| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 601 Registered: 11-2007 |
This is a statement written by an adventist over on the other website we are familiar with: "Jesus attained a perfect, sinless state". There are just too many things wrong with that statement to even know where to begin. Sometimes, I wonder why we even bother. Don't they ever read their Bible? Surfy | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1321 Registered: 11-2007  |
good grief!! Which Jesus would that be then? | ||
| Sparrow Registered user Username: Sparrow Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2008  |
That would be "another Jesus". | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1593 Registered: 6-2006  |
Perhaps it was the OTHER Jesus known as "Chuie". | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 631 Registered: 8-2008 |
Chewie was a good guy, for a wookie. But perfect and sinless... That's a bit of a stretch. | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 602 Registered: 11-2007 |
I need to ask him exactly when did Jesus acheive that perfect, sinless state? When He was 12 years old? When He was baptized? After He was resurrected? I'm going to put my waders on and bring lots of disinfectant and go back in for some more. If I'm not back this time tomorrow, someone come looking for me. Surfy | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 464 Registered: 2-2003  |
Is that what SDAs actually believe, or did someone just express themselves badly? Because it is, well, things just get worse! Adrian | ||
| Lrcrabtree Registered user Username: Lrcrabtree Post Number: 101 Registered: 1-2007  |
Doc, I'm not positive about the doctrinal teachings and belief. I'm sure someone here will clear this up for us. It would be interesting to see, but I recall that EGW mades statements similar to that. I do recall being taught that Jesus was our example. That as he lived a sinless life, it is possible for me to also. Larry | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 633 Registered: 8-2008 |
Surfy, I just read a bit of the discussion over on CARM. The problem to me is pretty clear: SDAs do not believe we have a spirit, so in their mind the sinful nature is passed by physical DNA. In other words, the sinful nature is just having bad physical genes. So the thinking goes that since Jesus had human DNA (allegedly from Mary), He must have had a sinful nature. They can't understand that the sinful nature was a fallen and dead spirit that is hostile to God (Col. 1:21). They don't realize that the spiritual transcends the physical, so that the broken spirit isn't passed along through physical DNA. Even if Jesus had Mary's physical DNA, it would not mean He inherited her spiritual nature of a broken and hostile spirit towards God. In fact, it would be impossible for Him to have such a spirit, since He is God. So what you're seeing is Adventism's denial of the fact of the human spirit, and Adventism's denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 465 Registered: 2-2003 |
I get the thing about the spirit, but what this statement seemed to say to me, that if Jesus "attained a perfect, sinless state" that would indicate that he was not always sinless, he just got there in the end. That is what that phrase says to me, and if that is SDA teaching, then it is worse than I ever thought it was. What about our salvation then, if Jesus was not always 100 % sinless throughout his life. That is what I meant. Anyone? Adrian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1887 Registered: 5-2007  |
Yes...therefore, Since Jesus is the all powerfull and all knowing God, always existed, is the Creator and never sinned, it is heresy to suggest that: He "attained" a quality that he always had and could never have lost. Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 731 Registered: 3-2009 |
Well, well, In all my tons of years in the SDA organization, I have never heard that "Jesus attained perfection." That He is our example, yes. That He was perfect, yes. But that He attained perfection, no. This is not to say that some might believe that, It's just to say that I have never heard that. Hec | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2007  |
Jesus is perfection! | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 603 Registered: 11-2007 |
Doc, that was my biggest question, too, as it would indicate that at some point He was not sinless. I too am wondering if that is an adventist teaching or just the thoughts of one over zealous adventist. Surfy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10622 Registered: 12-2003  |
I have heard that statement (or a similar one) before. I have read that Jesus had to work out His own salvation, etc. etc. The bottom line is that, while Adventism does NOT have a definitive statement about the nature of Christ, traditionally most Adventists have believed that Jesus was not born "sinless". He was born with a sinful nature. The publication of Questions on Doctrine in the mid-50s "fudged" the true SDA view of this issue...and Adventist historian and retired professor from Andrews University George Knight reports, in his annotations in the republished 2004 version of Questions on Doctrine, that the men who wrote Q on D actually misrepresented the real Adventist position. Since that time, there has been disagreement within Adventism concerning whether or not Jesus was born with a sinful or a sinless nature. Some say one, others say the other. All, however, agree that "sin" is passed physically, not spiritually, and the question actually means Adventists can't decide whether or not Jesus physically inherited Mary's sinful, degraded genes. Many Adventists, such as my own in-laws, do not say Jesus was born with a "sinful" nature but with a "fallen" nature. Go figure--that's hair-splitting in my mind, and I can't tell you what the difference would be. At any rate, the ENTIRE thing is defined physically. So, a great many Adventists believe that Jesus was born with a "fallen" or "sinful" nature, and yet He "was without sin". This means that although He had a sinful nature, He managed not to sin because He was perfectly obedient and prayed enough to access the Holy Spirit's power to resist temptation. It's not hard to see how individual Adventists could understand that Jesus had to become perfect...because from an Adventist standpoint, He was not born "perfect"; He was born "sinless". Not all Adventists would say it this way, but this is the underlying understanding. Jesus had no advantage we don't have (a ubiquitous SDA teaching). Therefore, He had to perfectly keep the law as our Example. Since He had no advantage we don't have, if He resisted sin with the flaws of genetic inheritance, so can we. Perfection comes with resisting sin. And Ellen does say we must become perfect and reproduce the character of Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2008 |
Considering what I barely can grasp of the the huge magnitude of the problem of Sin... I find it utterly ridiculous and non-sensical to reduce it and simply define it in genetic or physical terms. I know before I wouldn't think this way, but now I do. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2277 Registered: 8-2004  |
A verse SDAs have used to support the idea that Jesus 'became perfect' is found in Hebrews. It reads like this:
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| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 604 Registered: 11-2007 |
This same guy just made the statement that "EGW confirms everything that is written in the Bible". Shouldn't it be the other way around? Surfy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2280 Registered: 8-2004 |
Ya think?  | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 565 Registered: 2-2006 |
Don't you think it is a bit odd to leave something as foundational as the nature of Christ up for grabs? They have 28 Fundamentals, for heaven's sake! They argue over where the commas should go! How Can They Not Take A Stand About The Nature Of Our Savior? Pegg <confused> |
