesus, Jesus said John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. This of course must be done in faith. Jesus forbid the spirits to speak and you can do the same through and by his authority and faith in his name. You don't have too allow this spirit behind Adventism to work through your relatives against you in your own house hold and you need to learn to do this. You can bind these spirits from working so that they (Relatives) can hear the Gospel, but you've got to be serious about this with God. Your not asking for a new Cadillac here you are asking to do Gods work and he will confirm his word. Just remember he (god) is no bubble gum machine and this is serious business. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5179 Registered: 9-2006 |
Also in order to do this you need to lay it all down, Lay aside everything and mean business with God. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5180 Registered: 9-2006 |
Speaking of creepy, as I drove through Hermiston to the restaurant where I was to meet with the other folks, I past an Adventist church, not a sign of a sign that it was a place of worship to Christ, it felt so evil. Right next door was a Christian Church which had a small white cross at the peak of the roof and it felt so light. I thought, "My lord!" It was all so weird. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10112 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praying, Jeremy. We have had the first meeting in St. Joseph. It was well-attended; someone counted 250 there, and almost all those attending were evangelicals from area churches. There were some formers (maybe 20 or so), and a small number of Adventists, but the rest were local Christians. This is the largest number of Christians we've talked to, I think, on this trip. Paul Carden was clear and compelling, as was Dale. The audience was very responsive and interested. The Q & A went well, but we did find a couple of questions from some Adventists. One was a questions about why we don't allow people to stand up and ask questions but "hide" behind the questions cards. It was signed "Pastor _________". It was a name Richard and Dale both recognized, and it was from a former student of Dale's. As at Lincoln, Dale said we do it this way so that no one grabs and hogs the mike (which the questioner definitely WOULD have done if given the chance...) Altogether it was a really good meeting, and people stayed in the narthex talking and buying books, etc, and there's great interest in tomorrow. Paul's plane landed about 11:31 last night, and we got home about 3:15 this morning. We spent the trip home letting him pick our brains. It's always great to talk to Paul because he asks lots of questions and always is working to distill what we say into succinct, believable summary statements. This morning we went with Paul and our host and Esther Aust to Battle Creek for a tour through the Heritage Village. Yes, it was our second trip in five days, but it was important for Paul to see it. This time we had a young man who will be a freshman at Andrews this fall. He was earnest and sweet (if a bit monotone), but he was a good guide. Again, I really felt uncomfortable in James and Ellen's home where she wrote out the Great Controversy vision, but this time our guide didn't pray in Ellen's room. Richard told me that he had been praying that God would prevent a prayer there if He would not be glorified, and the kid didn't pray! I was extremely relieved. We went again into the last station, the 1857 meeting room where the Michigan Conference was formed, and that place just evoked the old wash of physical reactions. I realized I had felt the same way last Thursday, but it had culminated in that amazing encounter with our guide where I couldn't control my crying. Today it seemed as if we'd just end with an anticlimactic fizzle. And then Paul asked our guide how he would explain salvation. The kid was totally thrown off guard and floundered. Paul didn't let him off the hook; he asked him if he believed he had to do anything to ensure being saved, if he was obligated to keep the Sabbath. He asked him if Jesus was enough. The poor kid was uncomfortable and just didn't quite know what to say. Paul was relentless, but he was kind as well. When the poor boy had sufficiently demonstrated that he couldn't articulate the gospel, our host agin went up to the podium and turned the pages of the Bible. As she turned the pages, she asked the boy if there was a version he preferred reading, and he said the Spanish one. At any rate, our host turned to 1 John 5:11-12 and asked him to read it: And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. Then Paul said, "Keep reading; read the next verse." These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. As he read it, his face changed. It softened. And then our host said, "Can we pray for you?" He said yes. So we all got up and gathered around him. Paul prayed for him because he speaks Spanish, and could say his name properly. Paul put his arm around the boy's shoulder and prayed for God to guide his life, to reveal Himself to him. He prayed that as he matured and became a husband and eventually a father that he would be a man of God and lead his family and live for God. When Paul was done praying, the boy looked emotional. Our host hugged him, and his eyes welled up. Then Paul hugged him, and is eyes began to brim over. I hugged him, and he was crying then as Richard shook his hand and Esther followed with a hug. Our host and I were crying, too, and everyone was emotional. Our host stayed behind and gave him her email and phone number so he can contact her when he comes to Andrews. She said he was just sitting in that meeting room crying his eyes out. I don't know what will happen, but I know something DID happen today; that young man had an experience with the Holy Spirit he will never forget, for sure. I know God broke through the veil today--if only for a brief time. But the gospel did "get in". So tomorrow we have a meeting in the morning and another in the evening, and it's 12:06 AM here...at least we're not in Chicago traffic!! Please continue to pray. There was much less overt opposition than in Lincoln, but we also know we're not done here yet. We love you all and pray for you, too. This whole forum family is such a blessing! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10113 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I just read your post. You are absolutely right. Thank you for posting that reminder again. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7194 Registered: 3-2004 |
WOW!!! God does bring His unexpected adventures to you, doesn't He!!! Another soul has heard the gospel of Jesus. Thank you awesome God. I continue to pray for the ToE. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2852 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow--praise God for His mighty working!! Praying, Jeremy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2007 |
I am thanking the Lord for showing you guys just which verses to share with that young man to reach his heart. Hopefully he will keep in touch and learn REAL truth. Francie | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1716 Registered: 4-2000  |
Most Seventh-day Adventist churches (at least in North America) still do not exhibit an exterior cross. I was repeatedly told that the cross was a pagan symbol as I was growing up in western North Dakota. Likewise, I grew up in a German-speaking SDA church that was crossless both inside and outside. All that remains today of that church are two dilapidated outhouses and a cemetery. This is where my parents and two brothers are buried. The church building was sold by the Conference many years ago. The head deacon in that SDA church once admonished me in my youth that "All those non-Adventist preachers talk about it is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. But we need to keep the Sabbath and pay our tithe." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2855 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dr. Paul Petersen, SDA scholar, Field Secretary for the South Pacific Division of Seventh-day Adventists, and the Biblical Research Director for the Adventist Church in the South Pacific, said the following at the Adventist Theological Society's "Trinity Symposium" in 2006:
That seems to be a very common line of reasoning in Adventism. And notice that they like to repeat the name of Jesus in mockery three times! Jeremy |
