| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10139 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes! That's it, Clinton--and Hec, you've got it. It's true, Animal, that Adam did break God's law: "Don't touch the tree!" And it's also true that all of us died in him that very day. We are born dead because of Adam. Romans 5, however, describes the fact that sin is not taken into account when there is no law, yet all died from Adam until Moses. Romans 4:15 also says, "Where there is no law, there also is no violation." God holds every man responsible for his own sin, before or after the law and before or after the cross. But He does not account "sins" to people's account when they are not aware of the "sins" they have committed because they do not have the law. Moreoever, when you read Romans 7, it's also clear that sin actually INCREASED after the law was given. People have always been saved the same way--by believing God's promises. He has always had ways to reveal Himself to people so they could respond to Him. Remember, before the law was given, there were Enoch and Noah and Abraham, etc. So God DOES hold each person responsible, but according to Hebrews 10, we who have the more clear and specific revelation of Jesus are held to a higher level of responsibility than are those who merely had the law. And according to Romans 2, Gentiles who do not have the law are not held accountable for the law—but if they obeyed the principles of the law because of their conscience, God credited them with law-keeping. Nevertheless, ALL died in Adam. All are born objects of wrath because Adam disobeyed God's command. The law has nothing to do with our salvation. Salvation is about believing and obeying God. Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2009 |
Going back to Vivian's point for a second, re: the IJ & resting. I "kept" the Sabbath my whole life, but as an adult was terrified of Jesus coming back for us--I had the Sabbath but no rest at all! I believed in my whole heart in EGW as a prophet & took seriously when she wrote about 'overcoming" our sins to pass the IJ. I tried & tried, but kept messing up, so I knew when He came as a "thief in the night" I would be unprepared & lost. When someone told me of the true gospel I had rest for the first time ever. So, from personal experience the law as a way to get rest does not work!!! I'd rather have Jesus! | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 476 Registered: 7-2004 |
Amen! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 651 Registered: 2-2008  |
Now that I look back, I can see how restless and empty I was before I knew that all my sins were forgiven at the cross. Bb~ I agree, the fruit of the Spirit is what defines us as New Covenant Christians, not the 10C's. It was so hard for me to break loose of that idea (that was God's doing!)and to see that the law had "nothing to do with my salvation." (Colleen). ~vivian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10143 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen again! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 908 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hebrews 3 and 4 tells us to enter God's rest. It says to enter "today" (Hebrews 4:7 says: "again He designates a certain day, saying in David, 'Today'...") It says that the Israelites who disobeyed at the edge of the promised land and had to continue wandering in the wilderness for forty years didn't enter God's rest. Adventists will try to twist these verses and say that God's rest is the Sabbath DAY, but those Israelites most certainly DID keep the Sabbath day, but they didn't enter God's rest. I wasn't restless and empty as an Adventist. I wasn't able to maintain an assurance of salvation for long, but as long as I went by my checklist of things and kept asking God to forgive me; I figured I would be alright - I hoped!!! There was one exception though. Sabbath afternoons as an Adventist were horrible! (At least for a while - maybe for a few years before the Lord rescued me out of the SDA church.) Anyway, I would run out of "Sabbathy" things to do and then boredom would descend on me. It didn't stop there though. A terrible empty loneliness would quickly follow the boredom. It was so vast and horrible that I feared that perhaps it would stay. But then finally the hours of the Sabbath would pass and as soon as sundown occurred, I would find plenty of things to do again and the loneliness would evaporate - that is, for another week. It was weird and alarming. I would try to think of enough things ahead of time, to keep me occupied during the Sabbath hours to stave off that loneliness. I had no clue that the day was simply a shadow of Jesus. I wonder if the Lord was trying to tell me even back then, that His rest is in Him, not a day. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 879 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise: 1 Cor 34 "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning" What is sinning then in the NC? I think it points to this: Romans8:7 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; J: Contrasted 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. J: Natural man. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. J: Reality 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. J: The if here "IS" the check list. There is a test to answer that question. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. J: Past sins? , Whose righteousness? 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. J: There is that if again. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, J: Full circle. The obligation is back on us. If negative, If Positive. Checklist begins. No matter how you reblend the words, the battle is back in our court. We have a work to do. We are accountable. 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. J: The undefineable reality. It cannot be proven, quantified, measured, verified, factualized. I cannot prove to you that I do or do not have The Spirit of God, or if simply my faith is weak and God is able to make me stand. The disconnect for me is living by The Spirit does not unlink accountability for any moral precept whatsoever and in fact expands upon them. Where is the countermanded order from God? The Jews had the very words of God. Can anyone but God countermand the Tablets? Hebrews 10:16 says that God will put His laws in our hearts, write them on our minds. He defines and He writes. I read this as referring to existing and Known laws and yes , I believe they refer to the 10C. vs 26, sin is accountable. Paul' writing throw me for a loop. I want to believe one way, and keep going full circle. Do any other teachings exist that teach releasing the 10C? Only Paul seemed to have this context. Apostles override a commandment? I know it is said that SDA have trouble with Paul. The trouble is when we use Paul to release obligation to the 10C or all law for that matter. I am stuck between these two views and I cannot figure it out enough to get a conviction either way. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 481 Registered: 7-2004 |
Now the donkey might do one of two things. Either he will follow the man; or he will sit down, dig in his front hoofs, hee-aaaww and whine, and go nowhere. I'm sorry Jim, I just couldn't resist. Think about it. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 913 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I'm no expert. I'm new at this too. The difference though, between a Christian and someone "keeping" the law in order to "be a Christian"; is the Holy Spirit. You quoted it yourself over and over again about how the Holy Spirit is the One Who does everything and how having Him is the difference between life and death. Ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you, Jim. Here's a link to "How Can I Be Saved?" on "Berean Christian Ministries" which is an outreach to Mormons, but it's appropriate to everyone. It's: http://www.bcmmin.org/salpray.html Here's another link to "How can I become a child of God?" on got questions.org. It's: http://www.gotquestions.org/child-of-God.html Also the "law" in the old covenant is not the same as the "law" in the new covenant. Even the 10c of the old covenant started 430 years AFTER Abraham. See Galatians 3:17-19 "...that the law which was f our hundred and thirty years later..." and see Deuteronomy 5:2,3 as Moses is about to repeat the 10c to Israel. "The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us..." In the new covenant (which means "new testament"), the law was changed: Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." Also see Hebrews 7:18 "For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness" | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 482 Registered: 7-2004 |
I feel like we have said the same things over and over, and you seem to ignore some of it, especially about the law referring to the 10cc's. I'm sorry you can't get a conviction either way. That is a hard place to be in. I was just referring to the other analogy of the donkey not wanting to receive the free gift of the man saving him. But, if you are unable to find peace, then prayer is the only way you can get there, as Asurprise suggested. I really think that there is a simplicity in the gospel and we make it difficult because it really does seem like it's "too good to be true". I will pray for you to find peace in this. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 880 Registered: 5-2007 |
And we wonder why there are so many agnostics. For something so vital, the best one can do is to attempt to bring together all the points of view and interpretations between the faiths and try to make sense of them. I have no desire to talk doubt or lack of faith in any aspect. The consternation is simply I do not know what path to take because I am not able to let go of the 10C as a reflection of where God wants us to mirror by the power of His Grace and His Spirit. The model that I see here teaches that we set aside the OT law completely. I do not see where God has commanded that in verity. I see where the priesthood system, sacrificial system was ended. But the commandments of God, His Law, I do not see that order given. I do not ignore anything that is offered here and I raedily admitt my capacity to hold in tension multiple points at the same time is limited. (perhaps I am wasting everyones time). The problem is not being a Donkey, a Mule, stubborn, faithless, or doubting. It is the confusing scriptures. There is not enough information to answer the questions. Most of scripture is part view and much of it is abstract. That requires the believer to attempt to fill in the gaps, the details, the intentions of the authors. Minds far greater than my own cannot figure this out either. So then, when this happens, I go from common sense blended with intuition. I pray, I ask God for understanding and conviction. I have lived for some years now with my shields down when it comes to teaching sources on scripture. Because, I wanted to knwo for certain that my faith could stand the test of interrogation. Could I defend my faith. What has happened is that I am pulled in so many directions I am fragmented. Yet , to simply pick a theory and go with it does not prove faithfullness either. Though, I do hope that someday, by the "unmerrited Grace of God" I will be given a path of conviction and be enabled to walk in it. Because I realize, knowing a truth is only the beggining. Walking in it is requires all the strength God gives us. I can look at my lot in two ways, I am already lost, God has rejected me, I am not chosen, I am kept in spiritual darkness or confusion. Or, I am learning from this experience for a reason, there is a purpose and someday, it will make sense. My path may not be the same as yours. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2008 |
Cast off the Bond Woman, that seems to be what the instructions say to do. That which had glory no longer has any glory, and is now ready to fade away. Let it fade away, it is leaving, let it leave. The misstress is leaving, and if you follow her, the free woman can't go with you. The Freewoman can only wait heartbroken for you to return.Look at all the Freewoman puts up with, and still loves us.Cast your eyes in the right direction, the relationship can only get better. Chris | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 914 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, God is the answer to all your questioning. Just the fact that you are desperately questioning, tells me that God has NOT rejected you! Again, pray that the Lord reveal Himself and show you truth. Surrender yourself and repent to Him and accept His free gift. There IS something that I'm concerned about. If the devil can get legal ground in someone's life, he WILL take that ground. The reason I bring this up is that awhile ago on a thread, you mentioned that someone close to you was involved in the occult - not deeply, but playing around with horoscopes, tarot cards - if I remember right - etc. (For the devil's purposes, it doesn't matter if someone gets involved deeply or superficially, though.) I'm thinking that if that person was in your house, that might be an area where the devil has legal ground. Let me give an example. I read about someone who was a Christian, who was driving along a road. Over to one side she saw a UFO. Seriously! The Holy Spirit told her to not look and keep driving, but she was curious and looked. It had lights going around it's edge. After that, whenever she tried to read the Bible, she couldn't. Wherever she looked on the Bible page, she could only see those lights. (Another Christian prayed and in the name of Jesus and by His blood, closed that opening. Then she was free of that demonic harassment.) Jim, you need to repent of ANY possible things that could be legal ground for the devil, and pray that any openings be closed by Jesus' blood. Legal ground could be reading a false prophet like Ellen White, watching/reading movies/books about witchcraft, (I think Harry Potter might fall into this category) and even something evil that happened TO you; even if you had a grandfather who was a mason and took those oaths. Satan is not a gentleman, but God is merciful and loving and He WILL free you if you ask Him! | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 221 Registered: 8-2005  |
“It is the whole revelation of Old Testament redemptive history that is transcended in Jesus Christ. It is of great interest to us to see how a certain promise, threat or law is transcended, though that is often beyond us. It is the Old Testament as a unit – the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17) – that is fulfilled in Christ. The point to remember is this: there is no reason to make the Decalogue an exception.” – Tom Wells In Christ, Brian (Message edited by Brian3 on July 19, 2009) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 881 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, That person told me about a year ago that they had stopped dabbling. That person is not in my home. I doubt it was anything more than foolish nonsense, though dangerous. Since that time I had prayed to cleanse my home of any possible contamination as such if that were the unknown possibility. That said, I estimate the battles I deal with are fairly average and common to man. I have a prayer life and indeed confess my sins. I grasp that you may be trying to address that there may be another possibility in my life as to what the difficulty is. I was Catholic as a child till 18, then became SDA till about 51 when I stopped attending. That was three years or so ago. Legalism was the dissonnance factor. Repeated cycles of works, checklists and exhaustion for decades. I have always looked at Pauls teachings and have never been able to quantify the parameters well enough to gain complete release from the obligations of the law. Somedays I think I get it, but the moment I start comparing , confusion sets in. "What ever is not of conviction is sin" has become a tripping point for me. Because it haunts me that I do not observe Sabbath. It makes no sense to me that God would end a law that Christ had to die for. Maybe if I read it a couple hundred more times, would it make a difference then? Ultimately, I am leaning upon God to guide me through this maze. On a personal note. These past couple years has seen Separation and Divorce from a 30 year marriage, loss of my church, empty home, and continued trials I live with daily. I am under construction. My hope is for a better day, and ongoing healing. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 483 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, I have felt badly all day long for posting that knee-jerk comment. I would have thought of it even if it had been a cute puppy dog and not a donkey. It was just the metaphor I was using from the other thread about not accepting the gift. That said, I am not saying you aren't accepting Jesus, just not accepting that we now have the freedom and rest that is offered. I also have been thinking about where you stated that Paul was the only one that seemed to have the context of releasing the 10cc's. I looked through the New Testament and read a lot of Jesus' words in John that pointed to that release. I also think Hebrews clearly explains the death of the law at calvary. I know how it is to read some texts with the old mindset. I understand how it feels. I also know how it feels to read it with a different perspective. When I used to read 1 John, I kept seeing the word "commandments" and I thought is was clearly the ten. But after reading Jesus' words about heeding His New Commandment, I can see how the whole New Testament is about accepting the sacrifice and turning over a new leaf and following the new way. I am truly sorry for my comment, and I would never want to be the cause of anyone wanting to turn agnostic. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jim "I estimate the battles I deal with are fairly average and common to man." I am sure that is true. But those battles sure seem personal when it is us going through them. :-/ Jim "What ever is not of conviction is sin" has become a tripping point for me. Because it haunts me that I do not observe Sabbath. " Jim, it bothered me too. Then I listened to Mark Martins 3 part series on "The Gospel and the Covenants" and he goes through the Bible and explains it so well that I felt this sense "Why didn't I see that before? " I now know it was because the SDA veil was still over my eyes. I couldnt (and probably in honesty did not want to) let go of the Sabbath. It was like I would have to admit that just about everything I had learned and believed for the past 40 years was wrong. That was a hard thing to admit to myself.. but now that I am beginning to see more clearly I have decided to just take it a day at a time, stay in communication with Jesus through prayer and BIBLE study and ask for the Holy Spirit to show me truth. I still get tripped up on some things that I had thought were Biblical, and finding out that a lot of those things were not Biblical at all, just taught to me through Ellens Whites interpretation of them. I do not think there is anything wrong with going to church on Sabbath,, but it is wrong if the church being attended makes the day we worship on a Salvation issue. I feel it would be just as wrong for a church to say it is a matter of your Salvation to worship on Sunday. Jim "It makes no sense to me that God would end a law that Christ had to die for." But Jim, Christ did not die FOR the LAW. He died for US. For YOU and for Me. He kept the law because he was born of a woman who was under the law so that he could redeem us FROM the law. Jim "Ultimately, I am leaning upon God to guide me through this maze. " That is what we all must do. Lean upon God and ask him to take us step by step and show us the way to HIS truth. We are ALL "under construction". Would make a good T shirt... "Under Construction, God isn't finished with me yet":-) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 915 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim, you quoted a bunch of verses earlier that say that only those who have the Holy Spirit are God's children. Ask God to give you the Holy Spirit. Here's a verse with a promise for the Holy Spirit... "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:28 Are you still thinking that your salvation is up to your "keeping" the law? Or as SDAs tend to think... "partly" up to you? I think EGW said that the person themselves pushes the sin out of their lives with Jesus' strength. You're not reading EGW, are you? Ellen White said that Jesus' blood dirtied the Heavenly Sanctuary, when actually Jesus' blood cleanses from ALL sin. Hebrews 10:1 says that "the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect." Hebrews 10:14 says "For by one offering He [Jesus] has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Jim, when you accept Jesus, you are righteous, perfect, right that instant in God's eyes because you then have Jesus' righteousness. You can't get any more righteous than that! And you certainly can't get righteous by keeping the law! And you can't get unrighteous by breaking the law! Because Jesus paid the price for ALL sin. The law has nothing to do with salvation. It merely shows how holy God is and how unholy we are. None of the false churches have the Holy Spirit, so they add legalism to make their members look good on the outside. Real Christians have the Holy Spirit on the inside of them. That's why real Christians ACT like Christians. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10152 Registered: 12-2003 |
Skeeter is right--Jesus did not die for the law. He died to save us from the condemnation of the law: from sin and death. God's purpose has never been to save the law. His purpose has been to save us. He Himself IS the SOURCE of all law. He didn't have to die to save Himself! We, not the law, are the objects of God's love. We are co-heirs with Christ, not the law. The law was never a standard for righteousness. It was always for the purpose of revealing our depravity. Jesus delivered LIFE to us--His death paid the price of our sin. His resurrection saves us. We are free in Him! He destroyed in His flesh the law of commandments/ordinances (Eph 2:14). We are now living by the Spirit (see Rom 8). Jesus did not die to uphold the law! He died because He ordained thsi sacrifice from all eternity. The 10 C's flowed out of God's eternal commitment to save us by means of the cross. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 882 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you all for speaking with me. Thank you for your patience. Bb, we're good.  I am absorbing these matters as best I can. Jim |
