| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2878 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hear the SDAs in their own words: SDA "Trinity" Audio Exposé (Right-click and select "Save Target As..." [or similar] to save to your computer.) This is a collection that I've put together of audio clips of the SDAs themselves discussing the Trinity (most of them being SDA leaders/scholars/theologians/professors). Some of the statements made are very forthright and remarkable admissions, and others are simply very clear statements of anti-Trinitarian heresy. (You can find the sources for this audio compilation listed here.) The MP3 file size is 27.9 MB and the entire running time is a little under 31 min. (For more of an in-depth study and analysis of what Seventh-day Adventism teaches about the Trinity, see the main page at http://www.cultorchristian.com/) Jeremy CultOrChristian.com P.S. I apologize for the somewhat wide range of volume and at times poor quality on the MP3 file--unfortunately some of the audio files I was working with were originally very low in volume and have poor audio quality. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10141 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, wonderful! I can't wait to download and listen! We have to wait until we're on our own internet at home and not on the cellular unit which charges per MB! I'm so glad you've done this! Colleen | ||
| Cordurb Registered user Username: Cordurb Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2009 |
what exactly do SDAs believe regarding this? anyone care to share? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 436 Registered: 8-2008 |
Adventists believe that the Trinity is not one Being in three persons, but three Beings. They believe, not in one God, but in three gods. The unity, for them, is not a unity of essence. They do not see Father, Son, and Spirit as one substance or essence. They see the unity as Father, Son, and Spirit being united in purpose. As such, they are polytheists, not Trinitarians. Jeremy's website CultorChristian.com explains the difference between SDA tritheism and Christian Trinitarianism. (Message edited by bskillet on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 437 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ick! Jeremy, this makes me want to vomit! Someone on there said the word Trinity comes from the combination of Tri and Divinity. Trinity comes from the combination of Tri (three)and uni (one). Christianity does not believe in Tri-Divinity (three Gods). Christianity believes in a God who is both one Being, and yet three persons. Thus, tri-une. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity was so revolution in the history of religious thought that they had to create a new word for it, Trinity. They did not merely say "Three Divinities" as the SDA quote suggests. They were not pagans. (Message edited by bskillet on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2007 |
"Adventists believe that the Trinity is not one Being in three persons, but three Beings." ....... "They see the unity as Father, Son, and Spirit being united in purpose." "Christianity believes in a God who is both one Being, and yet three persons." Ok, what am I missing here ?? Isnt it the same thing ? Three Beings comprising ONE God / One God comprised of three Beings... I always heard (even as a SDA) that there is ONE God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit comprising ONE God. I never heard anything about three God's. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2007 |
When we are Baptized, we are to be Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Does that not sound like 3 persons (Beings) ? Comprising ONE God, yes,, but sure sounds like 3 distinct Beings/ persons.. When Jesus was on EARTH he prayed to his Father in HEAVEN, right ? I know God can be everywhere,,, but if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not 3 individual Beings, then Jesus was essentially praying to himself... ? I always felt they were 3 Beings comprising ONE GOD. I don't know how that works.. but I realize a lot about God is beyond our understanding... but this has me confused... just the wording of it sounds like saying the same thing except using slightly different words. Help ! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2879 Registered: 10-2004 |
Skeeter, Well, it's not surprising that that is what you learned in Adventism, since that is exactly what they teach. 
No, notice that Bskillet didn't say that God is "three Beings" but rather "one Being." That's how there is only one God (monotheism). (You seem to be confusing "beings" and "persons.") Adventism, on the other hand, teaches three separate divine Beings (polytheism/tritheism/three gods). They say they believe in "one God" but they don't mean the same thing that Christians/Trinitarians/monotheists mean ("one divine being").
It's not just saying the same thing using different words. In one case (Trinitarianism/Christianity/monotheism), we have one God (one Being) who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons. In the other case (Adventism/Tritheism), we have three separate Beings who aren't actually "one" at all (except for "one" in purpose, character, etc.). There is a huge difference between the two understandings. True Trinitarianism has always affirmed that God is one infinite, indivisible Spirit Being, without body or parts. The SDA view is actually identical to the Mormon view of the Godhead (three divine beings who are in purpose, in other words Tritheism). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2880 Registered: 10-2004 |
I can't edit my above post now, but that last line should read:
And Mormons also claim to believe in "one God" and also use the term "Trinity." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 16, 2009) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1727 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent expose, Jeremy. Unlike the simple gospel of Jesus Christ, Seventh-day Adventism is incredibly and intentionally complicated. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 439 Registered: 8-2008 |
Skeeter, here's how I think about it: I am one being. In this sense I am like God, sort of. I am also one person. This is the case for all humanity. That is why we humans tend to use the words human being and person interchangeably. God is, as I said, one Being. But, unlike me, He is three-dimensional in His personhood. Admittedly, this is hard to understand, but it only seems like a contradiction if you foist over the human being = human person thing over onto God, who isn't human. The distincitions between your person and my person are distinctions external to us. The distinctions between the persons of the Trinity are internal to God. They are, in a sense, distinctions within God. But the better way to think about it may be to use the Greek words in which the doctrine of the Trinity was originally formulated: God is one ousia (substance or essence) in three hypostases (literally "that which stands beneath"). Hypostasis is actually a Biblical word. It is found in Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is "the express image of [the Father's] hypostasis." The English word person is the translation of hypostasis, but like a lot of Greek words, the English equivalent is just not at all good enough. (Message edited by bskillet on July 17, 2009) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ok, Now I have that song stuck in my head.."God in 3 persons.. Blessed Trinity" and that is WRONG... right ? :-/ So if we pray to GOD or if we pray to JESUS or if we pray for the Holy Spirit,,,, it is all the same thing because they are all the same (substance/ essence) ? Sorry, if I am being dense here.. but I guess thats what aprox 40 years of SDAism gets ya. :-( | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5224 Registered: 9-2006  |
God is the one Gods essence, Jesus is the one Gods essence, The Holy Spirit is the one Gods essence. Zat sound right Jere? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 5225 Registered: 9-2006 |
Skeeter, I haven't ever looked at the song real close, but I think the idea behind the song supports the Trinity. Anybody ever read it close? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10145 Registered: 12-2003 |
Skeeter, the song "Holy, holy, holy" is currently correct in the Adventist hymnal. Prior to 1984, however, the SDA Hymnal that the church officially used since the 1940's, substituted this line: God in three person, blessed Trinity with this line: God over all who rules eternally. Adventists were founded in Arianism; that means that the founders of Adventism were anti-trinitarian and believed that Jesus was NOT the eternal, uncreated God. They believed that Jesus had some sort of beginning, and they believed that the Holy Spirit was a "force" emanating from God. Those early beliefs STILL color Adventists' perception of God. I did not realize until just a very few years ago that I had never understood the Trinity in an orthodox, biblical way even though the church had adapted its language to use orthodox terms for God. Here's an illustration that has helped me. I always believed that Jesus was "fully God". But I understood that statement to mean that, as a piece of apple pie was "fully apple pie", Jesus was "fully God". What I did NOT understand was that Jesus being "fully God" means that He possessed every single attribute of God, not just His portion of the attributes. To illustrate further with my pie analogy (which admittedly is limited, but it helped me): my piece of apple pie would be fully pie. It would contain crust, apples, sugar, cinnamon, and any other ingredients included in the pie. But let's say that the cook let a couple seeds get into the mixture, and to boot she threw in a handful of raisins. My piece of pie may have two raisins in it but neither of the two seeds. Yet it is "fully pie" from my perspective. When we say Jesus is "fully God", however, that means that every single attribute of God is in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit. In other words, if my apple pie is in three "pieces", each piece will contain all the apples, all the raisins, and both the seeds. There will be no difference in the full substance of any of the pieces. Obviously, this is physically impossible...but God is Spirit. Jesus has ALL the attributes of God as does the Spirit as does the Father. But as an Adventist, I understood God to be like a piece of pie: fully "God" but not possessed of all the characteristics the other two persons have. "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity" DOES state the orthodox Trinity. But, if you look at Adventist hymns closely, you'll find that even in the current hymnal, there are still songs that avoid clear trinitarian statements as well as avoiding references to Jesus' blood and the cross. For example, in the hymn "On Jordan's Stormy Banks I Stand", there is a phrase in the second verse (I think it is) that says "God the Son". In the current SDA hymnal, that phrase is changed to "Christ the Sun". I want to suggest some Proclamation reading that will be helpful. The article "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" contains numerous quotes from Adventist sources including EGW to current authors, showing that Jesus within Adventism is not perceived as He is perceived by Christians with a biblical worldview. (Just as an aside: do you believe Jesus could have sinned?) You can read that article here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf Also, you can read a comparison of several classic Christian hymns with the ways they have been edited for use in the SDA hymnals here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2005_JanFeb.pdf Go to the article entitled, "Tell Me Te Old, Old, Story...uh which one?" Some other questions to ask yourself: do you see Jesus as meeker, gentler, less "almighty" than the Father? Do you picture Jesus going to the Father on our behalf to offer Himself for our sin? Do you picture Jesus and Satan in an as-yet unresolved conflict with each other? Do you believe Jesus could have sinned? Do you find Jesus to be mildly "annoying" or insipid or serving a different purpose than the Father? If you answer any of these questions with "yes", you likely don't have a true biblical, orthodox view of the Trinity. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2881 Registered: 10-2004 |
River, Yep, it's sounds right to me. Jeremy | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 441 Registered: 8-2008 |
Colleen, I'm trying to lose weight, so your apple pie analogy is not at all helpful. ;-) Skeeter, Colleen is right. "God in three persons, blessed Trinity," is indeed correct. But Adventism effectively, "God in three Beings, blessed tri-divinity." The hymn says One God, One Being, who exists as three persons. Adventism says three gods, three beings, who are united in purpose and relationship. Skeeter, if you are at all confused by the Trinity, that means you are finally starting to understand Him. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 573 Registered: 7-2008  |
Our Holy God defies human description. Some try to put God in a box and shout "this is God"...Stay away from them people. God told Moses..."I am that I am". Let us leave it at that Animal | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2007 |
"Some other questions to ask yourself: do you see Jesus as meeker, gentler, less "almighty" than the Father? Do you picture Jesus going to the Father on our behalf to offer Himself for our sin? Do you picture Jesus and Satan in an as-yet unresolved conflict with each other? Do you believe Jesus could have sinned? Do you find Jesus to be mildly "annoying" or insipid or serving a different purpose than the Father? " ok, I am newly out of Adventism,, but so far this is my understanding and actually has been even as a SDA which makes me wonder if even feeling that I was a SDA, maybe I was truly not SDA, and yet not truly NOT Sda,, maybe I was just kind of in limbo someplace between true Christianity and SDAism..... ? 1. no, I do not see Jesus as meeker, less almighty than the Father. That cannot be since Jesus said he and the Father are ONE. I had understood it before though to mean one in purpose instead of ONE as in one and the same completely. 2. I dont see Jesus going to the Father to offer himself for my sins, because he already DID that at the cross. I don't believe he needs to offer himself over and over every time I sin. Once was enough. 3. No I do not see Jesus and Satan in an UNRESOLVED conflict. I believe Satan is still trying to steal away our souls from God, even though SATAN himself "lost" as soon as he was cast from Heaven. And Jesus redeemed OUR lost nature for us at the cross. (but I also believe God gives us free will in that we can choose to receive and accept that gift or reject it)so in that instance I believe (from the area talking about predestination)... that while God "predestined" our eternal future in that he has made provision for us all to be accepted, we still have a choice of accepting or rejecting that gift. 4.I do not believe Jesus could have sinned because sin was not in him. I dont know why it was in Adam and Eve... or in Satan,,, it is beyond my understanding how Satan could be in Heaven and make the choices he made to rebell.I wish it had not been, but they (Satan, Eve, and Adam) all made that choice. Jesus "annoying"?? or serving a different purpose than the Father ?? No I do not see that as being even remotely possible. So, am I getting there ? LOL 8-> | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 442 Registered: 8-2008 |
I don't find Jesus to be mild about anything. Truth is always annoying to falsehood, because it drops onto falsehood constantly like Chinese water torture. The Truth, Jesus Christ, was always annoying to me as an SDA because He constantly dripped His acid truth on me, eroding the false foundations I had lived on and not letting me rest at all until I found my rest in Him alone. |
