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Jrt
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Username: Jrt

Post Number: 685
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skeeter,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in and share some thoughts from my own wrestling with the concept of the orthodox trinity ...

# 2 You mention that you don't "see Jesus going to the Father to offer himself for my sins, because he already DID that at the cross. I don't believe he needs to offer himself over and over every time I sin. Once was enough."

So true ... Jesus doesn't have to offer Himself over and over (Heb. 9:12).

There was something that revolutionized how I saw the orthodox trinity ...

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:18,19; NASB)


Based on the orthodox trinity ... God, the Father was IN Christ, while Christ hung on the cross. The Father was on the cross IN Jesus. Because Father and Son are ONE BEING.

That thought began to change my paradigm of the Father - I saw the Father in Adventism as someone Big and stoic and Jesus as the "sacrificial" kind lamb. My concept of God the Father and Jesus totally changed ...

#3 You said, "Jesus redeemed our lost nature on the cross." Ummm ... Jesus paid a debt we couldn't pay. Jesus didn't "gain" back for us the ability not to sin (if that was what was behind your words) ... Lets look at Rom. 5:8-11; ESV
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


It is not so much the concept of a new nature as taught in the Adventist system - so we can now behave "rightly". Rather, we are brought from death to life (John 5:24). Those who believe on the Son have life (1 John 5:11-14) - those who don't believe on the Son don't have life. So we aren't necessarily given a new nature as taught in Adventism - we are given life itself - a life connected/reconciled to God through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God. Our spirits are resurrected - brought from death to life. We were dead (not connected - not even seeking after God [Rom. 3] to being made alive in Christ to God.

This centers around the concept that we actually have a "spirit/heart/soul" (essence of who we are) which Adventism doesn't teach or believe [Adventism teaches we are the "breath" of God] - but scripture does teach we have a "spirit/heart/soul (2 Cor. 5:1-9) This is a whole 'nother topic, but interconnected.

#3 & 4 is interesting, but briefly ... Satan doesn't necessarily war for our souls ... we are born spiritually dead, because we were in Adam (Rom. 5:12-17) ... slaves to sin ... Satan and his minions certainly harasses us ... and we war not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers - but Satan has no power over God's children that are alive in Christ. Yes, we are harassed, but we are told in scripture to resist the devil to "stand" in the armor of God and watch the devil flee (Eph. 6:10-20).

Keri

(Message edited by jrt on July 17, 2009)
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter

Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

#3 You said, "Jesus redeemed our lost nature on the cross." Ummm ... Jesus paid a debt we couldn't pay. Jesus didn't "gain" back for us the ability not to sin (if that was what was behind your words) ... Lets look at Rom. 5:8-11; ESV
No, that isn't what I meant. I guess maybe I should have worded it differently... I dont believe there will ever be a time on this earth that we are able to live completely without sin.To think we could I feel would be a sin in itself. But Jesus paid the PENALTY for our sins for us. Whether or not we are willing to ACCEPT his gift is up to us.
Jrt
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Username: Jrt

Post Number: 687
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last clarification ... When made "alive" to Christ we now have Christ living in us ... We are no longer slaves to sin ... meaning our default mode WAS sin ... for those Who are alive in Christ the "default" mode NOW IS to honor and glorify God - haven't heard of any truly born-again Christians going out with premedited murder :-) ... but we do continue to do "deeds" that are not godly or loving or caring of others ...

Just wanted to clarify that ...

Keri
Jrt
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Username: Jrt

Post Number: 689
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Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skeeter,
#4 "Jesus could not have sinned, because there was no sin in Him."

This is true, but I don't think it is the "full" understanding ...

Jesus could not have sinned, because He Is GOD. When Jesus was on earth He was 100% human and 100% God. I know it is hard for my finite mind to wrap itself around this, but scripture supports it. (John 1:1-16; especially 14) "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus could not have sinned, because He is God.

Does that make sense?

What other questions might you have?

Keri

P.S. The whole Great Controversy theme in Adventism is wrong ...

Here are some threads you might find interesting reading through ...

http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8438.html?1236458087

http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8412.html?1235968486

http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8424.html?1235959374

Scroll down to the bottom of this thread and you'll see a discussion on the trinity.

Blessings and happy studying ...
Animal
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Username: Animal

Post Number: 576
Registered: 7-2008


Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You say Jesus couldnt sin cause he is God...

I agree !!!

But answer this......

Being God, how could Jesus "die" on Calvary?

Can God die??


Animal...just curious
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter

Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Jesus could not have sinned, because He is God.

Does that make sense? " Keri

Yes Keri, I do understand that Jesus is fully God. That is why there is and was (even while on this earth) NO sin IN him. :-)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2884
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Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Animal,

Yes God can die if He becomes a human and suffers physical death. :-) That doesn't mean that He ceased to exist, or even that His humanity (spirit/soul) ceased to exist, though. Human physical death means the spirit is separated from the body. That is what we experience when we die, and, being fully human, that is what Jesus experienced when He died.

Jeremy
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2887
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Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OTHER FILES

The following are updated URLs for some files that I've linked to on this forum in the past. GeoCities is shuttting down on October 26, and the old links to my GeoCities account that I've posted previously will no longer work at that time.

Here is the new address for my webpage entitled "Ellen White's "Inspired" Bigotry, Racism, and Discrimination!": http://www.cultorchristian.com/egwbigotry.html

Here are the new links for the Frank Gonzalez audio clips that I posted here and here:

http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-Adventistgod.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-godIsAdventist.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-AdamandEveAdventist.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-2.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-3.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-4.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-5.mp3
http://www.cultorchristian.com/audio/2003SDACMclip-love.mp3

Here are the new URLs for the Glendale AZ SDA/stained glass images that I posted here:

http://www.cultorchristian.com/images/stainedglass.jpg
http://www.cultorchristian.com/images/stainedglass2.jpg
http://www.cultorchristian.com/images/glendalesda.jpg

And here is the new URL for the letter from the Arizona Conference of Seventh-day Adventists regarding Soo (the new SDA prophet), that I posted here:

http://www.cultorchristian.com/sdaazconferenceletter.html

Jeremy
contact@cultorchristian.com
Hec
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Username: Hec

Post Number: 366
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't Frank Gonzalez the Spanish Voice of prophecy speaker?

Hec
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2888
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, he's the Speaker/Director of La Voz de la Esperanza (the Voice of Hope): http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=68

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on July 19, 2009)
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter

Post Number: 121
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And here is the new URL for the letter from the Arizona Conference of Seventh-day Adventists regarding Soo (the new SDA prophet), that I posted here: "

Jeremy, I downloaded the two files and listened to them last night... well, part of it. Soo was so hard to understand and the conversation in general was so slow moving that it was totally boring... I do not agree that the SDA's see her as a "Prophet". She said she had a dream and was told by (what SHE thinks was an Angel) that she needed to come to the U.S. and meet with certain individuals in the SDA church and get them to print Bibles, as well as Great Controversy, Steps to Christ and (I forget which other) EGW books in her native language. She is Laotian.
She never said she was a Prophet and the ones speaking with her and questioning her sure did not seem (to me at least ) to think of her that way at all.. it seemed they were interested in her dream of an "Angel" asking her to have those books printed in her language... that is all I got from it. The SDA church has a LOT of problems, they teach a LOT of HERESY. That is true. BUT , I don't think it is playing fair to say they are accepting this woman as a new "prophet" just because they show an interest in the dream the woman had and the claim that she was healed of cancer by the use of herbs, etc. In fact, when they questioned her about her "cancer" she apparently did have breast cancer which was removed with surgery ... but the other cancers she said she had,, apparently she was "diagnosed" by only one doctor, and that was her own Uncle... who knows what methods of diagnosing her Uncle used.
Anyway, I think if this woman was not in the SDA church, but in a church that you or I were attending and she came and told this same story that it would be listened to with interest also.
I just think we need to play fair.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2890
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skeeter,

Soo is a false prophet. The letter I linked to claims her angel "predicted" 9/11 and mentions her "prediction" that her angel guide (whose name is "Jonathan") told her, that something worse than 9/11 would happen in 2005 and then there would a Sunday Law. This was a false prophecy.

Jeremy
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter

Post Number: 122
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BUT .... does the SDA church accept her as a Prophet ? If so, as a whole or maybe just a couple of small groups... just wondering as I had never heard of this woman until yesterday when I saw the link. She made those predictions several years ago, I am just wondering why no one SDA seems to be talking about her if THEY actually do accept her as a prophet..?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 10150
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soo actually created quite a stir a few years ago and was the subject of animated and far-reaching discussion. I believe the rage for her has quieted, but I remember reading reports and hearing of her about 3 or 4 (or perhaps 5-ish) years ago, and many Adventists were quiet convinced God was giving her messages.

Skeeter--when I asked you you thought of Jesus approaching God to take care of our sins, I wasn't talking about "now". I was talking about prior to the cross. Have you imagined Jesus going to the Father to ask for His permission or blessing to come to earth and take our sins?

Colleen
Skeeter
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Username: Skeeter

Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skeeter--when I asked you you thought of Jesus approaching God to take care of our sins, I wasn't talking about "now". I was talking about prior to the cross. Have you imagined Jesus going to the Father to ask for His permission or blessing to come to earth and take our sins?

Colleen

Colleen,
No, I do not believe that Jesus had to go and ask (or beg) the Father for permission. I see Jesus as God equally with the Father, so why would he need to ask "Permission" ? I know that is what EGW said, but like I said before, I was never a big Ellen fan.. I just have realized lately though how much she really DID influence my thoughts/beliefs as her ideas were spoon fed to me through the church without me realizing it. :-( That has become painfully apparent to me when I get these thoughts of different "Bible" passages only to find that they are not actually in the BIBLE but only a figment of Ellens highly active imagination. (Or the imaginations of those she copied them from ). I still have MUCH to learn as well as UN learn. It still makes me angry at times, but mostly it makes me sad... that I believed those things and that many of my relatives (hubbys side) that still believe SDA even though only my MIL is still active in the church.

(Message edited by skeeter on July 20, 2009)
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 2894
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Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just came across the following shocking statements by EGW today:


quote:

"The teachings of Jesus were utterly refused by the Sadducees, as he was animated by a spirit which they refused to acknowledge as manifesting itself thus. They conceived of God as a Supreme Being, exalted above man, and unapproachable by him. Having created man, he left him to control his own life, and shape the events of the world. The doctrine of Christ directly opposed the belief of the Sadducees. The word and works of Christ testified to a divine power which accomplishes miraculous results, of a future, eternal life exalted above the finite life, of God as a Father to the children of men, watchful of their true interests, and guarding them. He taught that God was a rewarder of the righteous, and a punisher of the transgressor. He was not an intangible spirit, but a living ruler of the universe. This gracious Father was constantly working for the good of man, and mindful of all that concerns him. The very hairs of his head are numbered. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the notice of the Heavenly Father, and man is more valuable than many sparrows. Jesus presented before them their ignorance of the Scriptures in assigning to human power that which could be wrought only through the power of the Spirit of God. He declared that their confusion of faith and darkness of mind resulted mainly from this cause, and that spiritual things must be spiritually discerned." (The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume Three, page 47, paragraph 1.)




Notice that she simply, directly denies completely that God is a spirit! (Plus she also sets up a false dichotomy of "spirit" vs. "living," with "living" having to be "physical"!)

And here is the other quote:


quote:

"The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that his life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. He was of as much more value than man as his noble, spotless character, and exalted office as commander of all the heavenly host, were above the work of man. He was in the express image of his Father, not in features alone, but in perfection of character." (The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume Two, page 9, paragraph 1.)




She actually says that the Son was "next in authority" to God! That is the most direct statement of Jesus being lesser than the Father that I have ever seen from EGW!

Notice also that she misquotes Hebrews 1:3 KJV again, and says that the Son was "in" the "express image" of the Father, and she says that this includes "in features"--meaing that the "Son" was (even before His incarnation) a physical carbon copy of the physical "Father"!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on July 20, 2009)
Esther
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Post Number: 505
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Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't want to side track the discussion, but as I skimmed this thread ( I've been gone for several days) I just had to chime in :-) I think SDA's are drawn to prophetic "evidence" for two reasons: 1) because of Ellen and Adventism's base on a prophet, and 2) because of their intense focus on end time issues. I know that growing up, every few years it seemed there was someone who'd "calculated" something about the end of time...and I heard a fair share about Soo also a few years ago. Many people were wondering if God had given her further insight. But even now, I am still continually getting forwards of the most recent David Gates sermon (and from different sources) as someone who's left all for God and has this unique message that is just suited for our times (aka: a prophet who is predicting the end and look, it's coming true because the world as we know it is collapsing). It's so sad cause it's all fear based. But Gates is predicting that this is the end...and I know SOO many SDA's who are on that bandwagon.

I'm all for being careful about what we "peg" them of...with consistence to what occurs in the Christian culture too, but I've seen it over and over again...that Adventist are so easily led down that path of "prophecy".
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great point, Esther. And Jeremy, again thanks for the quotes. I learned that Jesus was "equal" to the Father, but I also learned that He was exalted to the Father's side, that He was "next in authority", that He was all about love and came to reveal the Father which the OT had not done a very good job of revealing.

The thing that disturbs me so much is that Adventism is careful to publicly and usually officially use careful, orthodox-sounding words, but they nevertheless communicate to the members a totally upside down picture of reality, with human (and angelic) free will being the highest value in the universe which God will do ANYTHING to protect.

In reality, we are mere creations. Our wills are His creations. God Himself is the ultimate value in the universe, and God WILL glorify Himself. He doesn't depend upon humanity in any way to vindicate His fairness, worth, right to rule, etc. He is sovereign. We are His creatures. We live and move and have our being in Him. He alone is worthy of glory and honor.

We aren't the center of the universe. God is.

Colleen
Skeeter
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Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"We aren't the center of the universe. God is. "
Colleen


AMEN !!!!!!
We as humans do tend to get self centered at times. 8-/

And yet.... even though we ARE "mere creations" God put such value on US that He came here to earth, took on human form and DIED for US. That is just so unbelievable that GOD values US , His "mere creations" so much that He would do that for US. What an AWESOME GOD we have 8-)
Francie

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