| Author | Message | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-1999 |
Hi, Everyone! I have a question about this verse, this chapter, the book of Ezekiel. The verse: Ezekiel 18:24 NIV "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. I'm a little confused by this text and how it co-exist with righteousness by faith because of the phrase "none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered". I have an Adventist friend who of course is using this as a proof text that salvation is based, in part, on our works. The background of the chapter involves a proverb "The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge?" God is setting Israel straight that every man's soul is His and that every man is accountable for their own actions and no one is doomed or saved because of their sins or the righteousness of their father (3rd/4th generation curse). I feel that I'm getting sidetracked (off on several different sub searches caused by this one verse). I want to have the context of the verse well defined but I'm afraid in the process I'm going to derail my friend. Does anyone have some insight they can share? Many thanks! Lori | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6147 Registered: 9-2006  |
Your church cannot save you , your family cannot save you, you must repent and accept Gods message yourself, he has a message of repentance and redemption for all. we cannot blame our families, our leaders or our nation for choices we have made, nor can we rely on someone Else's righteousness to save us. But even after we are saved we can't put the blame on others for our weaknesses, our sins, our faults. We have a clear advocate with the father, 1 john 2:1-2. The passage in Ezekiel is not a signal to return to the old covenant. Israel has accused God of not being fair, in an Adventist own self righteousness he might accuse God of not being fair. Your friend is proof texting, and going under the wrong principle as witnessed in 1 john 2:2. Only Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, not us. Maybe it would be a good time to lead the person to text where it shows that our salvation is in Christ and him alone. I would just use his/her proof texting as a springboard to the new testament. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11070 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, River. The Ezekiel passage is writing in words that make sense in the old covenant. In reality, if a person who appears to be a Christian suddenly goes off the proverbial deep end and lives a life of sin, it's probable that person was never really born again. God holds us when we are born from above, and He sustains us and and keeps us in Him. Ezekiel's passage is stating the obvious; a person living wickedly cannot be operating in God's power. In Ezekiel's day, the person abandoning adherence to the Mosaic covenant was breaking Israel's terms of agreement with God. They came under judgment, by the terms of the covenant itself. In the new covenant, God establishes the terms of the covenant: a person is either in Christ and does not enter judgment because he has believed in Him, or he is not born again in Christ and is judged already because of his natural condition of depravity (John 3:18). Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-1999 |
One of the things I was hoping you could help me with is in proving this is physical death not spiritual death. I don't see it that the righteous man is losing his salvation. Am I wrong? The passage identifies the man as a righteous man does it not? | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-1999 |
Or,if I'm seeing this the wrong way, how do you know the man was only a "claimer of righteousness" and not a true believer? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 691 Registered: 8-2008 |
The key part is "because of the sins he has committed, he will die." Ezekiel was written before the Cross. In the New Covenant, Jesus already died for our sins, taken upon Himself the death that was ours because of sin. In Him, we have already died and been raised by the Spirit to be alive to God. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6149 Registered: 9-2006 |
Lori, I had the idea from your original post that you wanted to stick this all together for the sake of your friend. You said you wanted to avoid derailing the friend. The problem is your friend is already derailed. The veil is in place. Your coming at it from this side of the cross, and your friend is coming at it from the other side of the cross. The problem is the veil. If instead of derailing her/him they have derailed you, what then? Who derailed who here? River | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-1999 |
First of all, I appreciate your comments. I have found the answer I was looking for. It is further defined in Ezekial 33:13, "If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done." Did you get that? "he trusts in his (his own) righteousness". There is the heart of the matter!!! God is condemning the self-righteous. Anyone who trusts "in his own righteousness" was never saved to begin with. Carefully notice that the Bible says a man's righteousness won't be remembered only if he trusts in HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is why Romans 10:3 warns people about trying to establish their OWN righteousness. "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness." In contrast, a man who trusts in the Lord for his salvation, even if he becomes backslidden--his good works will NOT be forgotten. Proof of this is in Hebrews 11:32 which lists king David as a great man of faith. The Bible teaches that once a lost sinner is saved, they're always saved ... "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). The moment a person trusts Christ as Savior, that person is SEALED with the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit, God Almighty, comes to live inside that believer forever). Just as your physical birth is irreversible...so it is with your "new creature"(spiritual birth). It can not be erased. 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." To claim that a believer can lose salvation is to say that one who is a new creature (i.e., born again) in Christ can become an old creature again. There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures. The whole matter is put to rest by Romans 4:5 ... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted as righteousness. The question is: Are you trusting fully in God for salvation? OR Are you trusting in your own self-righteousness? (Trusting in your own righteousness, your own law keeping, your own goodness whether in whole or in part it does not matter---if you think any of your "saving" is based on your own righteousness you are not trusting in the righteousness of God and you will not be saved.) Based on Ezekiel 18:24 (kept in context) and these other Scriptures, one can confidently conclude......if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then you are indeed trusting in your own righteousness. Thanks again! | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-1999 |
River, Unfortunately, I did derail. Thanks for noticing! LOL Thinking about it in the middle of the night, some of the most ridiculous things went through my mind. I think I'm back on track now!!! Lori (Message edited by Lori on March 22, 2010) | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 212 Registered: 2-2008 |
Lori, This verse seems to be stating the terms of the old covenant. This is why 2 Corinthians 3:7 calls the ten commandments a ministry of death, because no one except Jesus has lived, or will live perfectly from birth to death. Paul states in Galatians 3: 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. Actually if one were to somehow become perfect from this moment on, and never sin again that would not cover the penalties for past sins. So it kind of goes both ways, there is no prepaid community service, or time spent, that enables previous good deeds to pay for future sins. Also future good deeds do not pay for past sins. I think Adventists fail to see this, and think that if they can become perfect from now on, that it will somehow cover their past treachery. They say that Jesus covered their past treachery, but they cover their future treachery by not being treacherous anymore, making" today",,,,," tomorrows perfect past". The only problem is the ever present NOW, TODAY that keeps pestering us so much. Islam fails to see this also, thinking that doing more good than evil in ones life makes one worthy of eternal life, but this is not the terms of the new covenant written with the blood of Jesus. The old covenant no longer exists, it is obsolete, the terms have been met by Jesus, the price has been paid, we have all been bought for a price, and when it is said that it is ready to fade away, it is referring to it fading away in our minds, and our self imposed adherence to a contract written with a different people, in a different time, for a specific purpose. Imagine trying to pay your property tax bill from fourteen years ago, even though you paid it on time fourteen years ago, and you don't even own the property any more. Pretty ridiculous huh! Or thinking that you can still have an opportunity to pitch against Babe Ruth and strike him out, just can't happen. So why would anyone want to go and try and fulfill the covenant made with Israel when they were taken out of Egypt. The old covenant occurred for an example , showing the futility of trying to establish ones own righteousness . People still try and establish their own righteousness, not just in the religious ways, but by lifestyles as well. This approach tries to make one equal with God, by failing to recognize the absolute righteousness of God. God is amazing, we can't even compare. In understanding the Bible, it is important to realize, WHO is speaking, and WHO is being spoken to, and WHEN they are being spoken to, about WHAT. Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, built on better promises. Thank God, Chris | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-1999 |
Thanks Chris, I appreciate you post. I understand the Old Covenant, etc...but I know that my friend does not. My attempt was to keep it all faith based without going into several different doctrines...trying to keep it simple...even though my mind was going in several different directions of doctrinal concepts which become too involved and distract from the simple message of the Gospel. That was why I was having trouble...my mind kept going off on a tangent when I needed to stick with the simple message. Faith alone, in Christ alone and the security we have in Christ because of that. I like your example of the property tax. Thanks! Lori |
