| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3209
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 6:21 pm: |     |
Hec,
The death penalty was instituted (by God) before, and apart from, the Old Covenant:
quote:"Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6'Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man." (Genesis 9:5-6 NASB.)
Notice that the reason given is not "covenantal" at all, but rather because man was made in the image of God.
Additionally, the death penalty is also reiterated in the New Covenant:
quote:"Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake." (Romans 13:1-5 NASB.)
Another point, however, is that the government's responsibility to perform capital punishment has nothing to do with a covenant. Governments (besides Israel in OC times) are not part of the covenants with God. But the Bible makes it clear, in the above passages, that God expects the government to perform capital punishment.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on April 11, 2010) |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 966
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 6:35 pm: | |
I guess that based on that Gen. quote, SDAs are in very good shape because they should not eat meat therefore not spilling the blood of the beasts which will be required.
And I cannot see any mention of death penalty in the Rom. quote.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3210
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 7:13 pm: | |
Hec,
It's not saying not to kill a beast. It's saying that a beast which kills a man should die. In fact, two verses before that is where God told man to kill and eat all animals.
The Romans 13 passage says: "But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."
That is a clear reference to the death penalty.
Jeremy |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 967
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 7:31 pm: | |
It does not bear the sword for nothing does not mean use the sword to kill when someone does what is evil. It does not refer only to murder but to evil in general. Or are we going to apply the death penalty for all crimes? I still don't see the death penalty in Rom. The sword is a symbol of authority, not a symbol of death penalty.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3211
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 7:56 pm: | |
Hec,
What was the sword used for? Did they bear it for nothing? Or did they use it to "avenge"?
Jeremy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 8:00 pm: | |
I guess the best way to find out would be to look into whether or not the death penalty was ever carried out by the governmental authorities that Paul knew of in his time. |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2072
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 8:29 pm: | |
Well,
Paul certainly knew about the Roman government and it was Rome who executed him.
Fearless Phil |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 286
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 9:11 pm: | |
Along those same lines, Phil, if you recall Paul in the book of Acts (25:11) made this appeal for his life: "If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar." Paul didn't take exception with capital punishment, even for himself. Of course His point was that he wasn't guilty, not that capital punishment was wrong.
There was no abrogation of capital punishment in the New Testament. And it was to be carried out against criminals receiving punishment that fit their crimes. What has an innocent baby done deserving of murder?
These aren't two sides of the same coin if we're trying to draw some sort of equivalence between them.
(Message edited by Heretic on April 11, 2010)
(Message edited by Heretic on April 11, 2010) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3212
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:13 pm: | |
Well said, Asurprise, Phil, and Heretic.
Also, Paul was writing to the church in Rome, when he wrote about the government bearing the sword. And as pointed out above, Rome did indeed use the death penalty.
Jeremy |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 968
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 1:13 pm: | |
Rome also had slaves.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3213
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 3:14 pm: | |
That's completely irrelevant. Paul did not say that slavery was a ministry of God. He did say that capital punishment was.
Jeremy |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 969
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 5:09 pm: | |
I have not seen where Paul says that capital punishment is a ministry of God yet.
Hec |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2010 - 3:59 pm: | |
We can reasonably argue that if one is not fit to live, he or she is certainly not fit to die (i.e., Cain). Many murderers prefer death instead of lifetime imprisonment. This is akin to being annihilated which is not the ultimate punishment but rather the end of punishment. Moreover, many people have wrongly been condemned to death in a non-theocratic society.
Dennis Fischer |
