| Author | Message | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 504 Registered: 5-2009 |
While discussing today whether we have a spirit or not, my husband's daughter angrily hung up on him. He asked me to find some EGW quotes denying we have one. I have one EGW book, which I borrowed from my parents to do some research. While looking through it, I came upon this quote and it hit me so hard I have to share it (who else would understand?) Great Controversy pg. 503 I am thankful I have a place where I can talk about what I so passionately formerly believed and how I see in my previous beliefs utter blasphemy! It still catches me off guard at times and blows me away. I am not going to look at this book any more and want to get it out of my house. (Not that I want my parents to have it, either, but it's not my book, although I used it in academy.) In the repeated angry episodes my step-daughter is exhibiting, I am seeing first hand the "spirit of adventism". | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8468 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am so glad I threw out all my sda books within the first year after leaving adventism for good. Thank you awesome God. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6579 Registered: 9-2006  |
I think Adventists detect Christians as a real threat, and it manifests itself in anger much of the time. The thought that they are and have been all along is unbearable to them. Yes, there is a real spirit of deceit in and behind Adventism. It is a real evil spirit, not an imaginary boogy man. People can call me a spiritualist all they want, but the spiritual plane to me is more real than the physical plane. Back years ago I would have laughed at me, and called me crazy, but not now, its serious as a tooth ache. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6580 Registered: 9-2006 |
A few years back I lived next door to the pastor where I attended church. We would meet and talk between his house and mine. That Sunday, someone had received a miracle of healing at the church. We met as usual to talk over the back fence. His statement right away was, "Weren't you surprised at the person getting the miracle?" I said calmly, "No, I was not surprised." His face fell a little, and he said, "Why not?" I said, "I would have been surprised if the miracle had not taken place." He looked at me sort of dumbfounded, and said, "I see." The next Sunday he used that in his sermon. You see, if we pray for a miracle, then we are shocked if one happens, are we then really believing God? Or are we like children whistling in the dark? God is all too willing to verify his word, but he won't verify lack of faith. Once I was praying for my son, and I said, "Oh God, will I ever live to see him saved, and the Holy Spirit spoke to me immediately and said, "Have faith in God." You see, all I was doing was confessing unbelief. Six or seven years later, the change came. When you pray for your loved ones, "Have faith in God." Jesus said, John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. Ask in faith believing, and he will bring it to pass, that your joy may be full. You see, if our prayers we pray aren't ever answered, your joy won't be full, because you have a longing in your heart for that thing. So that daughter that withdrew in anger, ask in faith, believing God for her salvation, and thank him for the answer. He will, that your joy may be full. Full is full, and half full ain't full, he wants to fill your heart with overflowing joy. Doyousee Nowisee?  River | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 160 Registered: 9-2006 |
River, Your saying, "the spiritual plane is more real than the physical plane" is very strange, but is starting to make sense. The evil spirits are there, and I would have laughed too at those who talked about them, like my mom, and often did laugh at her. But who can we trust to influence our reality so we know what to believe? Only Someone who's never deceived. If evil is more active in the world now, then appearances will be increasingly deceiving. Martin C | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6583 Registered: 9-2006 |
If you really and truly believe the scriptures concerning Paul, how then can it be strange? Because this is what he says, "Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. When you are around Adventists, you are around people that have been taken captive by the same seducing spirit that taken Ellen White captive so many years ago, the same seducing spirit that took William Miller captive, and the result was the cornfield vision. It wasn't the swoonings and the visions that she had that had taken her captive, but a spirit of rebellion. When she refuted the Methodist church and insisted Miller was correct, in spite of what the Bible says that no man knows the day nor the hour of his coming. The problems began for her when she accepted William Millers teachings as truth. William Miller listened to a seducing spirit when that spirit, using the bible mind you, whispered to him, look, I'll show you a secret. Miller believed that spirit was the Holy Spirit, when it fact it was a deceiving spirit, not the Holy Spirit. White opened the door to that seducing spirit when she would not listen to those whose years of experience, and who were used to eating from the meat of the word, their sense exorcised thereby, and whom she should have submitted too for wisdom concerning the scripture. These seducing spirits began to, through her, seduce others, and the snow ball grew, in spite of the predictions not coming true. Now if, as you read the history of Adventism, you constantly refer back to what Paul tells us, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." The subsequent generations have been taken captive one at a time to these seducing spirits. I have heard it time and time again on this forum, "How could I have believed such poppycock?" Well, I'll tell you how, Because For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Against powers dummy! Not some little shriveled up spirit hunkered over in a corner! People go around howling,"Oh we fight not against flesh and blood brother Thudpucker!” When they wouldn't know a seducing spirit if one came up and bit them in the butt and took a chunk out of their hind end. Why? Because strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Thats why! The world is literally full of people who listen to seducing spirits, it happens all the time even in church organizations. If a spirit comes up and tells you to bed and wed your secretary instead of your wife, and you get to believing that, you better run like a turkey! You're messing around with a power, with a ruler, with wicked in high places (invisible works of hell behind the scenes) You can only fight this war on the basis of appropriating the provision of the cross and Jesus blood, and Personal faith and aggressive prayer warfare that assails demonic strongholds. People come out of Adventism, and bring that rebellious spirit with them, refusing to submit to those of them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil for teaching, and for correction. Any time we think we are above being corrected, we set ourselves up to be seduced by these seducing spirits I don’t care who it is or how smart you are, that includes me, you, everybody and his dog. If we are not submitting to one another then we are not submitting to the body of Christ for instruction, prayer and protection, so we have no right to cry baby when the devil comes in and gets the best of us. I have seen more rebelliousness, more stubbornness, more block headedness, more stupidity, more ignorance than I have beheld in all the previous 35 years of being in the church right here on this forum. “Well I’ll just go over here and sit by myself. “ Yeh right. Some people come on here, and if they are corrected they say, “Oh, I’ll just leave this forum! I’ll not stay here if you are going to talk down to me.” Horse pucky! “Well, I’ll just start my own forum, if yer gonna be that way.” Yehhh right! Get a little correction and here ya go, starting you own forum, and bad mouthing this one! Spiritual wickedness in high places. Submitting to seducing evil spirits instead of the Holy Spirit of God. God doesn’t require us to all be correct all the time and to know everything, but he does require us to not be proud and haughty against his people, and those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. The leaven leavens the whole lump, and EVEN IF WE FEEL they are wrong, we still need to go to God, and say, “Lord, what do I need to do to stay straight with you?” Let the Holy Spirit make our hearts tender, because a seducing spirit will make our hearts into stone and give us an unpliable and and unteachable spirit. Then the Lord can no longer use us until we get it right with him. I will encourage a person who is under attack and is down, but if that person starts wallowing in it like a pig in a mud hole, I’ll kick him in the spiritual slats so hard it will jar his dead grandmas eye teeth. You learn who to trust by learning and knowing the voice of the Holy Spirit, an entity you cannot see. It becomes second nature (Or to be more exact, your saved and born again nature) you begin to exercise your senses to know good and evil, because the Holy Spirit, your teacher, knows good and evil. You begin to think on a spiritual plane. If you come out of there and swallow up the cessation-ist crap, all you did was exchange one seducing spirit for another. Yeah, you heard me, I didn’t stutter, sessation-ism is worse than all the Ellen whites put together. That putrid teaching does more to nullify the teaching of the bible than Adventism, because it renders the word of God to non effect. River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 947 Registered: 12-2007 |
River: "Yeah, you heard me, I didn’t stutter" WhooHoo !!! The old River is BACK ! Where ya been hidin River ??? LOL Skeeter | ||
| Sabbatismos Registered user Username: Sabbatismos Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2010 |
Nowisee, that GC quote is truly appalling. I, too, can finally see how wrong that "theology" is. But, it would've seemed totally sound to me while in Adventism. Because of Mrs. White's teachings on the spirit and soul sleep, SDAs are incredibly fearful of acknowledging the reality of the the spirit that continues after death. In The Great Controversy, Mrs. White says that "Sunday sacredness and the immortality of the soul" are the two big lies the Catholic Church will use to lead everyone astray. SDAs do have gut reactions like your step-daughter when they are confronted with truths that they deem "dangerous." ~ Jennifer | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 506 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, River, I see and I admit that I still have a lot of growing to do. Thanks for the encouragement. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11602 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, your post was profound in many ways—you are right. Thank you. Your statement about people leaving Adventism and bringing the rebellious spirit with them is all too true--it's something each one of us has to admit to God. It's often subtle...but it's powerful. A few years back, our women's ministry leader said to me that over the years, she has noticed that many women who leave Adventism have an ongoing problem with submitting their lives to every word of Scripture. As I thought about that, I realized that she has probably seen that deep underlying conviction many of us have when we leave that we KNOW certain things about the Bible that the evangelicals don't know. Oh, we realize we didn't really "get" the gospel before, but we still have a sort-of conviction that we have "mature" insight into issues that mere evangelicals don't have. I have realized how wrong that idea is...and as you said, River, we have to be willing to submit to be taught, even in areas we think we already know. Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2006 |
"If you really and truly believe the scriptures concerning Paul, how then can it be strange?" Because, River, I am admitting that I am just learning to sense the spiritual plane. It isn't because I don't believe scriptures or am a cessationist. It pains me to think that I used to laugh at my mom when she mentioned evil spirits, she was so far beyond me. This brings shame and tears. Since then, I have sensed their presence often, as well as the Holy Spirit. But, my post was poorly written. Hey, I'm only four years old, so it isn't easy. "People come out of Adventism, and bring that rebellious spirit with them, refusing to submit to those of them that are of full age." The rebellious Adventist spirit, Sounds very right. But are we not submitting to those full of age on this forum? You are highly respected here and have a lot of influence with us regarding the spiritual realm, including me. Yes, we are spiritual special ed students and immature, but not submitting to elders? Do you mean something said in this discussion, or just most of us in general? "...he does require us to not be proud and haughty against his people, and those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Agreed. And does this allow for any protest when you, as one of our elders, let your anger at us get the best of you? I seem to have really irritated you, and I suspect not for the first time. Am I misreading you? Please let me know. If I protest your harsh words, will you say that is another example of more "rebelliousness, more stubbornness, more block headedness, more stupidity, more ignorance..."? Is this about something we said in this thread? You've given me plenty to think about, but even a four year old, when he's getting kicked in his spiritual slats, might protest when things get out of hand. Martin C | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6591 Registered: 9-2006 |
Heh Heh! Martin, I was not even referring to you, or to make this a personal post to you, or for that matter, anyone else. Yes you did misread me. Your post was written fine. What I was referring too was general trends. You have a tender heart toward the Lord, hang onto it, you’re going to need it. I get your message, and I will try to tone it down. Colleen said it best, listen to her, not me. I don’t consider myself and ‘elder’ or spiritual leader nor anything else. Frankly, I don’t want the job. Frankly, I don’t even know why I am here, I just can’t figure that out! I’m not angry with anybody Martin, not you, not anybody. Ever since my first sermon, and that includes my first sermon, they have been hard, cutting to the bone, and afterwards I just want to run, find me a cave, get in it and never come out. You can just never realize how much I love the people on this forum, not only them, but the ones who have gotten what they needed and moved on out into the general evangelical population the best that they can. I miss them. I miss their post. So many have passed this way. River | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thankyou River, that puts my mind at ease. I must say, though, you obviously have a job here on this forum, it's just that the Holy Spirit hasn't announced the exact job description, He just gives you lots of work to do. I continue to be blessed by the divine madness that overcomes you. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2008  |
Wow, I've been away from the forum for a bit and look how great these discussions are. Nowisee, thanks for sharing. SDAs say that we Christians and especially formers go around looking for ways to attack EGW's writings. Even the books she copied from others are full of errors and one just has to read and they will stumble upon some hairbrained though sooner or later. River, thanks for the reminder that we our real battle is in the spirit world. The SDA mind cannot grasp this concept beyond the thought that there is a "great controversy" going on between the Devil and Jesus--and even that battle is somewhat between corpereal beings that are for now invisible to us. When I believed God's wod for what it had to say that we are in fact spirits, housed in earthly tents (2 Cor 5), the battle of wrestling with spirit world became clear. Now we can't be like some of thes name it/claim it preachers who find a devil hiding around every corner but the devil is real and we need to be aware of just how distracting the world we "see" is. If we are in Jesus, we have been reborn and as I turn 40 next week I sure can tell it's not by body that's reborn (back pain, gray hairs in my goatee, groaning when I have to bend down or get up from kneeling), it is the real me, my spirit that is seated with Him. When an SDA wants to argue with me at times I may get excited or even have a righteous anger (unless my flesh wins over and it becomes a different kind of anger). Without exception, whether it be the same day or within then next 24 hours I find myself praying for them and feeling saddened that the spirit of Adventism is alive in them. What can we do? Pray that we will be in God's will so that we dont' get in the way of whatever it is that He wants us to do and say to the people He loves even more than us. Enoch | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 516 Registered: 5-2009 |
Enoch, 40?!? Well, happy birthday, you young'un! (I have vague memories of 40! ) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8488 Registered: 3-2004 |
Enoch, You are just a few months older then my son. HAPPY BIRTHDAY AND MANY MORE. Like Nowisee I have very vague memories of 40!!! :0 Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11636 Registered: 12-2003 |
Happy Birthday, Enoch--a few days early! Just think, you've got a whole FAMILY here to celebrate YOU and who you are in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1315 Registered: 3-2009 |
40? When was that? Well, even if I don't remember when that was, I wish you a happy birthday. You sure can remember! Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 344 Registered: 6-2008 |
Having come out of SDAism, into and out of agnosticism, and now still learning the "fulness of the Gospel," I find myself less and less trusting human teachers and their multitude of often-contradictory and confusing interpretations of Scripture. I am not debating the validity of Scripture! But I see disparate interpretations of Scripture among people who are on the Road to Truth. And I do not and cannot believe that anyone on this Forum or anywhere in the whole world has a corner on The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth! Thus, I have to take everything said here or anywhere else with a "grain of salt" until I prayerfully search Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept, as thoroughly as I can, led by the Holy Spirit. That is my shield against all the various winds of doctrine blowing about, until I have thoroughly studied for myself. I don't care if others call me a "skeptic," or "wishy-washy", or whatever: "sticks and stones" may be annoying but I can't allow them to deter me from this course. Some people seem to think, "WOW! Look how far I (we) have come! I (We) must have arrived!" God forbid! That may well be one of Satan's most dangerous delusions! That was one of the most arrogant and disgusting things about SDAism! Would I go back to that assumption? Literally, with God's help, "Hell, NO! I won't go!" Many doctrines can be, are, and will continue to be debated here and elsewhere,sometimes lucidly and sometimes heatedly, till the debaters are blue in the face, without any one point of view absolutely "proven" beyond shadow of doubt and requiring no further evaluation. So what? As long as we are respectful of one another (and some, unfortunately, regularly cross that line), what is wrong with rationally discussing differences of interpretation? No two of us occupy the same spot on that marvelous journey! Why are several rough stones put together into a tumbler with grit? So they can together get the rough places in each one smoothed and polished! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1316 Registered: 3-2009 |
That's what I wonder and would like for someone to help me with. If the Holy Spirit lives in us and guides us to all truth, how come so many of us come to different conclusions on the same Bible passage? Isn't the Spirit guiding us to all truth? But your truth cannot be my truth if they are different conclusions. Which is the truth that the HS guided us to then? Hec |
