| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 472 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hi all, I tried to search the archives for a threat on wine vs. juice, but I couldn't find it. If there is one, could some one direct me to it? If there isn't one, here is the question asked me by a SDA: If the wine symbolizes Christ's blood, and the wine has yeast (leaven), wouldn't that corrupt the wine as a symbol of Christ's pure blood? Why would the bread have to be unleavened but the wine wouldn't? Didn't the Israelites have to clean their houses of leaven for an entire week? How could they have wine in their houses? Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2149 Registered: 8-2004  |
The only grape juice that DOESN'T have yeast is properly aged wine. Wine Yeast grows on Grapes and begins its work within moments of the time the grapes are crushed, and then goes away once the juice has fully become wine.  I think the better question would be how could they have grape juice in their houses? And more than that, if they had fresh grape juice, where were the ripe grapes to make it with at that time of the year anyway? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 535 Registered: 8-2008 |
First, the yeast in wine is killed off by its own process of fermentation. It reaches a level where it creates so much ethanol from sugar, that the ethanol kills the yeast. That is why it is pretty much impossible to get alcohol content in wine about 14%-ish using natural fermentation. Wines with higher alcohol content---port, sherry, marsala, etc--are called "fortified wines" because the vintner adds a distilled alcohol to the wine during fermentation. This kills the yeast early. Consequently, it keeps the yeast from converting more of the sugar to alcohol, and thus makes the wine sweeter. The point is, by the time it got to the table, it would not have any yeast in it. When Jesus discusses the new wine of the New Covenant, He says it must be put in new wineskins, or else it would cause the old wineskins to burst. This is a direct reference to the fermentation process, where carbon dioxide is a by-product of the fermentation process. The supple, elastic leather of a new wineskin could stretch to fit this bubbling fermentation, but a hard rigid old wineskin could not. Consequently, the new wine of the new covenant is a wine said to have yeast in it. The idea that yeast always means sin is not found in the Bible. Rather, in giving the command to eat unleavened bread, the Scripture reads, "The people baked the dough they had brought out of Egypt into unleavened loaves, since it had no yeast; for when they had been driven out of Egypt they could not delay and had not prepared any provisions for themselves" (Ex 12:39). And also, "Unleavened bread is to be eaten for those seven days. Nothing leavened may be found among you, and no yeast may be found among you in all your territory. On that day explain to your son, 'This is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt'" (Ex 13:7-8) Moreover, when you search through the Torah's discussion of yeast as it relates to Passover, the issue isn't yeast itself but yeast in leavened versus unleavened bread. The point isn't that yeast symbolizes sin, but that the lack of yeast symbolized the speed with which God delivered His Israelites from bondage, so that they did not even have time to wait for their bread to rise. You can make a good unleavened bread in about 25 minutes, including preparation and baking (I have a recipe that uses a lot of honey that I make sometimes for a snack). But a leavened bread requires a lot more time, because you have to allow the yeast to work through the dough and release carbon dioxide (the carbon dioxide makes the bread rise). In fact, the Israelites were not permitted to offer yeast-laden food as a fire offering, but they were permitted to offer it as a firstfruits offering (Lev. 2:11). In fact, they were required to offer a bread leavened with yeast for firstfruits. This would not make sense if yeast = sin. They wouldn't have been able to offer it at all. Moreover, if Jesus is our firstfruits, then yeast could not symbolize sin. The next time we find yeast mentioned AT ALL in the Bible, outside of the Torah, is when Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like yeast" (Matt. 13:33, also see Lk. 13:21). In contrast, the doctrine of the Pharisees is like their own version of yeast (Matt. 16:11, 12). In the writings of Paul, we find a reference to yeast representing malice and evil in 1 Cor. 5, whereas the Christian is to live by the unleavened bread of "sincerity and truth." But in this, Paul interprets the yeast in terms of boasting: Yeast puffs up a piece of bread, just like boasting is puffing yourself up. The point is, the meaning of yeast is determined by the context. There is no universal interpretation in the Bible that yeast always equals sin. Jesus, by rising from the dead, became the firstfruits of the resurrection. In that context, I surmise that the reason Israelite offerings for firstfruits included yeast was to symbolize Jesus rising from the grave, and His resurrection life in us. In contrast, Paul uses the metaphor of yeast to deal with boasting, whereby a person puffs himself up. The issue, in all of it, is not the yeast itself but the symbolism, within a given context, of a bread rising. Ergo, the symbolism does not extend to wine. Jews drink fermented wine during Passover, and have from time immemorial. The Passover regulations say to get yeast out of your house a week before Passover, and only to eat unleavened bread. It says nothing about fermented wine, which would have finished the fermentation process more the a week before Passover anyway. In fact, the Hebrew word for wine--yayin--in the OT basically comes from the verb "to effervesce," symbolizing the fermentation process by which the yeast in the wine emits carbon dioxide. As SDAs, we were taught that X always symbolizes Y in the Bible. Problem is, the Bible was written by Jews who like to compare and contrast metaphors, and often would use the same thing, in different contexts, to symbolize very different ideas. Thus, in the OT, fermented wine is used both to symbolize God's judgment (for instance Psalm 60:3, 75:8) and God's blessings (Psalm 104:15, Isa. 25:6). The point is that context determines what the metaphor means. There is no universal rule. God is not concerned with yeast. It is the underlying truth presented in a given passage that God is concerned with. In fact, Isa. 25:6 invokes symbolism of the New Earth, saying God will give us a feast with "finely aged wine." Revelation 21:4 uses the text of Isa. 25:8, two verses later, to describe Heaven/the New Earth. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1553 Registered: 6-2006  |
Wow - thanks Mary and Brent. I learned something new today! Leigh Anne | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 638 Registered: 7-2008  |
Why drink wine when you can drink Rootbeer?? Rootbeer....an American tradition. ...Animal | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2007 |
I would very much like the unleaven bread/honey recipe..please. Surfy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 473 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Mary and Brent, Brent, that's a very good explanation. Do you have any references that you can give me? Encyclopedias, or magazines, whatever that I could use to verify the information? I've never heard of that before. It's not that I don't trust you, but if I mention this to any SDA they are going to ask me for proof. I would also like a copy of the recipe for the bread if you are willing. Thanks, Hec | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2007  |
Thanks Brent that was well put together and said. That one is going in my study notes. Paul | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 475 Registered: 3-2009 |
Oh, sorry Brent, I didn't ask permission, but it already went into my study notes. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2965 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, Here is a quote from a winemaker's website:
You might also want to check out the following two threads on CARM, where "Mr. Happy" has discussed this issue in detail (and he might have some additional reference sources for you): http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=125882&page=2 http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=133060&page=4 Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 476 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Jeremy. Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 477 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hey Animal, Can we use root beer for communion? Actually, I did hear a pastor said that we could use any bread and any liquid for communion. What's the take on that? That wasn't a SDA pastor. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1554 Registered: 6-2006 |
I have a friend who is a Navy Chaplain and served in Fallujah, Iraq twice. He served up Diet Coke w/ communion. Their church was a bombed out old building and they had to worship in their flak jackets... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 998 Registered: 7-2007 |
Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable if I went to communion and they had soda pop and crackers. Jesus was referring to Passover when He said "as often as you do this." I'm told He was referring to the third cup of wine - the cup of redemption and the specific piece of unleavened bread called the afikomen. The afikomen was the part broken off from the middle piece of bread and hidden (of the three pieces of bread in the echad. "Echad" means unity - three in one.) "Afikomen" means "I came" in Greek. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 540 Registered: 8-2008 |
Wikipedia entry on Afikoman. Interestingly, it was the "dessert" portion of the Passover. After the bitter herbs of the Old Covenant, Jesus is our dessert. Was the soda fermented? ;-) (Message edited by bskillet on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 571 Registered: 11-2007 |
Or would substituting Cheese Doodles and root beer, for communion, be like offering a "strange incense" to the Lord? Surfy | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 639 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hec...I was just joking...sigh Animal must be losing his touch. Guess I need to work on my delivery ..>Animal | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1150 Registered: 11-2007  |
From what I remember, modern Jewish Passovers use only wine with natural fermentation and not with yeast added from somewhere else. Even the wine has to be approved as "Kosher for Passover" which is a step higher than just regular old "Kosher". There is a Psalm of David.. (104) which is one of the most beautiful passages I have ever read, praising God for His awesome creation - and how He sustains it - every last detail. In it David thanks God for wine which "gladdens" the heart of man. It has this effect on a physical level (when not abused) and when used as a symbol of the blood of Christ - and our reconciliation to God - what even more gladness!! It's so amazing how Adventism took the gladness out of the cup and of life. Not saying everyone should partake of the fermented fruit of the vine.. but that it's not a sin is a relief to know!! Sondra | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 575 Registered: 11-2007 |
STILL WAITING ON THE UNLEAVEN BREAD/HONEY RECIPE. Please. Don't make me beg. Surfy | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 544 Registered: 8-2008 |
The recipe is more in my head than on a card, but here is the general outline. I encourage you to play with your white/wheat flour and water/oil ratios until you get the taste and texture you like best. 2/3rds-ish cup water 1/3rds-ish cup vegetable oil 1 cup whole wheat flour 1 cup white flour 1/4th cup honey Salt to taste (1/2 tsp is usually good). Yes, you read that right: 1/4th cup of honey. Honey is a great sweetener. This bread is somewhere between normal bread and a donut. Mix all this junk together till its nice and doughy. Pre-heat your oven to 350 (that's farenheit for our Canadian friends). Spread it out fairly thin on a cookie sheet. Thickness is also personal preference. I make mine a lot thicker than communion wafers because it is a snack. Cook for, oh, 10-12 minutes. Really doesn't matter if you undercook it, since it is is just flour based with no eggs or anything. (Message edited by bskillet on August 26, 2009) |
