| Author | Message | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2009 |
Just thought I'd share the question I asked on my Blog this morning. A Question about the Holy Spirit I can't wait to see what responses I'll get. Ross | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 799 Registered: 7-2008  |
Your question is toooo broad. Try to narrow it down and be more specific. That would really help others to respond in a meaningful way !! Animal | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1784 Registered: 6-2006  |
Ross, I totally get what you're asking and I'm curious to see the responses too. Most of the SDA's I know (my in-laws) let EGW read the Bible for them, so I can't imagine how they would answer that except for the usual proof texts. My guess is that they "make it fit" to Ellen's writings... Leigh Anne | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 533 Registered: 5-2009 |
I really didn't understand anything much about the Holy Spirit of the Bible--we sang the words in some of the hymns, and were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My best answer is that I thought the Holy Spirit was an "it" or a force or something. I can't believe how ignorant that sounds, but it's the truth. How many sermons or SS lessons taught us about the Holy Spirit? I don't remember much... | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1322 Registered: 3-2009 |
I remember studying the Sabbath School lessons once with some visitors. There was a group of at least 12 people there. The guy who was leading that morning asked the question, "What is the Holy Spirit for you?" and he got about 12 different answers. And these were all people who were third and fourth generation SDAs. Hec | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2009 |
Personally I think SDAs are so afraid of evil spirits that they deny the Holy Spirit as well. And if humans are only body & breath, then no spirit is a good spirit. J9 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6647 Registered: 9-2006  |
I can't tell you what he is, but I can tell you who he is, he is God. I've heard my Adventist friends say in prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide them, but I think they are just mouthing words they've heard used. You don't address Holy Spirit as God, he is Holy Spirit, you don't address Jesus as Holy Spirit, you don't address God as Holy Spirit or vice versa, but there is only one God. These are the three persons of the trinity, yet there is no difference, we are to have the same respect for Holy Spirit as for God. Holy Spirit is a person, with feelings like a person, he can be insulted, hurt, or glorified, because there is but one God. I am pretty certain Adventist don't know the real Jesus of the Bible neither, because they differentiate the trinity. I'm pretty sure it hurts Holy Spirits feelings to be referred to as an "it" even if the person that using that term is ignorant, maybe even insults him, now you can laugh that off all you want too, but I'm just telling you, he has all power in his hands, he is the same person that moved upon the waters in the very beginning. He came to live in us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts, why is way above me, but he is God in us,and God with us. If we reject him, he will pull away from us, if we receive him he will draw close to us. He is light to us, the light in us, and if we neglect him, it is like a light that gets dimmer, and dimmer, and you can get to where you no longer feel his presence in your life. He is as close to Jesus as you're ever going to get here on this earth. As long as Jesus remained on the earth, he was a single entity in his earthly form, it was necessary for him to go to the father, so then he could come and live in all of us, which he did, like a mighty rushing wind he came into his people. His coming likened to a mighty rushing wind, denotes hurry, to claim his love, his bride, that he died for, bled for. Praise God for Holy Spirit, so many people don't understand the baptizem in the Holy Spirit at all, they are afraid of this Baptism, and they miss what God has for them. Sad, but all too true. This was/is one of his promise's, but he is a gentleman, and he will not force himself on anyone. Thats my story, and I'm stickin' toit. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 170 Registered: 9-2006 |
The Holy Spirit was always a touchy topic with my family and the churches we attended. We were always afraid of "spiritualism," and anything that felt too enthusiastic or emotional. The last days would have Satan's false spiritual gifts in the apostate churches that could fool us. So we were very careful how we talked about the Spirit. If one was careless, one might inadvertantly invite that other spirit into one's church...or bedroom in the middle of the night. We heard the stories. Believe me, I was very careful. So it felt best to leave that spirit stuff to those gifted with "it," someone who obviously had a better relationship with God, such as Ellen White. She told us that the Spirit acted as our conscience, and would help us improve our intellects to understand truth and overcome sin. Then, someday, we might receive the Latter Rain and be empowered to Finish the Work. But after the Sunday Law and Death Penalty, the Spirit would withdraw from the earth, and we'd be on our own. In 1981, I thought I withdrew from Him. These days of being alive, I know He lives in me, gives me a spirit of adoption, intercedes through my pathetic prayers, and works in me both willing and doing. Sure, some days there is gloom and weak knees, but He shows me Christ through His Word, and fear has to flee. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1787 Registered: 6-2006 |
Martin, you wrote "We were always afraid of "spiritualism," and anything that felt too enthusiastic or emotional. The last days would have Satan's false spiritual gifts in the apostate churches that could fool us." Isn't it interesting how Ellen White would use the Holy Spirit against himself to scare people? She literally steered people away from the Holy Spirit and made them afraid of him. Leigh Anne | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2009 |
Martin, you said what I was trying to express. Leigh Anne, isn't it just demonic? She steered us away from Jesus (with Sabbath, IJ, etc) & away from the Holy Spirit . SDAs - so afraid of the mark of the beast & the antichrist. What is more ANTI than what EW taught? J9 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11656 Registered: 12-2003  |
Not to mention that in Adventism, the Sabbath is the seal of God. In the Bible, the Holy Spirit is God's seal (Eph 1:13-14; 4:20). Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Doesn't putting Sabbath in the place of the Holy Spirit come awfully close to blasphemy? I'm not accusing individual Adventists of this sin...I'm speaking more in corporate terms--i.e. EGW and those who have insisted on perpetuating her teachings. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6652 Registered: 9-2006 |
If I lace everybody in a building drinks with a deadly poison, and they all drink it, and die, then can you say they are all dead, or just part dead? If I give you a bulldozer to build a road fit for car travel, and theres a rock in the road, you say "I've got as bulldozer so I'll just go around the rock." Does that build a road fit for car traffic? Who makes up a corporate? How close is close?  River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1328 Registered: 3-2009 |
"Mostly dead" River, "mostly dead." Remember? "Inconceivable". Hec | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2006 |
Leigh Anne and 1John--Yes, that's a good way to put it, she steered people away from the Holy spirit and made them afraid of Him and His work. I was thinking today how pervasive this fear of anything spiritual is in the SDA mind. When Christians talk about the new birth, Adventist defenses go right up, for they suspect we experienced shallow emotionalism, a demonic spirit, or both. In the respectable culture, there is already a feeling of contempt out there for the born-again. We are the "retrograde" and "willfully ignorant" who stifle peace and progress. Colleen, I think you're right. And using the word blasphemy is another thing that tends to invite scorn. My wife has encountered this recently. That word is now apparently further evidence of our ignorance, intolerance, etc. It is difficult to know when to speak out one's convictions and when to keep one's peace. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1788 Registered: 6-2006 |
Martin, that makes a lot of sense. I remember an instance a few years ago when I tried and discuss something spiritual with my husband. He came back with "how do you know it isn't a demon?" At the time I was a little blindsided and couldn't understand why he would say that. In fact, it was really off the wall in relation to what we were talking about. So now I'm realizing what an "auto-pilot" answer it was. Leigh Anne | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 559 Registered: 1-2006  |
Hi Leigh Anne About two years ago I was on the telephone with a lady who had been through the Adventist Theological Seminary in Berrien Springs, Michigan (where I grew up). While we were on the phone, she said "Can you hear them? Can you hear that? Hear the noise? Those are demons. They're in my house." Her words, not mine. I recall discussions on this forum about the green cord and table tipping in association with Ellen, both apparently symbols of the dark side. I wonder if the constant preoccupation with satan doesn't take a toll on adventists after awhile. I am just amazed at the attention satan gets and the many references to his power in adventism. Bit of a trademark, eh? I can remember reading about communication with the dark side from accounts given in Battle Creek. Without references, just my memory, I recall reading that a spirit appeared in Battle Creek and said he was the departed spirit of a man just killed on a train accident within the last few hours, and the news of the train wreck had not yet reached the newspapers. Yet the adventists in Battle Creek knew about it! I read it years ago, and am not going to go on a chase for references. But I remember thinking how wonderful (as an adventist) that Ellen and her buddies were so very well connected! Ain't that just wonderful?!! Surely must be a sign! (just kidding) Bob | ||
| Sparrow Registered user Username: Sparrow Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2008  |
I do not recall being taught anything about the work of the Holy Spirit during my Adventist elementary or secondary school years. I do know I was baptized (at age 11) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Growing up Adventist, the Spirit always ranked third in the "Godhead". As an Adventist adult, one quarter's Sabbath School topical study was about the Holy Spirit. I learned that the Holy Spirit is my Helper and would help me recall scripture, help convict me of truth or error, and help me have courage or healthy fear. This help was in conjunction with my faithfulness and works. Of course, the lesson was laced with EGW quotes. Today, I have fullness of joy as a Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, saved by grace through faith in Christ alone child of God. | ||
| Sunnimoreno Registered user Username: Sunnimoreno Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2008 |
my sda friends accused me of confusing emotion with the Holy Spirit and they say that I should always base any dealings with the Holy Spirit with tested facts in the Bible. I also used to think that way before my baptism in the Holy Spirit, but if you take a look at the "fruit" of the Holy Spirit - Love, joy, peace, etc you will note that they are emotions. when I point this out to my friends they couldn't answer back. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 127 Registered: 5-2009 |
What an interesting insight about the fruit of the Holy Spirit! Thank you for that Sunni. J9 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1790 Registered: 6-2006 |
Bob, Ellen definitely had a strange fascination with Satan! The Bible doesn't even refer to him as often as she did. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11667 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sunni--Love, joy, and peace can be considered emotions, but patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control are generally not emotions. I'm not saying, however, that the Holy Spirit doesn't touch and awaken our emotions, because He does. In fact, I believe that one of God's gifts to us when we're born again is that He heals our emotions as we learn to live by His power. But the gift of the Spirit is actually much more comprehensive than our emotions. He gives us the power and trust to live in reality instead of merely in response to our "flesh-y" emotions. EGW taught, and I was carefully taught, that my emotions were not part of knowing Jesus, and that I couldn't trust my emotions. That teaching was heresy. Our emotions are data, and God gave them to us so we can have some idea of the nature of what happens to us. Adventism teaches people to distrust good things and to trust deception. Colleen | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2009 |
Colleen, I think that is part of what I am struggling with since coming on this forum. I was carefully taught just as you were - not to trust emotions. When I landed in treatment 20 years ago we were taught that emotions are not right or wrong, they just ARE - even anger. And that like our senses of sight, taste, smell, touch, hearing they are useful to alert us to things that need to be dealt with. This was in a SDA treatment center, which at that time is the only place I would have trusted. I am forever grateful to God for the founders of it who were grounded in the truth that I needed. Because I was all 'in my head' for my entire SDA life & disconnected from my emotions, I think that is why I am having a hard time here on the forum. Added to that we as well-trained SDAs were completely disconnected from spirit & the Holy Spirit. On another thread Jeremy & I are sparring about the trinity. I take everything in through lifetime filters of head knowledge & 'being right.' So, much of the discussions here focus on being theologically 'right' to me. And YES that is important. I just didn't know how many ways & to what depth SDAism is wrong & it's almost overwhelming. I figured there were about 3 things (AFTER EGW) that needed correction: IJ, Sabbath, state of the dead. NOW it's so much I'm just reeling. I am still back at simply finding & focusing on Jesus. And I never ever imagined my theology of the trinity was wrong. MINE wasn't - but SDAism apparently IS & I never knew or suspected that. I appreciate that often, Colleen, you refer to the emotional & experience aspect of it all besides just the theology. For me you seem to have a gift for connecting that way & for explaining things fairly succinctly. That is not a criticism of any one else - different strokes for different folks. Might be why I react to River also. He hits hard on theology almost mercilessly - yet I am at times connecting with his soft kindness & mercy expressed to others that touches ME in my spirit somehow. I am having a spiritual awakening. :-) Just as 12 Step programs have separate meetings for 'old timers' because they can sometimes overwhelm & discourage the newbies, maybe it is good here on the forum to think of this every now & then. J9 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11672 Registered: 12-2003 |
J9--I understand. Debriefing from Adventism is like debriefing from any other cult or mind control system. It takes at least two to five years to become oriented into a biblical worldview. Like you, I believed when I first left Adventism that there were a handful of things that were wrong, and I set about studying the Bible and becoming "firmed up" in the biblical support for the "right understanding" of those things. God is faithful and gentle, however--and He never shows us all at once the depth and the truth about our own brokenness and deception. As I studied that handful of "things", I began to realize that there were subtle, under-the-surface "ties" to other beliefs and perceptions I had. It was shocking to me, actually, as I began to realize that even though I could have articulated "truth" to any Christian who talked to me, my deep understanding of that "truth" was actually different from theirs. I didn't discover this by actually talking with them and discovering we believed differently; I discovered it by Bible study and gradually "seeing" that it taught things about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit that I didn't know. It's been very gradual; but it's been very foundational, and I've discovered that truly, everything I believed was tainted. The good news, though, is that God redeems all that past deception, and it's not wasted. He teaches me truth much faster than it took me to become indoctrinated—and He gives me a really acute radar for false teaching. I think most of us here experience this! As for emotions—I am SO on that page with you. I was taught never to trust my emotions, and I made some extremely unwise choices in my life because I believed my feelings didn't really matter. I can remember praying desperately for God to remove a certain situation from me if He didn't want me to be part of it. I had extremely intense negative emotions about the situation; visceral feelings of avoidance and revulsion—but because I didn't trust my feelings and my "head" had good reasons for going ahead, I did. Only later did I look back and realize that God literally answered my prayer—not in the way I asked—by removing the problem—but by giving me clear understanding emotionally that it was unsafe. I chose to ignore the emotions, and it cost dearly. I finally realized that God gave me those emotions and He wanted me to know that emotions are part of what is from Him. They are as much reality as is my "head"—and He uses them as much as He uses my head. What I didn't know then was that I have a spirit, and His Spirit speaks truth to me through my spirit...when I am alive in Him. I was a pretty anxious, uptight "yung-un" with almost no confidence in my own ability to make decisions or know what was right and good. God has had a long and ongoing "job" teaching me to trust Him, to be able to "feel", and to surrender to Him my beliefs and my feelings for His redemption. He heals us not only doctrinally but literally spiritually and emotionally. I'm finding that God's revealing Truth to me results in my being able not to be either ruled by my emotions or by my rationalizing. Instead, I can submit my subjective "knowing" and "feeling" to Him and ask Him to teach me truth and to plant me in reality. That prayer—that God will teach me what is true and reveal and ground me in what is real—are ongoing prayers for me, and He is showing me gradually that REALITY is bigger than I can see. Neither my head nor my emotions are the revelation of "my truth". Rather, when I am born again, Jesus shows me how to trust Him even when my emotions are raw and my head feels bombarded. He is faithful—and He shows me what He wants me to know and heals my emotions so my feelings reflect His will for me. Colleen |
