| Author | Message | ||
| Rider Registered user Username: Rider Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2009 |
At Christ's death he said “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Mark 15:34. In today's sermon the pastor quoted from DA that Christ went to his death not knowing if he would ever see his Father again. Is this a common Christian idea or is it just adventist? Why did Christ say “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Any thoughts or references? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3105 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Rider, Check out this excellent article by the late Christian apologist Bob Passantino: http://answers.org/theology/forsaken.html You can also see my webpage on this topic at: http://www.cultorchristian.com/psalm22.html As for the quote from EGW, it is heresy, as Jesus is God and is omniscient and also omnipresent. Here is the Christian understanding from a liturgy of the early Church:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 19, 2009) | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1389 Registered: 11-2007  |
I have only heard that as an SDA - part of the theology that really denigrates that Jesus was fully God. I absolutely do not believe Jesus doubted the outcome. Hebrews says.. "For the joy set before Him, He endured the cross." This is a sick teaching. Part of the reason he cried out that.. was it is the first line of Psalm 22 which predicted all that was taking place right then, testifying to who He was. It may have been the way it felt - to be made sin - to be separated. But I don't believe He ever actually was. Seems like as an sda I was taught God turned His away because of the sin being laid on the Son. I'll let someone else speak to that. Sondra | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1390 Registered: 11-2007 |
like Jeremy for instance! lol. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1614 Registered: 6-2006  |
Rider, as a life-long non-SDA, I can assure you this is NOT a common teaching among Christianity. In reading DOA, it amazes me that EGW could be so presumtuous as to state what Jesus knew or didn't know, or how he felt personally. She would literally have to be God in order to know that information. I can't think of any prophet in the Bible who was privy to God's own personal thoughts and feelings...  Leigh Anne | ||
| Rider Registered user Username: Rider Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2009 |
Jeremy, thanks for your links. They will give plenty to study. I gave up EGW years ago but still have not sorted out what is from the Bible and what is her imagination. When I heard the quote this moring I could not believe that Christ could have any fear of the outcome. Thanks guys for your imput. Rider | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 441 Registered: 1-2004  |
Nice to see a quote from the Orthodox liturgy (of St John Chrysostom) here. Most people don't hear that one every Sunday because the liturgy of preparation is done before the main part of the service happens, behind the iconostasis, and is said by the priest. I've been invited back there to observe before, though. Jeremiah | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 910 Registered: 10-2008 |
Rider, I, too, understood as an Adventist what you describe in your initial post. Jesus didn't know if His sacrifice would be acceptable, according to the teachings of Adventism. The problem with this assumption - is that Jesus was not fully God on earth. Yet, Jesus was fully God and fully human. Hard to wrap our human minds around that one - 100% human & 100% God. As 100% God (knowing all things) - Jesus would have known that His sacrifice would be acceptable.
God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself. God the Father, was not distant at the cross. We believe in ONE God in three persons. Therefore, God the Father, was at the cross; IN HIS SON reconciling the world through the person of His son. This is pretty mind boggling, because in Adventism we were taught that the trinity is three seperate persons - basically three gods. Yet the trinity is One God, in three persons. Hard to wrap our mind around it. Remember in the book of John, Jesus tells the disciples that if they have seen Him they have seen the Father? (John 14:9,7 and John 15:24) So why did Christ cry out "Father why have you forsaken me"? I think Sondra also gave a good explanation - it was to fulfill the prophesy of Ps. 22 and remember Jesus was 100% human too ... So when sin was laid on Him - He did feel the seperation from the Father - because He was also 100% human. Yet, we can't forget that He was also 100% divine. It is hard to wrap our minds around 100% divine and 100% human. Yet, scripture teaches that this was Who Jesus was while on earth. Morever, because Jesus was 100% God while on earth - He could not have sinned - which is something Adventism doesn't teach either. With this in mind - Jesus is not our example that we can perfectly emulate - because we are not 100% divine.
Jesus, was God in the flesh - paying a debt we couldn't ever pay. We are born spiritually dead and far from God, because of the sin of Adam (Rom. 5:12-18; Eph. 2:1-10). Only through Christ are we redeemed. Mind boggling indeed. Especially, during this Christmas season when our minds are turned toward Emmanuel - God with us. God in human body - paying a debt we couldn't ever pay. Keri | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3106 Registered: 10-2004 |
EGW also says in The Desire of Ages (page 790) that even after his resurrection, Jesus did not know if "God Himself" had "accepted" his sacrifice. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 19, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 10767 Registered: 12-2003  |
In addition to the excellent posts above, I just want to mention that Jesus also foretold His own resurrection before His death. He told the Jews, when they asked for a sign, that none would be given except the sign of Jonah (three days in the belly of the fish then return to his life..) Matt 12:39; Mark 16:4;Luke 11:29-30. Furthermore, Jesus told His disciples He would rise the third day:
He experienced His death as a human, but He, the Lord Jesus, knew His mission, and He knew He would accomplish it. Moreover, even if he quavered in his humanness, He had Scripture to confirm reality:
Jesus knew He would rise from death. We did not have a Jesus who could have failed or was uncertain of the outcome of His sacrifice. He IS GOD. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 911 Registered: 10-2008 |
Wow, I had never "seen" that before. I've read it before, but it hit me in a new way. Jesus, indeed, talked about His resurrection before the cross. He knew exactly what would happen, because He was God on earth. Thanks, Colleen, that is just one more confirmation of EGW disagreeing with scripture and demeaning and lessening Who Jesus was/is. Keri | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1615 Registered: 6-2006 |
Funny how Ellen White could claim she knew what Jesus was unsure of, but didn't remember the actual words of Jesus written in plain sight! Leigh Anne | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 494 Registered: 2-2003  |
There is also John 2: 19, 21: "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days... the temple he had spoken of was his body." If Jesus played a part in his own resurrection (actually, the whole Trinity was involved, as indicated by various verses), it also conflicts with the idea that he ceased to exist while he was dead - Gyula told me he was taught that, I do not know if it is general SDA teaching. How could God cease to exist anyway??!! Adrian P.S. This is also a good one to point out to JWs, as they don't believe in Jesus' physical resurrection. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2303 Registered: 8-2004  |
In the circles I was in it is taught that Jesus ceased to exist, though conflicting with that was the idea that "God did not die" - so it was considered a conundrum . There was some discussion about whether it was "just Jesus' human nature" that died, or just what happened. It was assumed that the only way He could "taste death for every man" was if death was a ceasing to exist, since infinite (in the sense of time without end) punishment was assumed to be impossible for Him to experience in three short days and nights in the tomb. Some thought the agony in the garden where He sweat drops of blood was where he experienced the penalty for sin - and that at the end of that he was able to see into the future again and to hope/trust that the sacrifice was enough. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 912 Registered: 10-2008 |
Doc, Yes, I understood it in Adventism as Jesus ceased to exist (Interesting that you should bring it up - just had a discussion on it last night) ... yet as Mary says, there did seem to be a conundrum within Adventism in regards to what actually took place. Had an interesting discussion last night with my pastor and a small group of former SDA's. Could Jesus have sinned? This was a conundrum type of discussion - though not in conflict as we might think. It was interesting to hear that in mainstream Christianity there has been this discussion, too, "Could Jesus have sinned?" The pastor's wife mentioned a huge discussion she had been a part of at another church regarding this topic (totally non-SDA related). ... Jesus could not have sinned, because He was fully God while on earth. Yet, He felt the weight of sin and temptation - because He was also fully man. The temptations He experienced by Satan - were real and intense and He experienced them as a human - but without sin. Since He was God - He could not have sinned, yet He experienced temptation as a human. The verse in Hebrews was brought up, in regards to the fact that He was tempted in all ways - yet without sin. He truly understands what it is to be tempted as a human. Bottom line .... Jesus' mission was to save us ... not to vindicate His Father's law before watching worlds (though Jesus met the justice of sin for us - which is a totally different concept), nor was Jesus' mission to be an example for us - so that we can live without sinning while on earth. Jesus paid a price/debt we could not ... This is Grace in it's fullness ... and He rose again ... which indicates His Lordship/Kingship ... Anyways, .... Keri | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2306 Registered: 8-2004 |
It has always interested me that Satan chose to tempt Jesus with making bread out of rocks. Now if I were in the wilderness and were going hungry, turning rocks into bread might be a fantasy - but would have NO bearing on what I could actually do. Jesus could have done it and chose not to. That is one strong evidence that he was God in the flesh, not just another human. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3108 Registered: 10-2004 |
Doc, Well, when they say that Jesus is "God" they actually mean "a God." So "Jesus" was able to cease to exist, and yet a different God ("the Father") continued to exist and reign over the world. Then when Jesus was "re-created" by the Father three days later, He was given power and authority to "co-rule" with the "Father." Jeremy | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 496 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jeremy, Thanks. That means they are closer to JWs than perhaps they would like to think. Mary, There is also another Mormon connection there, as they believe that Jesus suffered for our sins in Gethsamane, and the cross sort of ensured that everyone would be raised from the dead. Not really so aware of Mormon theology, but I remember Gethsemane is the really significant event. Wow, the light continues to dawn... Adrian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3109 Registered: 10-2004 |
Adrian, Yes, Mormon theology teaches that the atonement happened in Gethsemane. And EGW says that the atonement began in Gethsemane (but not culminating, of course, until the IJ and satan bearing the sins of the righteous during the Millennium). Jeremy | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 497 Registered: 2-2003 |
All of which distracts attention away from the cross. Now, who would want that to happen, I wonder? AB |
