| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11481
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 9:06 pm: |     |
Cloudwatcher, I've thought about that, too. This process of seeing reality and knowing what's wrong with Adventism is not new! Who knew?!
There's been a steady stream of people leaving for reasons of doctrine and integrity ever since the beginning. We were SOO sheltered...
Colleen |
Sabbatismos
Registered user
Username: Sabbatismos
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 7:28 am: | |
We have Norman Douty's biography of Canright as well as "I Was Canright's Secretary" by Carrie Johnson. The latter is really sickening! I started it a couple of years ago and haven't been able to finish it yet.
Yesterday I was talking with an SDA friend who is in the process of studying out. She'd tried to resign her SDA membership a couple of months ago, but the pastor of her church instead came to visit her and didn't process her request. He brought along an elderly secretary from another SDA Church in the area who told my friend that she'd gone to school with Dale Ratzlaff and since leaving Adventism his life had totally fallen apart and he was doing terribly! She asked me if I knew anything about him, if I'd seen him recently, etc. I assured her that none of that was true and Dale was doing great. I was shocked (although why should I be??) that these tactics are STILL being used in Adventism. If they can't answer the critics, they just smear them! I guess that Dale can be proud that he's been as effective in his day as Canright was in his day. If they have to resort to lies, then that is pretty bad. (I'm not saying this woman didn't attend school with Dale or that she doesn't honestly believe that his life has fallen apart, but her "sources," at least, are not honest!)
Finally, this conversation about Canright reminds me of Dr. Jud Lake's new book (published May 2010) which my husband read and reviewed this summer. Lake asserts that all the modern EGW critics such as Dale Ratzlaff and Dirk Anderson are just recycling Canright's old charges. Lake uses the SDA bias against Canright to disparage the modern critics. It's such a dishonest tactic! If you'd like to read Joe's review of the latest SDA apologetics work on EGW, here's the link: http://sabbatismos.com/reviews-of-sda-publications-1/ellen-white-under-fire-by-jud-lake/ |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 138
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 1:55 pm: | |
Of course they are using some of Canright's old charges, because they are valid issues that the SDA church refuses to answer. They have a way of 'twisting' their words. or giving 'half truth' responses to make it appear that these issues have been resolved, when in fact they have not. They say they don't need EGW, too, but their 28 Fundamental Beliefs state the opposite-'Continuing source of Authority'.... |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2061
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 8:04 pm: | |
Sabbatismos,
Since having officially left Adventism ten years ago, Sylvia and I have repeatedly noticed that our SDA friends and relatives are sometimes not really honest with us and others about what Adventism really teaches. Without knowing alot more about Seventh-day Adventism than they do, we would be easily deceived without knowing the facts. Cults depend and thrive upon the ignorance of others in their outreach endeavors. Many Adventists not only deny certain teachings their organization holds, but they fabricate false stories about formers as well. In Dudley Canright's day, the Adventist rumor mill was busy telling people that Canright is coming back.
They really dislike a former who is happy in Jesus--a trait that is impossible to hide. After all, we are supposed to be cursed by God Himself. Ellen White sternly declared, "I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers...And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath,...and then gave it up...they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as a God that rules in heaven above." (Excerpt from A Word to the Little Flock, page 19). They initially scare people into their fold, and then later they scare people from leaving as well. It is a gospel of fear.
Dennis Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8380
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 8:16 pm: | |
To me it does not matter what an individual sda says the church teaches because the 28 fundamentals have not changed. Those are the bottom line of sda belief.
Diana L |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11492
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 9:01 pm: | |
Dennis, very accurate analysis. And yes, Diana...the church still teaches what it teaches. No matter how Adventists deny their beliefs or discredit those who leave and know Jesus, it is still the same thing it has always been.
It is deceptive, and it is heretical.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 8381
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 10:38 pm: | |
What is so sad, among other things, is that when a person, especially an older one like me, born and raised in adventism leaves they are told by the sdas that they did not know sda beliefs. Their teachers/preachers did not teach them correct sda beliefs. Arggggh!!!!!!
Diana L |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 1:04 am: | |
I agree with you all, about SDAs. Mostly with the statement. "It is a gospel of fear". I have another thought when read Canright's writings abouth soul - sleep. When it is truth that our spirit goes to heaven after body dies, than occured to me, that it was not necessery for Christ to be risen with His body from dead, and than shown Himself for 40 days, and than go up in cloud to heaven. Jesus is immortal spirit so he goes right away after his body dies on the cross, to heaven (!?) So why is risen Jesus fleshly body again? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11496
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2010 - 9:22 pm: | |
Gorancroatia, good question! God created us and the universe as physical beings and matter. He formed us from the actual substance of the earth; we are uniquely created of and for this planet, and all the universe was created for human life.
When God created us in His image, He breathed His own life—His spiritual DNA, if you will, into Adam and Eve. He created us to be physical, like our planet, but He put eternity into our hearts by giving us spirits like Him. He brought our spirits to life by breathing His life into Adam.
When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, their spirits died because they were disconnected from the life of God. Their bodies, however, went on living for many years. When we are saved by the Lord Jesus now, our spirits come to life eternally, but they still reside in a mortal body (Rom. 8:10).
Jesus' resurrection shows us that God's eternal purpose for humanity is that both our spirits and our physical bodies will be made new. He saves us body and soul! In fact, even the earth and the heavens will be made new. God redeems not only our spirits but also our physical bodies.
God doesn't tell us anything but our own "story". The Bible is clear that His intention for humanity was that it would be physical but with the image of His Spirit in us. So when Jesus, whose spirit is God, became a man, He took on human physical identity eternally, and in so doing, He has shown us our own future. As He dies, so we die. As He was resurrected, so we will be.
God doesn't tell us why He wants us to be eternally physical, but He does. Until our born-again spirits are united with our glorified bodies, we will be longing, as Romans 8 describes it, for our physical redemption from mortal flesh.
The identity of humanity is that we are physical bodies housing spirit-beings (read 2 Cor 5:1-10). Both body and spirit must be redeemed and made eternal before our salvation is fully realized. When our spirits are brought to life, we are saved, and God's Spirit is the guarantee that our bodies will also be redeemed (Eph 1:13-14).
So the reason Jesus' body had to go to heaven is that He became a man, and as He goes, so we go. We will not be complete until both our spirits and our bodies are glorified!
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 12:04 am: | |
Thanks Colleen, that is also good rebuke for Adventists claims that if one believes that spirit and bodies are apart identities, than it will led to sin, because one will think that body is of no mater to him. Body is also redeemed! Good news!
(Message edited by GoranCroatia on July 30, 2010) |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 2:04 pm: | |
Would there be any difference in saying
1. we are physical bodies housing spirit-beings
2. we are spiritual beings housed in a physical body.?
Hec |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2473
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 3:18 pm: | |
 As one of my favorite authors once wrote: "You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 855
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 11:41 pm: | |
I agree Adventism was and still is a religion of FEAR.
Just a few days ago my daughter who married a SDA almost 2 years ago... came to spend a few days with us and she told me that her husband had gotten a new "Bible" she said it had some words in it that were blue. She asked him what the blue words were and he told her they were Ellen White. Sooo, he has one of those new SDA "Bibles" :-(
I took her back home yesterday and I asked her if I could see it (he was not home) and she looked around and could not find it. He must have had it in his car or something.
Anyway... she was telling me that they got in an argument not long ago as he was telling her again how "hard times" are coming and they might soon need to move (up to the families "ranch" up in the mountains) he told her the old line of garbage about how "Sunday keepers" would be trying to kill the "Sabbath keepers" steal their food, etc...
She jumped onto him an asked him if he really believed that her family would try and kill them just because they go to church on Sabbath.... He said something to the effect of 'you never know,, even family members will turn against each other'. He told her that his family did not want anyone (other than their little group, and other SDA's) to even know how to get to the "ranch"... she told him she was NOT going to move someplace and not let her family know where she is and he told her that she could either do that or "go back home". I told her that she is welcome to come back home any time she decides she cant deal with it anymore... She has told him several times to not judge her family just because they do not go to church on "Sabbath" anymore.
I told her the next time he brings some of that stuff up, that she needs to tell him that if things get that rough, it is not the "Sunday keeping" Christians they need to worry about but people who are not Christians at all. I told her that true "Christians" will not run and hide with their stored up food, etc when things get bad, but will be preaching the Gospel of Christ even more and that "Christians" would be willing to share any food they have and not hoard it all for themselves knowing that others around them are hungry. I told her that we do not need to store up food, that if we trust in Jesus HE will provide all our needs no matter how rough things get.
We got our daughter when she was four years old and adopted her (along with 3 others) a few years later. She has a learning disability, but even with that,, I swear she can see more clearly about these matters that her husbands whole messed up SDA family can.
I knew about the teachings about what is supposed to happen (according to Ellen) in the "last days" but I never talked about it to my kids as I always had a hard time really believing it and I did not want to worry them, but at the same time, it was always one of those things that mulled around in the back of my mind and I wondered if it could be possible for "Sunday keepers" to have their hearts hardened toward us "Sabbath keepers" to the point that they would want to actually kill us.
My daughter and I stopped in to see my oldest son the other day and I mentioned to him about what her husband ha said and there was a total look of shock and disbelief on my sons face. Apparently he had never heard such a thing and was totally surprised that SDA's have that teaching...
He even called his Dad (my husband) this evening and (after talking about other things) brought up about SDA's thinking such a thing.. and my husband told him yes, that he knew they used to teach that, and apparently still do.
Hubby told our son that he was never allowed to go see a movie,, and that the first (and only)time his Mom took him to see one it was "The Ten Commandments" when it first came out.
Anyway, apparently the teachings of having a fear of Christians is still alive and well at least in some of the smaller out of the way SDA churches....scarey.... |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 856
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2010 - 11:45 pm: | |
I agree Helovesme2,
I have also heard it this way...
"We are spiritual beings having a temporary human experience"
Francie |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 139
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 12:34 am: | |
Francie what you wrote about your son-in-law literally sent chills down my spine.. Is he mentally stable? I hope I'm not being offensive to you but, his behavior sounds like more than just 'sunday paranoia'. I read in a psychology journal people with emotional and/or psychological issues tend to be more likely to join a cult or practice cultic behaviors, usually these types have their needs met on some level whether it is love and acceptance or the euphoria of 'having truth'(gives people a superiority complex) or just not having to 'be responsible' for making one's own decisions in life(that way the blame is never on them) and the fear of death itself. It's ironic my mom-in-law accused that a couple of people who left(that I know) 'the truth' were mentally ill, maybe they were 'in need of help' to begin with and Adventism fed their compulsions and 'met their needs' for a while and eventually left them desolate and and more confused?? One of these people is actually a pastor at a Christian Church now and he seems of 'right mind' to me. I will lift your family in prayer, including your son-in-law, he is clearly misguided and the Adventist church is only enabling his paranoid thought process.
God Bless,
Courtney |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 410
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 5:15 am: | |
They really dislike a former who is happy...
Dennis Fischer
They are just jealous that we (antinomian formers), no longer under the law, are free to run amuck to murder, rape and pillage. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 411
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 5:42 am: | |
... the Adventist church is only enabling his paranoid thought process. Courtney
While a member I started noticing that some pretty weird people were attracted to Adventism. It was during the waning years of my membership that I began to realize that Adventist extremism (Ellen, Sabbath, IJ, diet, the dreaded Sunday Law, anti-Catholic, we are the REMNANT-we have the TRUTH...) fostered radicalism/fanaticism/paranoia and attracted those who were already bent.
Just visit CARM for prime examples
John
(Message edited by jonvil on July 31, 2010)
(Message edited by jonvil on July 31, 2010) |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 746
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 6:34 am: | |
That "run for the mountains paranoia" is not just being taught in the out in the boon docks churches. It was alive and well at my former church.
Even the children's talk times were filled with that nonsense that the "Sunday keepers" were going to kill them when the Sunday laws were enforced. Even as an adult, some of those children's messages were frightening. |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 736
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 6:52 am: | |
"They are just jealous that we (antinomian formers), no longer under the law, are free to run amuck to murder, rape and pillage."
Hahaha! that's funny John. They really are baffled, I think, to see that we have Christ living in us, and are happy Christians! That's why they ignore us and/or treat us with contempt. We are going against what ellen said we would be like if we left the "truth". |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 412
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 8:03 am: | |
They really are baffled!!
Entrenched Adventists, regardless of our testimony, are convinced we are lost due to our rejection of (their) TRUTH and our acceptance of 'false' beliefs, our joy must be delusional. Actually, no Adventist has ever experienced joy in the Lord and are baffled by the concept.
In that they do not comprehend the reality of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as promised by Him to those who believe, they are not capable of recognizing that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, they have never experienced it and are baffled by the concept.
John
(Message edited by jonvil on July 31, 2010) |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 858
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 9:33 am: | |
Cortney, no I was not offended by you asking if my daughters husband (even hate to refer to him as my "son in law") is mentally stable.
I think his whole family is mentally unstable ! I didnt begin to realize that until it was just a couple of months before they were to get married.... I had not met any of his family and just thought that though he might be a little "slow" that he was a nice guy and probably just kind of shy or something...also since my daughter is "learning delayed" I felt he was good for her as they were going places together and I felt he was a "Christian" and didnt have to worry about him taking advantage of her ... so I accepted their growing relationship. Then... I met his parents ....and that is when I started encouraging her to slow things down a little... but of course by then she was "in love" and apparently his Mom and some in his church told him if he didnt want to lose her that he better marry her.
Theirs is a strange mariage for other reasons also that I wont go into here....
I do not worry at all that he would ever be physically "abusive" to her or anything like that.. he is just a really strange guy,, combining his VERY traditional SDA upbringing with his mental (slowness)etc... it is just frustrating. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11502
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 12:02 am: | |
Francie, your SIL's comments are actually regular Adventism, and it's alive and well. When we left Adventism, my MIL asked my husband one night, "So are you going to shoot us now in the time of trouble?"
She was not joking.
I do believe Adventism attracts people with certain types of personality "bents"--and even more that it actually bends people toward mental illness. I have believed for several years now that, if people take Adventism seriously and believe it is the truth, it will push them either into mental illness or agnosticism.
Either way, they are anxious, desperate, and they need Jesus.
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 860
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 5:06 pm: | |
"Either way, they are anxious, desperate, and they need Jesus. "
AMEN !!! |
Dragonfly
Registered user
Username: Dragonfly
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 9:18 pm: | |
One thing that I began to realize was that Jesus was not mentioned often. I listen to a sermon and it spoke about people being jurors. They had to be law abiding, discern from good and evil and couldn't be persuaded by people opinion. Not once did he say Jesus restore those who have faith. It was all about what we needed to do.
When I told the Adventist group I didn't believe EGW they told me they don't baptize people who don't claim she is a profit because they fall apart and leave the faith......I ask if they had done some kind of survey to prove such a comment. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1782
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 9:54 pm: | |
John,
We're rascals, scoundrels, villains, and knaves
Drink up me hearties, yo ho,
We're devils and black sheep, really bad eggs
Drink up me hearties, yo ho!
Sorry, I couldn't resist. That was the first thing I thought of when I read your post.
Leigh Anne |
Wiredog
Registered user
Username: Wiredog
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 10:15 pm: | |
I have to say I do like the fact that SDA's are typically not familiar with D.M. Canright's books. I find that it helps, especially in offering evidence refuting what most “pew warmer” SDAs believe are airtight arguments. I myself was not aware that my own former Adventist beliefs were clearly refuted as early as 1914.
I also don’t mind the fact that SDA’s frequently say Pastor Ratzlaff just recycles Canright’s stuff. If it’s true, it typically passes the test of time!
Now don’t get me wrong, I do want my SDA family and friends to discover freedom in Christ. However, I find it that having the chance to talk to them as a real person whom they can talk to and question, is a far more effective way of witnessing then throwing them a book to read by themselves. |
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