| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6058 Registered: 9-2006  |
Adventist call the word of God The infallible inspired word of God. Then turn right around and say Paul really wasn't correct in many of his teachings because it is inspired. Trying to make sense of Adventist lingo is crazy making to the point where it just leaves me aghast at the double talk. What I am wondering is what is the formers position on this now, versus then? Is it just inspired, or is it God speaking directly to us though the human vessel? Not as if God takes a persons hand and moves it over the paper, but speaking through human vessels by his power. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 725 Registered: 7-2000 |
God speaking directly to us through the human vessels. Verbal, plenary and inerrent inspiration. This issue is the reason I left the SDA church. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11009 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with Loneviking. It is inspired and inerrant, and God gave the words. Somehow the Bible is a product of both the Holy Spirit and the writers, but God was in charge of the words. It says exactly what God meant it to say. Colleen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 348 Registered: 4-2007 |
Interesting Question. At the age of 30 I discovered that there was a God-in an Adventist church! Along with the absolute conviction that the Bible was God speaking to me, not the opinions of human writers. I do not remember if the evangelist taught this or not. The question of inspiration arises when what God says conflicts with cherished beliefs, mainly the writings of Paul, which encompasses about 30% of the NT. As an aside, Messianic Jews don’t like Paul either. Like Satan in the garden, the anti-gospel mongers attempt to introduce doubt with: ‘Did God really say…?’ Examples From my file of ‘Really awful Adventist quotes’: the scripture in rom 10 adequately demonstrates the dangers of misquotation of scripture. Deut says thet keeping the law is do-able and Paul et al says not. What right has Paul to change the plain meaning of scripture? ’Seriously, if offered the choice of either following Jesus or Paul, for sayings, writings and example to the exclusion of the other. Who would you go for?’ ‘… made a direct comparison of "the truth" of the gospel in Jesus' personal letter of Revelation to the NT Church, to what a man said. Paul offered a limited viewpoint or explanation of the gospel. I know Jesus stated the gospel correctly in Revelation, in the form of the three angel's message from chapter 14.’ ‘When we leave out the writings of Paul, a Hebrew scholar of the Hebrew scholars, "in which are some things hard to be understood", things become more simple as the gospel is concerned.’ ‘Ephesians 2 definitely does away with the law since it constitutes a barrier according to Paul. Can you put your trust in a man who never actually met Jesus except only in a vision on the road to Damascus. How does Paul compare any different with EG White or Joseph Smith, Mohammed for example?’ ‘I probably could second-guess Paul a lot, because he wasn't the best writer in the Bible’ ‘If we don't approach the Bible with the possibility that it may be wrong, then do we really have faith?’ ‘What is striking is how the NT is so self contradictory in its nature with regards to entering into life; so much for supposed 'inspiration' of the NT + plus Paul's work was supposed to have been written before the gospels according to some opinions.’ ‘Sounds to me like Paul wasn't being very "bold" with the Gospel when it came to Jews, then. By the traditional evangelical perspective, Paul was just kissing their ***, while making up for it by being "bold" to the Gentiles. What was Paul so afraid of?’ And many more, you get the picture. John | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6060 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: God speaking directly to us through the human vessels. Verbal, plenary and inerrent inspiration. In the Adventist mind, it doesn't mean what Loneviking said, in the Adventist mind, it just means inspired, taking the word inspired by itself. I am constantly having to translate Adventists words into what they really mean by them. It is like translating Morse code, a series of dits and dahs into understandable language. At first glance it sounds good when they say, 'the infallible and inspired word of God.' Sound really Christian doesn't it? But when you dig deeper, it becomes something entirely different that what Loneviking said. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2024 Registered: 5-2007  |
River, The context of making statements such as “it is not a salvation issue” is directed towards those for whom it was a salvation issue in their ‘old theology’ where everything was tied up in ‘pretty little packages’, laid out before them with the admonition that if you reject ‘the truth’ there is no chance that you will be saved. To a large measure, we are speaking to and with those who are just now growing in the knowledge and love of their Savior and Lord. Salvation is no longer about having ‘all their ducks in a row’ theologically. Salvation is centered solely on the blood of Christ; with nothing added in some form of our own works...not even correct understanding. And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them. (Mark 10:13-16 ESV) Yes, Scripture is very clear, but the knowledge you and I may have will only grow through the personal working of the Holy Spirit in each member of the Body of Christ. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6061 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well said Phil, although you got your threads mixed up a little didn't you?  I hope you didn't go to work cross eyed, you may put a pump where an electric motor goes, Haaaaa! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6062 Registered: 9-2006 |
John, Your file is more complete than mine, but I have heard about at least half of those spoken by various Adventists, I'm sure with time I will hear the rest of them. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2025 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, Yes, I am guilty of being confused at times. Sometimes I forget why I am where I am and why I am there. I write my postings in the word processor so I can run the spelling/thesaurus/grammar checker. Then I copy/paste it into the ‘correct’ thread. I was in a rush because it was getting late to get to a doctor’s appointment. Rushing never seems to work out well for me. I guess it just goes to prove my ‘works’ are only filthy rags. Speaking of being perfect, after we got out of the doctor’s office Jan said she wanted to go to Goodwill after eating lunch at Sharis. I said fine we were going there anyway but I don’t know where Goodwill is. So, I head out and she says; “Where are you going”? I say; “To pay the dental bill before taking you to Sharis”. Well, she meant Sharis in East Bremerton where Goodwill is and things went ‘down hill’ for me…again, since I was headed for Port Orchard and the wrong Sharis. Talk about not being perfect. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6064 Registered: 9-2006 |
I call that a perfect man Phil, it wouldn't be right for us to not be confused. Besides all that, what excuses could we use if we weren't this way? My wife just looks at me and says, "Figures." I can stumble around and get away with it. Keep up the good work Phil, I'm depending on you. River | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 300 Registered: 5-2009 |
John--Those quotes are absolutely sickening, esp. the Eph. 2 quote. Sure, Paul/Joseph Smith/Ellen all in the same category--what nonsense! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1207 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I was an Adventist, I was never taught by anyone that Paul was less inspired than anyone else in the Bible. If I'd heard an Adventist saying anything bad about Paul, I would have assumed he/she was a heretic against the Adventist church. Also, instead of understanding what Paul wrote about salvation being a FREE GIFT, I just figured that I didn't "understand" it correctly. I figured that I didn't "understand" Ellen White correctly either because if I would have looked at both her writings and the Bible objectively, I would have noticed that they contradicted each other. Since I couldn't believe that they contradicted each other, I came up with a belief in the middle that still didn't give any assurance of salvation. It sounds to me like those people who don't believe Paul, were able to look at both the Bible and Ellen White objectively and then STILL chose Ellen White!!! (Isn't that like choosing death over life??) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3168 Registered: 10-2004  |
No, it is choosing death over life!  Jeremy | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2008 |
I must live in a very isolated place because in all my years of being in the Adventist church I never heard anything like was quoted in John's post. Are these quotes from official SDA publications? | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2007 |
I dont know where the quotes are from,and I do not doubt they are real, but I never heard anything to give the impression we should doubt Paul or any other Bible author either. Skeeter | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 651 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think I've heard of Paul being either "confusing" or some radicals thinking he was "off". Either way, what I think is happening is that there is more information out there now, people are waking up, and the adventists are pulling out their ammo to fight the wave of people finding out the falsehoods of adventism in their search for Truth. So discrediting Paul is one of the weapons used to protect ellen (since they aren't in agreement) | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2008 |
I also don't doubt that the quotes are real. And what Bb says could very well be happening. Like a cornered animal they are fighting back with all sorts of absurd tactics. It was my continued study of Paul's writings that brought me out of adventism. One can only hope that others within adventism will discern the truth that you can't pick and choose what part of Scripture is inspired and what isn't. All scripture is inspired! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2029 Registered: 5-2007 |
John, I would love to use your list of quotes. To be of use it would be good to include references. That is, who said what and in what context, etc. If I were to use one of the quotes, it would be good to defend whatever point I might be making when using these outrages statements. Fearless Phil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 350 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Phil, They all came from the old CARM SDA forum, I have the authors and the links (which are useless now). I'd be glad to e-mail my list to you if you think it would be of any use. John (Message edited by JONVIL on March 07, 2010) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2031 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well yes, If you don't want to post them here, how about emailing them to me? Fearless Phil | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 351 Registered: 4-2007 |
It's 9 pages long, I need an address | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2033 Registered: 5-2007 |
John, I posted my email address down in the Member Section, thread titled "John". Fearless Phil |
